Build Your Own Camera, Launch It Like a Grenade 117
angry tapir writes "Meet the Firefly. Israeli defense contractor Rafael Armament Development Authority calls it a 'revolutionary concept in tactical intelligence,' but really it's a wireless camera that's shot 500 feet in the air by a grenade launcher. And if a couple of hackers at the Defcon hacking convention get their way, soon anyone will be able to buy this type of military grade technology for only US$500."
What good is this for? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:What good is this for? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a great business model. Sell a product where your clients will just launch it away and immediately have to buy another one.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Re:What good is this for? (Score:4, Insightful)
"This is a great business model. Sell a product where your clients will just launch it away and immediately have to buy another one. "
Yawn. Arms merchants have been doing it for years. "Notice you just fired your last RPG. Want to buy another one?"
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The picture you are looking at is the homemade version. I would expect the military model to include PTZ, and maybe some form of movement, or if it is for firing into the air, maybe it does include a chute. I tried to find the actual military version, or something about it, but was unable to find it. The only item I can come up with is this story about a guy building his own unit for $500.
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Re:What good is this for? (Score:5, Informative)
The powder didn't fully ignite, the miniature camera flew about 30 feet into the air -- apparently too fast to transmit images back to the 5.8Ghz wireless receiver they were using -- and their parachute partially incinerated.
So clearly it has a parachute. Why don't you read before you complain about how you think it should work?
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Why don't you read before you complain about how you think it should work?
You must be new here.
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Am I the only one... (Score:1)
that is imagining that this would be much better if the camera was launched via giant sling shot?
Re:Am I the only one... (Score:5, Funny)
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Why are you looking at your profile?
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I see. You know there is an alert system for that which you might find helpful. You get a little bit of control, too.
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just fyi, I'm using IE and I can read your sig.
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That was my first reaction, too. The grenade launcher is much faster to set up, though, so they can get this ready and launched very quickly. Besides, it is something they already know how to use.
A civilian version could use a slingshot, though, and should not be very hard to use.
I mean build, not use. (Score:2)
I mean, should not be very hard to build.
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You should just buy one of these (Score:3, Interesting)
You should just buy one of these bad boys.
http://www.draganfly.com/uav-helicopter/draganflyer-x6/ [draganfly.com]
Military grade and can stay aloft more than 7.2 seconds, while capturing realtime HD video that can be transmitted to a cool pair of goggles on the ground.
Plus, you can whip it out of a backpack in 10 seconds. :-D Cool!
http://www.draganfly.com/video/gallery/show-single-video.php?video_number=2&product_id=DF-X6&r=837 [draganfly.com]
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Although I do have to say... y
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And actually it's not easy to hit something moving at 4mph, especially if it's a good distance away like 300 meters. A man at 300 meters is about the size of the head of a needle held at arm's length, a very difficult target even if it's s
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Obviously you would either move after you launch it, or you send a small patrol to another location to launch it. Pretty much the same SOP used by artillery batteries.
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But while you're shooting at the thing in the sky you're giving away your position.
But when you fire the thing you're giving away your position. A VTOL UAV is superior in that you can drop it, move, then deploy it and never give away your position at all.
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The Draganflyer is a cool toy, true. But for $19,999 just for the base model, it needs to be...
Re:You should just buy one of these (Score:4, Interesting)
I have a few of those 808 keychain cameras and they shoot remarkably good video considering their size and disposable price.
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Believe me, the 808 cameras work about 60% of the time. Figure a doubling of price for every standard deviation up in reliability, and you start to understand milspec pricing.
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Wait until the military figures out you can do the same thing with a $11 keychain camera [youtube.com] and a toys 'r us r/c helicopter [youtube.com]. I have a few of those 808 keychain cameras and they shoot remarkably good video considering their size and disposable price.
So.... who gets the job of recovering the 808 keychain camera from enemy territory once it's been deployed to photograph said territory? Or did you plan on deploying on the end of a really long USB cable?
