Smart Meters Wreaking Havoc With Home Electronics 375
wiredmikey writes "About 200 customers of the Central Maine Power Company recently noticed something odd after the utility installed smart meters in their homes: household electronics, including wireless devices, stopped working, or behaved erratically. Many Smart Meters broadcast in the 2.4GHz frequency range. Unfortunately, so do many of the consumer gadgets we take for granted these days including routers, electric garage doors, fire alarms, clocks, electric pet fences, answering machines, and baby monitors — even medical devices. The electromagnetic congestion in the home is in some ways similar to the growing electronic congestion in hospitals as they acquire more and more electronic monitors all operating within a few feet of each other. Medical equipment has been known to shut down or give erroneous results when positioned close to another piece of equipment. Such interference is not new, just getting worse — rapidly."
Other stuff is OK (Score:5, Insightful)
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TFA seems to be confused. Clocks use low frequency signals to set the time automatically, most commonly 60KHz or 77KHz. Answering machines are presumably built in to wireless phone base stations, so really it is only the handsets that need 2.4GHz to work.
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You're talking about different frequency range. FM radio is not congested because it's very strictly regulated.
Re:Other stuff is OK (Score:4, Informative)
Clocks also use a specific frequency for doing so, it's 60 kHz for the UK ones and I think the German one is 77 kHz (it's called DCF77 anyway). They're not exactly local transmissions - you can pick them up nearly 2000km away, afaicr.
Unlike the 2.4 GHz band, those frequencies are reserved and licenced. 2.4 GHz is a free for all.
only going to get worse... (Score:5, Informative)
Most utilities are moving to smart meters. It's a technological nirvana propounded by PHBs and the companies selling the crap. Just think, you don't need to waste hard cash on people actually reading meters. Hell no, you can drive down a road and read all the meters with a laptop. Except you can't because some of the technology is immature and signal strength from these devices seldom reaches the manufacturers claims.
We were told by a manufacturer that their technology was secure because their software is proprietry. It's a recipe for disaster...especially given that a quick google for "security research smart meter," returns some interesting results. Welcome to the brave new world of smart metering. Minus the "smart."
Re:only going to get worse... (Score:5, Informative)
According to TFA, the smart meters will do more than that. They are intended in the medium term to allow power control within the house. So that the meter can signal to, say, the freezer that power demand is particularly high, and if it could hold off consuming power for a while it would be appreciated. And if you have electric cars, could they not charge at peak times, but turn on quickly as the peak subsides rather than doing it on a crude timer (or, in the most optimistic scenario, turn around and return power to the grid at extreme peaks).. In principle, this could save trillions in new power stations and power distribution.
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Re:only going to get worse... (Score:4, Informative)
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What a great application for IP over power lines!
I still don't understand what they want wireless to. Unless they wan't my freezer to be controlled by my neighbor.
Re:only going to get worse... (Score:5, Informative)
IP over power lines is a horrible idea! The noise it creates across multiple bands is, quite frankly, illegal. Vendors made promises about keeping the noise within certain limits and they failed across the board. That's why IP over power lines is almost completely gone now.
The sad thing is that it took the HAMs pointing out the violations to get the authorities to act.
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Most freezers have a large allowance for power cuts. If you get a power cut and do not open the freezer, it should stay cold for 24 hours. If you cut that margin to 18 hours, that will get them through the evening peak, and possibly stop you getting the power cut at all.
The care would probably be only the top, say, 25% of the capacity so you always have 75% if you need to go out in a hurry. Since peaks are in the evening, if you do not intend to use the car again until morning, overnight charging will have
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See previous response: the only suggestion is cutting margins from generous to good. Your freezer has masses of space "cold capacity". Most peaks are in the evening, and your car would be recharged by morning. Cutting the top 1% of peaks, using perhaps 10% of your car's battery 20 evenings a year, would be very valuable to utilities. Of course, you don't have to opt in.