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Can it maintain a hover hands free in 30 knot winds with an inexperienced pilot?
Can it be pulled out of a satchel that can be (literally) sat on for hours before being deployed.
Does it have 30 minute airtime and carry a mechanically-stabilized SLR-quality rig?
Can it carry a broad spectrum IR camera? How about a night vision camera with an integrated infrared spotlight?
Hmmmmm.... :-)
Speed and integration (Score:2)
The Army never fields something without figuring how it works with current gear.
This think can be carried like any other grenade ammuniition, and quickly launched from a standard M203 grenade launcher.
Given the standard parts, if it were made in bulk it could cost less than some of the ammunition they currently carry.
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Earth.
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everything for war (Score:3, Interesting)
more stuff created for war. These cameras instruments are not going to be sold to civilians, here is the purpose:
Soldiers shoot it off and for eight glorious seconds it gives them a bird's eye view of the terrain around them, tipping them off to enemy positions. Then it crashes back to earth.
Private citizens can't buy these flying cameras, much less the 40mm grenade launchers used to shoot them. But Vlad Gostom and Joshua Marpet think they'd be great tools for a search and rescue operation, or maybe a boon to some local police force's SWAT (special weapons and tactics) team. So they're building their own version and showing off what they've learned at Defcon this week.
of-course outside of a war or a 'rescue operation' there may be not much use for these things, but it just adds to resources that are mis-allocated for wars instead of going towards normal consumer market. The only use for consumer market I can think of is war games unfortunately, like paintball.
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more stuff created for war. These cameras instruments are not going to be sold to civilians, here is the purpose:
...
of-course outside of a war or a 'rescue operation' there may be not much use for these things, but it just adds to resources that are mis-allocated for wars instead of going towards normal consumer market. The only use for consumer market I can think of is war games unfortunately, like paintball.
Hmmm, paintball.... being hit by a solid grenade-like projectile of non-negligible mass... I think I'll pass.
The only advantage of this "grenade like" wireless camera: can reach close to the enemies position in a short time... I can't imagine during civilian operations this can be an advantage... Except, possibly, in building fires - in which an UAV mounted camera won't survive and the situation can evolve quite fast.
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Shooting people with cameras? I am not suggesting that, the camera is to be shoot up into the air to give you a glimpse of where the opponents are (and maybe your side as well).
Of-course this would look funny if too many people got themselves these in paintball and all started using them all at once, shooting cameras into the air. It would probably give out your position too.
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"Private citizens can't buy these flying cameras, much less the 40mm grenade launchers used to shoot them"
First, it's a camera so anyone can buy/make one.
Second, you CAN buy a 40mm launcher; it will just cost a good amount.
Third, it wouldn't be that hard to make to fit in a 37mm launcher, which are quite common.
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more stuff created for war. These cameras instruments are not going to be sold to civilians, here is the purpose:
Yeah! Like the Internet. Or satellite phones. Or guns.
40mm flare launchers are legal (Score:2, Informative)
You can buy a 40mm or 37mm flare launcher and strap it to your gun. It looks, acts, behaves, and 'is' a grenade launcher. If you have a grenade in the same building, area, etc. then you have two destructive devices. As long as it only has flares with it, its fine. I assume a camera should be a form of flare or inert projectile (ask the ATF), so these are likely completely legal.
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No civilians can by grenade launchers in the US, its just a $200 tax stamp.
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Add 6k for an original M79 grenade launcher and another 600 for the pistol grip (or about the same for an AR-15), or scrimp and buy a new one for 2k. Yes, the damned tax stamp is needed. I'd just shoot them from an unregulated (in some states) 37mm flare launcher.
begs for improvement (Score:3)
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Seems to me that increasing that 8 seconds of recon should be relatively academic. How about adding a little parachute that could increase hang time immensely? Also, perhaps adding a gps transmitter would allow for reuse.
8 seconds is with a parachute. FTFA [techworld.com.au]: "Their first test -- launched from a 37mm flare gun last week at a neighbor's farm -- wasn't exactly a raging success: The powder didn't fully ignite, the miniature camera flew about 30 feet into the air -- apparently too fast to transmit images back to the 5.8Ghz wireless receiver they were using -- and their parachute partially incinerated."
Already old news in Finland (Score:3, Funny)
The Fins have been doing that since 2006 [youtube.com]. The don't even need a fancy grenade launcher.
Mac, a former SEAL (Score:2)
showed something like this on FutureWeapons a few years ago.
The Israelis sure do a lot of good military tech.
Of course for them it is a necessity, being surrounded by hostile neighbours.
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Hostile neighbors of their own making by coveting their neighbor's land.
Is it really of their own making? I think their primary sin is hubris. Or if you like, chutzpah. I still believe the nation of Israel was designed to foment hatred in the region, and so far, so good. Basically, keep the Jews from causing trouble by giving them a home where they have all the trouble they can eat...
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Hostile neighbors of their own making by coveting their neighbor's land.
Is it really of their own making? I think their primary sin is hubris. Or if you like, chutzpah. I still believe the nation of Israel was designed to foment hatred in the region, and so far, so good. Basically, keep the Jews from causing trouble by giving them a home where they have all the trouble they can eat...
If that was the aim they would have been left to their own devices against the arabs. Instead their economy and their army are subsidized by the US while their safety is also guaranteed by the US. There would be no need to go that far just for those reasons. The border of the empire is defended with cheap (read free) expendable barbarians, not hugely expensive usurious jews.
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If that was the aim they would have been left to their own devices against the arabs.
If that were the case they would likely have fallen and then the situation in the region would be free to resolve itself. Can't have that.
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If that was the aim they would have been left to their own devices against the arabs.
If that were the case they would likely have fallen and then the situation in the region would be free to resolve itself. Can't have that.
I understand what you mean :) But my point is they could have done it much cheaper, without paying for a western standard of living in Israel and for the israeli army they could have supported them substantially less, relying on western intervention to prop them up and control them too. As things are the israeli army is immensely powerful, a nuclear power, and not in a position to be manipulated by anybody. The reason for that is the yearly tribute trips the US congress takes to Israel to kowtow to their ma
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But my point is they could have done it much cheaper, without paying for a western standard of living in Israel
Eh, it's not their money. It's ours. They have written the laws so that THEY don't really pay taxes, nor do the corporations which will employ them when they leave office. Oh sure, they pay half the taxes... but they own 95% of everything so I see a wee bit of disparity there.
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But my point is they could have done it much cheaper, without paying for a western standard of living in Israel
Eh, it's not their money. It's ours. They have written the laws so that THEY don't really pay taxes, nor do the corporations which will employ them when they leave office. Oh sure, they pay half the taxes... but they own 95% of everything so I see a wee bit of disparity there.
I'm quite sure they view the entire economy as their domain and the population as their serfs. In their mind everything everywhere is theirs, including the pesky arabs that are sitting on their oil. :)
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I don't disagree with your premise, but they have lots of money. Staying in control is the tricky part.
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I don't disagree with your premise, but they have lots of money. Staying in control is the tricky part.
Yup. It's all about control. The money is just the means to that end. Which is why people assume wars had to be for a "higher purpose" since they cost a lot more than the winers could have gotten back. But it's never about profit. Control is the name of the game because it doesn't matter how profitable or not you are when you get utterly defeated- you lose everything. :)
Why? (Score:1)
Hacker Challenge? (Score:2)
Build your own camera and throw it in the air like a grenade: $500
Smoke some weed and lie down for a while: ???
Build a grenade and use it to take a photograph: Priceless.