Your response is typically American - me, me, me, and damn the community, even if it is to my financial advantage to share. You have bought
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Actually, we have an opt in program in our area where you can get a free fancy thermostat if you allow the hydro company to cycle down your air conditioner during peak demand. https://www.peaksaver.com/ [peaksaver.com]
You might get some other benefit too. Now I always presumed the idea is that this is coordinated, so I assume it is designed such that if you have say 100 000 homes, you can cut air conditioner power use by 25% by cycling 25 000 homes off for 15 minutes at a time. That way, there is likely little perceived
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Actually there are very good reasons for having a smart meter, reasons that are not only for the utility company's benefit.
The place I work creates products for detecting leaks in pipes. We are currently looking at decides that interface with smart water meters to detect leaks inside people's homes. You could have a leak and not know about it if it is small, or if you happened to be away when it started. One not uncommon scenario is for people to go on a winter holiday and come back to find that a pipe froz
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Here they just make an estimate and come to read once a year. You can also enter it yourself if it's wrong.
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Funny but true : yes that's what some people ARE afraid off.
In theory, judging on your consumption they might be able to deduce when you're most likely not at home and that would then be the best time to break in.
Personally I think most thugs have much more sophisticated methods to scout their targets.
(similar panic has struck us poor Belgians now too as Google Street View for Belgium went live yesterday...oh man, the reactions ...)
Re:only going to get worse... (Score:5, Interesting)
Energy firms in the UK already report unusually high power usage to the police, as it's often a sign of someone running a canabis factory.
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Police responded by sending helecopters with thermal imagers around, looking for the substantial heat put out by a pot farm.
This is the reason for one well-publicised incident in which a full armed response team was sent around to conduct a raid on a guina-pig shed, having first smashed the house door down and handcuffed the family. They did at least issue a formal apology for the mistake.
Does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)
If I have a smart meter I could come home to my dog roasting away under the smoldering remains of his electric dog collar???
Or Grampa break dancing because his pacemaker is trying to tap out the digits of the last hours power consumption???
Eeeeewwwww!
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Daily Mail readers quickly make themselves known.
Shielding (Score:2)
Re:Shielding (Score:4, Interesting)
"POE. Try it, bitches" would have been more appropriate. Assuming the transformers allow high frequency signals to pass, a relatively high power/low frequency/low bandwith (The supplier doesn't need to check your usage more frequently than once a year, multiplied by the amount of data (1K would easily be enough) multiplied by the amount of subscribers in the area) POE communications channel would let them check all the houses without driving a car through the neighbourhood at all.
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Why wireless???? (Score:4, Insightful)
Smart meters control the power going to electrical devices... logically, these are part of the electric grid, and are connected to powerlines. Why not add another wire to carry the signal, if you need to build a bunch of powerlines anyway?
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Better yet, why not use the powerlines themselves.
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Electric meters are not the only meters being read by wireless. More and more gas meters are remotely read, and there isn't a wired option.
Utility companies like reading meters from a distance because of the hassle customers give the meter readers. Biting dogs, locked gates, high fences, holly bushes, flower beds, all kinds of crap on the meter, etc., etc. are a PITA for meter readers.
I'm not a meter reader. I check your gas service and meter for leaks. If I can't get to it because of a locked gate or a vicious dog, then you're on your own. I just write down why I can't check it and go on my merry way. See you in five years . . . . if you haven't blown up.
Ultrasound in water pipes, maybe the same in gas pipes. Then just have one collection point for 4-5 houses. Still no reason to have wireless.
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Better yet, why not use the powerlines themselves.
Because BPL causes radio interference.
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You don't even need another wire, just a simple modem/filter at the node.
Re:Why wireless???? (Score:4, Informative)
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We have direct-read meters in our condo. They're connected to a fiber net running throughout the building. The door cameras and intercom, water and gas meters and the fire alarm all use the same fiber. As a bonus, since they ran more fiber than the utility stuff uses, this also gives us very cheap fiber broadband. It's behind a building-wide router so I can forget about having a server or anything, but it's still a high-speed connection at a pittance.
Why, just why!? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do 'smart' meters need to broadcast anything? If they're planning on using these things to communicate to high power devices, or any electrical device, the damn things are already wired together. Use that.
If we're talking meter reading, then use the mobile network. Powering up to send a text with the reading every 3 months isn't exactly a big deal and I'd imagine would be considerably cheaper than still having to send someone to each property.
You really do have to wonder who comes up with these ideas...
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Why do 'smart' meters need to broadcast anything?