What benefits? (Score:2)
Granted the training time is higher but the longer running time, cheaper cost(under $300) and greater capabilities (such as moving back and going in closer) make this a very niche market. The biggest market is going to be the people who want to have a close up view of the thing falling and breaking someones windows.
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You can currently get a remote controlled helicopter based camera that has a run time of 10+ mins.
I'm guessing that this is for spying on the sort of people who are likely to shoot down any suspicious looking mini-helicopters before they can get close.
Not a lot you can do about a ballistic camera apart from try and find where it landed so you can moon the operators.
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However these people are aiming for the consumer market where the previous items I mentioned matter.
A lot more successful... (Score:3)
The new idea turned out to be a lot more viable than the opposite approach: Build Your Own Grenade, Hold It Like a Camera
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What a great substitute for a rescue helicopter... (Score:2)
Let's ee... 8 seconds at a time for $500... so if you only put one up every minute for an hour that's... uh.... oh, wait...
Launcher barrels rifled! (Score:2)
Perhaps it escaped notice, but grenade launchers have rifled barrels, and typically the launched projectile is spinning at 15,000 rpm. There might be some unrifled police models used for tear gas, but these will have horrible accuracy -- perhaps 100ft CEP at 500ft.
A camera on a parachute could be a useful thing, but stopping 15krpm isn't easy or quick, especially with only air. Maybe some DSP would work through the spin, but it will have to have a lot less shutter lag! :)
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Mr. Elm:
That's a good point about the rifling. It appears that the Defcon fellows are using flare launchers, which, anecdotally, are described as smoothbore. [gunwiki.net]
I dunno why flare launchers aren't rifled. Maybe the need for accuracy in shooting a flare is low: if it goes UP, instead of sideways, it's probably considered a success. The energy expended on making it spin could arguably be better spent on making it fly.
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Nothing new... (Score:1)
In the 90's, several programs developed artillery shells that mapped the terrain the shells flew over to a surprisingly usable degree of resolution. There are a lot of images available from these sorts of tests online via Google.
In addition, I helped design a camera that was packaged in a ball. The ball was thrown into a building, and a motorized counterweight moved the ball around more or less randomly. The transmitted video from two separate cameras was used to construct striped images of the interior (ro
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20 minutes? Great, you can figure out just where the bodies will be stacked.
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Actually, the images streamed at 15 hz well before the unit was thrown. The 20 minutes was for a 3d reconstruction of available images from just a few minutes' random roaming through the apartment. The raw images recorded everything- the rotation of the ball as it was thrown, etc. It used a then-power-hungry 900 MHz link and was severely bandwidth limited. Today, the entire affair could be accomplished at significantly higher frame rates or resolution. We toyed with 1D image planes as well to improve TX spe
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Haha pimple-faced. Snicker snort. Who pays for that shit? Would that it were otherwise.
Where is the viddeo (Score:1)
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Why a flare launcher? (Score:2)
Obviously in the case of the Israeli device, using a launcher that soliders are likely already carrying around is a good thing, and that's why they would be willing to deal with the disadvantages of grenade launchers for something like this. (Anything combustion-powered causes very high shocks to whatever is being launched - not a big problem for grenades but more of a problem for cameras.)
If you're no longer assuming "launcher the user probably already has", then things get simpler - a pneumatic launcher
Remote control (Score:2)
Just use a high end toy remote control helicopter.
Article is Incorrect about civilian ownership (Score:2)
As a collector of NFA weapons myself, I can say that the article is incorrect about private citizens in the US not being able to purchase a 40mm grenade launcher. The 40mm grenade launcher is classified as a Destructive Device (DD) by the BATFE, and is regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934, commonly referred to as NFA. All NFA weapons are tracked with mandated registration with the BATFE. Weapons regulated by the NFA are Title 2 weapons (Title 1 weapons are "normal" firearms you see in most gun st
Old news for model rocket enthusiasts. (Score:1)
Author here (Score:1)
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