Because the "smart" part of the meter is the part where it gives the utility company (and the powers that be) the ability to monitor in real-time what you've got running and at what times, along with the ability to take control of heating/cooling of a residence away from the consumer.
This is why I simply don't buy what they're selling when they tell consumers it's simply to inform you of usage and keep your rates down by saving on employing people for meter reading. If that was the entire truth, they wouldn
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Because the "smart" part of the meter is the part where it gives the utility company (and the powers that be) the ability to monitor in real-time what you've got running and at what times, along with the ability to take control of heating/cooling of a residence away from the consumer.
Why would any company want to do that? Why would anyone want to take control of your heating/cooling? What could anyone possibly gain by doing that? Aside from not being able to charge you more money for using your heating?
Or is it you're just paranoid?
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Do you realise the utility companies can't broadcast a 2.4GHz signal, don't you?
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If we're talking meter reading, then use the mobile network. Powering up to send a text with the reading every 3 months isn't exactly a big deal and I'd imagine would be considerably cheaper than still having to send someone to each property.
The dumb meter I've just gotten here in Australia uses a mesh network to communicate with neighbouring meters. The meters report their own status every 15 minutes, and supposedly pass on status messages from surrounding meters until it reaches a central node for the area, which I haven't found yet. I haven't bothered to monitor the thing yet to see if it broadcasts continuously, or just for a burst every 15 minutes. Fortunately, the local meters are using 900MHz, so they don't interfere with my stuff, but t
Smart Meters (Score:5, Interesting)
These things are about as useful as tits on a lawnmower. The meters can't even record accurate use if your house wiring is over 20 years old. The power company where I live is having fits because not a single one of the smart meters they installed in the historic district of the town where I live (and I live in this district) is recording accurate consumption. They've found meters read 1kWh for an entire week. In an apartment building with 6 apartments. To be fair, the wiring is about ancient in these buildings. Some of it has cloth coverings. The fuse boxes in most of them still use the old "stick" fuses made out of waxed paper, etc, etc, etc. Breaker boxes? WHO NEEDS THOSE :P
Also of note: the historic district rules prevent people like the power company from installing more than a single meter per standing structure. This makes tenants very happy, as that means each and every single apartment in the district is "utilities included" when it comes to rent.
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These things are about as useful as tits on a lawnmower.
There are plento of those on the sit-on varieties
Re:Smart Meters (Score:4, Interesting)
how does old wiring hamper the ability of the meter to measure power usage? seems like something else is going on.
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The meters can't even record accurate use if your house wiring is over 20 years old. ... They've found meters read 1kWh for an entire week.
Metering has nothing to do with the age of the wiring. If what you said is true it only means the meter is being bypassed by some parallel wiring.
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Yeah, but the Victoria Secret's grass catchers would cost a fortune!
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Of course one can meter it. But some kinds of metering devices can't be used on some kinds of wire arrangement. (And some can be used on all of them.)
Electric pet fences (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd never heard of electric pet fences before. You Americans scare me.
Re:Electric pet fences (Score:5, Informative)
In my vieuw (and I have trained a dog to stay inside my parent's garden) this can't be a good thing: the dog gets punished without a clear reason (lazy people didn't take the time to make it clear to the dog it can't go into their flowerbeds). This can wreak havoc on the dog's simple "psyche": I'd expect some to grow fearfull of everything, some to grow extremely viscious and some to go completely beserk.
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They're illegal in Wales (you can get charged with animal cruelty) and as far as I knew were going to be made illegal in the rest of the UK soon enough.
Re:Electric pet fences (Score:4, Insightful)
They are not too lazy. They are too stupid. Likely, the same people are also the ones who oppose the U.N Convention of the Rights of the Child (ratified by every country except the U.S.A. and Somalia) because they need to beat the fear of God into their kids.
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Why? They keep those pesky Aibos from running out.
Re:Electric pet fences (Score:5, Funny)
It's more humane than the machine gun pet fences...
I have had to re purchase far less yorkies and pomeranians with the electric ones, and the neighbors don't complain about the sound of the automatic weapon fire any more. Note: short hair breeds do not catch fire as easy as long hair breeds do.
But I do miss the sound of, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, YIEEE!, at night as each neighbors dog fence was to go off spraying 5.56 rounds all over the yards to encourage their dog to stay away from the sidewalk.
Smart Meters != Energy Monitors (Score:5, Informative)
Firstly a lot of people in here seem to be confusing Smart Meters with Energy Monitors. The former replaces the old dial meter and it supposed to communicate with other meters in the area and/or directly with the energy supplier for billing and better tracking of consumption.
Energy Monitors are those devices which clamp around lines by your meter and communicate to a box in your house giving you an idea of your realtime energy use.
so cage it in? (Score:2)
Just a variant... (Score:5, Insightful)
...of a problem that was first noted in the mid 1980s and termed "electronic smog" but the most general term is RFI and dates back as far radio systems in general. Not only do signals interfere with each other, but signals will interfere with ANY electronic device where pins or wires are capable of acting as a dipole. It's unusual for a machine to get scrambled due to an electronic can opener, but if said devices are improperly shielded, it is inevitable.
In the case of wireless devices, you obviously can't shield the antenna. Well, not if you want it to still work. Provided interference is randomish and not overwhelming, AND provided all devices are based on packet communications, a device will be capable of repairing packets and identifying if they're intended for that device.
The first problem is that many electronic devices don't give a damn about power levels beyond being low enough to not be the target of FCC ire. The second problem is that older devices especially are NOT packet based. This means that such devices can't tell if stray signals are intended for them or not. Anything that merely detects the presence of a signal won't care if that signal is a door-opener or a WoW session.
It would be good if transmitters/receivers were a bit more directional - a garage door probably shouldn't be looking for signals coming from the neighbor's house. A door opener can afford to be very direct, since you want to open your door and nobody else's. A smart meter is designed to transmit to the road, so again it can be extremely directional. Directional transmitters and receivers mean less power is needed for the same signal strength received AND less interference off those directions.
Medical devices, except when ABSOLUTELY necessary, should NEVER be wireless. The risk of RFI is way too high and the consequences of an error are far too severe. Wireless is also lower bandwidth, which places hard limits on the kinds of sensors it's useful for and also hard limits on what innovations can be made to medical sensor technology. Inside of a hospital room, I can't think of a single use for wireless devices where wired would not be superior in every respect.
Re:Just a variant... (Score:4, Informative)
Medical devices, except when ABSOLUTELY necessary, should NEVER be wireless.
Where the device is designed to be embedded in someone's body, it absolutely SHOULD be wireless since that allows it to be used without having to route a wire past the skin. RFI is not nearly as big a problem as infection...
It's not really a big deal. (Score:5, Funny)
When I fire up my 13cm amateur radio gear, I obliterate everything that uses 2.4GHz wireless for a mile or two radius until I'm done transmitting.
Don't like it? Then make sure your filthy unlicensed ISM gear has adequate filtering. Oh, you bought the cheapest crappiest wifi card you could find? Sucks to be you.
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If you're willingly and knowingly disrupting communications and computer devices for people in your area, especially when a lot of them simply might not be able to afford "good gear", then you're just being a dick.
Unless you're actively listening for such complaints and doing something to help said people or mitigate your impact, in which case, I handily withdraw my criticism.
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Yup, ham radio is legally granted a PRIMARY license for the lower half of the 2.4ghz ISM band. The ISM users of this spectrum are SECONDARY. This means that the ISM users must ALWAYS give way to the ham users.
Even better (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Even better (Score:4, Insightful)
However what we do need are better standards, and/or an automated system where any communicating device can find space in the spectrum to signal. I'm not sure how trivial that is, but that would need standards as well. Problem is we need to work together and cooperate to set these standards.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Funny)
Wireless is the future for many apps - there's no turning back now. My mouse is (blissfully) wireless,
So is my keyboaaaaaaa&^&*!!
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I use ROT(-26)
No one expects THAT.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Funny)
hopefully the blasted sound lead will be in the future
If only someone could come up with a way of transmitting audio via radio waves :p
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A year or two back, I checked Amazon for some decent wireless speakers, and they all seemed 4 or 3.5 star highest (problems being sound lag or connectivity or sound quality). Now though, the situation seems to have at least improved a bit...
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get this:http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-Bluetooth-Headset-Detachable-Headphones/dp/B002NEMH6G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322137747&sr=8-1
connect it to any pair of speakers you want. get audio from any bluetooth device. and the sound quality is almost indistinguishable from direct connection. also, similar stuff from jabra, etc sounds tinny.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Insightful)
Wireless doesn't need to be the future for hospitals, where each patient is already at a station where all instruments can be connected - the beds are already getting smarter than my dog (although no one has taught a bed to fetch yet), it's only a matter of time before all SATs and monitoring instruments are built in.
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The ball bearing is a perfect solution:
1) It won't fail if there is a power cut
2) It's incredibly cheap - it's a ball bearing and a couple of pieces of plastic after all
3) There's no real way to interfere with it. If you really want to stop people messing with it with magnets use an aluminium or plastic sphere.
Not sure why you would need much else.
Re:Even better (Score:4, Funny)
Off-topic but...
I recall when wireless keyboards and mice first came out and one of our managers proudly bought a couple for the conference rooms to save unsightly wires.
Unfortunately he left a spare set in an easily accessible position and, even worse, left them all on their default settings.
When someone who's less than popular is presenting and people have a spare mouse tuned to the same channel you can imagine the fun to be had clicking their PowerPoint slides forward and backwards; even better when the culprits are outside the room.
The fact that the victim had upset the manager concerned did nothing to help his attempts to get sympathy / retribution
Re:Even better (Score:4, Insightful)
When your batteries go dead, and the interference levels rise, I will still be typing, mousing, and have my internet connection with bits of copper connecting them all together ...
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As for interference, that's why I spoke of standardizing frequencies so that kind of thing doesn't happen.
Wires look unsightly, and they get in the way, constantly getting tangled, or dragging on the table.
Re:Even better (Score:4, Informative)
Wired mice have a big advantage on an untidy desk. You never lose the mouse. As long as it's not so untidy you lose the computer it's plugged in to...
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That "wireless future" is running into wall of congestion very, very fast. Which is the entire point of the article.
You have to remember, the basic premise of wireless is that it's as reliable as cable. When congestion hits, it won't be anymore. Which will bring cable as a vastly superior solution.
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Wireless for hardware where wireless make sense is one thing. Wireless for everything? Not so much. There is a place for wireless keyboard/mouse. But for the large majority of use cases I see, it doesn't. Why should you use a wireless keyboard/mouse on a desktop computer? I've hooked mine up to a USB hub, I have sufficient distance between me and my computer (it's in a different room from my monitor/keyboard/mouse). Most people don't keep their computer so far away. A friend hooked his computer up to
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Multiple times a day when I play a full HD movie from the NAS.
Re:Even better (Score:4, Interesting)
Do not use wireless devices. Use cable connections in all that is possible.
I usually tell this to my corporate and residential customers also, why would you want to go wireless when
you can run everything wired, and have it running, cheaper, faster and more stably?
The main reason they give is the unsightly wiring or additional trunking to the installation, the rest of the wiring is often concealed in their
homes or offices and they didn't think to add Cat5E or Cat6 to their infrastructure when they renovated.
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Can you come round and run some Cat5 from my bedroom to my living room and charge me nothing for the cable and trunking, and nothing for your time and expertise?
No? So how is wired cheaper then?
Especially in this context when we're talking about dropping in one black box to replace another, versus dropping in one black box to replace another, laying cables, trunking cables, possibly going into the ceiling or floor, and connecting those to *every plug socket in the house* so every device in the house can ta
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I usually tell this to my corporate and residential customers also, why would you want to go wireless when
you can run everything wired, and have it running, cheaper, faster and more stably?
I've paid for cable drops, and one cable drop costs more than one wireless router. Most devices seem to come with WiFi now, so that's the extent of the costs. For most people it will work fine and offers adequate security.
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Insightful)
What a surprise when it can bought and sold like a company on the stock exchange.
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What does this have to do with FCC being bought, lobbied, etc? This is the fault of wireless device manufacturers choosing a crowded band to put their devices on. The FCC explicitly lays out the rules for devices on this particular band saying that nobody has rights over others using it.
Re:Not so smart (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that spectrum is up for sale, aside from governmental implementations, there really isn't "open spectrum" for specific classes of devices unless a manufacturer has a monopoly on that area of spectrum AND type of devices. Spectrum is either assigned to organizations based off of money (auctions), or it is put up as a "free-for-all", which results in either underutilized or overcrowded communications.
I bet if the FCC started allocating specific spectrum to specific industries (not organizations) the interference could drop quite quickly.
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sooo, how did those things pass FCC testing?
Re:Not so smart (Score:4, Interesting)
By not shitting all over adjacent spectrums. They all operate within the 2.4Ghz range and they can do whatever they want within that range as long as they don't mess up nearby parts of the spectrum. There are other regulations as well, such as power output that are part of the FCC rules but that's it. These smart meters are probably within spec but hogging the whole spectrum all the same.
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FCC certification does not mean the devices should be able to cope. The line 'the device must accept any and all interference' means 'it is not the FCC's problem if this device operating in unlicensed spectrum is interfered with'.
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I think the name should have tipped you off :)
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Initial accuracy of the chinese multimeters are good. I have both. For the Fluke there's more to it than just a name. They have much faster update rates, their least significant digit is actually worth being displayed on the screen, and most importantly they seem to hold their calibration over a wider range of temperatures and for longer.
At my work they have someone come in and calibrate our equipment 6 monthly. My Fluke meter typically comes back with "no change" written on the test cert, and my Protek has
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Informative)
Says the man that knows nothing at all about RF energy or FCC Type certification.
If a device FAILS because of interference then the manufacturer made a giant steaming POS. Because the FCC certification for that type states clearly.
the Device MUST accept any and all interference.
Blame the moron RF engineers at GE,Sony,Panasonic,LG,etc... for using the china cheap RF modules instead of designing their own RF stage in house.
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Informative)
Better design and manufacturing will help, but at some point we're simply running out of room in a given slice of spectrum. More complex modulation schemes, better-engineered RF stages, and things like TDMA and CDMA, along with more computing power, have resulted in huge improvements in efficient spectrum usage over the past few decades. But we're probably getting close to the limit of what can be done to shoehorn more data into a given bandwidth. Even if consumers are willing, (or forced), to pay more for better hardware, that only postpones the problem for a little while.
Additionally, although the FCC says a device "must accept any and all interference", it does NOT say it "must accept any and all interference AND CONTINUE TO FUNCTION TO THE USER'S SATISFACTION". The FCC may have the power of law, but it has no power over the laws of physics.
Re:Not so smart (Score:4)
Even if consumers are willing, (or forced), to pay more for better hardware, that only postpones the problem for a little while.
Except that the perfectly usable 5GHz spectrum which the cheap-asses who make gadgets and lowball consumers who buy them seem to ignore entirely has enough non-interfering channel space to make that "little while" into a matter of a decade or two.
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you actually fail to understand the concept of interference. Hardware that isn't physically damaged in any way by the interference and goes on with its day still may not be able to maintain a high enough S/N ratio to function as the user desires.
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That line does not mean what you think it does. It means that you can not complain to the FCC about interference with the device, not that the device must continue operating normally. That is as opposed to licensed spectrum, where you CAN complain to the FCC if you are interfered with.
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not so smart (Score:5, Informative)
Re:2.4GHz? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would 'smart' meters not use SMS or something similar? Whatever 'green' imperative has these meters requiring more than that is a fail, by definition.
This is an obvious and sensible solution. I expect that the reason comes down to mobile operators wanting to charge electric companies too much to use the service.
Re:2.4GHz? (Score:5, Informative)
Money(SMS is extreme expensive comparatively). Latency. SMS delivery is not guaranteed by most networks. A number of other issues. Recently some of our customers decided they wanted to use our smart metering OPC server over GPRS. It is still not working (APN issues with the cell phone network), slow, and generally a pain. I'd much rather have the meters on 5GHz wifi. Even worse was the customer that tried to use 9600bps GSM. It cost them a fortune until they turned it off. And don't even talk to me about Power-Line transmission. I may kill you.
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But a fire would create carbon emissions and also produce infrared radiation, and radiation causes cancer!
Re:Gentoo?? (Score:4, Funny)
Considering your machine will be compiling 90% of the time, it won't affect you much at all.