Degraded Electrodes Observed In Aging Batteries 108
schliz writes "Scientists have identified nanoscale changes in aging lithium-ion batteries that could be responsible for their degradation over time. By dissecting and examining dead batteries, they found that some lithium was irreversibly lost from the positive to negative electrode of dead batteries, and no longer participated in charging and discharging. They discovered that finely-structured nanomaterials on dead batteries' electrodes had coarsened in size, and theorise that the coarsening of the cathode may be responsible for the loss of lithium."
Planned obsolescence (Score:2, Funny)
I thought that's the way they were engineered - to generate revenue by way of having to replace them annually.
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I have a thirteen year battery that still gives over a hour and a half of service. The number of cycles is everything. If you deep cycle it every day, you won't get two years out of it.
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Re:Planned obsolescence (Score:4, Informative)
Modern lithium polymer batteries survive best if you keep cycling them regularly, but *not* deep cycling them. Regularly discharging to 30-70%, and then charging again keeps them nice and healthy. Running them down to 0% all the time drives charge backwards through some cells, and helps cause early death.
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>>>Regularly discharging to 30-70%, and then charging again keeps them nice and healthy.
I like to use a dog analogy. If you feed your dog until he's overweight, then don't feed him until he's skeletal, and then feed him again til he's overweight, then don't feed until he's skeletal... your dog won't live long. The stress will shorten his life. ----- The same is true for batteries. Overcharging and then draining them to empty stresses the cell. The ideal is to hold the battery between 60% and 90%
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That comment about NiCad is simply not true. I still have some NiCads and they work just fine, even though I only discharge them to about half each time.
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Nickel Cadmium (NiCd) works as you expect. Those batteries are old technology, but they are still used in some cordless power tools and certain other applications. Unless you let them fully run down, the develop "memory" and refuse to run out a normal cycle. The memory issue does not apply to NiMH and Lithium Ion, but each of those technologies has its own limitations.
Lithium Ion is gradually replacing NiCd in power tools. But there are issues such as the temperature extremes and high current loads tha
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Close, it's about a 45-75% [howstuffworks.com] range:
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We've come a long way since replacement batteries that cost as much as the laptop/phone did in the first place.
Order some generic cells and get soldering.
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Apparently, you've never owned an Apple product.
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We don't count Apple products in the realms of Progress.
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Do I need to remind you that you have a choice in what products you buy?
Buy something that is open/hackable/geek friendly.
Buy batteries that can be rebuilt by the user using only a screw driver and soldering iron.
Buy laser printers that have a toner refill port.
Buy routers that can be reflashed with your choice of firmware.
Who gives a FUCK about apple. Why does /. even have an apple section?
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I don't know, I paid $20 for an IBM thinkpad with a bad battery and bad hard drive. Replacing the battery would cost half as much as I paid for my Acer netbook last April.
Of course, the Thinkpad was probably a couple grand when it was new.
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The battery pack can be rebuilt for $20 or so.
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Where? I googled, the cheapest I found was $150.
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I read it as
Deranged Electrodes Observed In Aging Batteries
I guess that's what happens when you get older and are bipolar.
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I just found a power setting on my new Ideapad that keeps the maximum charge at %80. You lose 1/5th of the runtime in the short term, but you should be able to get a much longer total runtime over time out of it, especially if you keep it plugged in. Thank you, Lenovo.
Which brings to my next point: DON"T KEEP YOUR LAPTOP PLUGGED IN. Charge it, then unplug. The battery will last much longer if you continually cycle it, rather than if you try to keep it topped off all of the time. I've toasted batteries
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If you want to keep your laptop plugged in (say if you use it as a desktop replacement), take out the battery.
I am using the first (original) battery that came with it, it's still good enough to give me about 20 minutes worth of power so in case of a power outage there's enough time to finish what I am doing, saving my work, and gracefully power down the system (unless the power came back up, of course).
I bought an aftermarket regular and an extended capacity battery for less than an original Sony battery w
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Some laptops won't run with the battery removed, and some batteries can't be removed (easily).
Nonetheless, you can't have it both ways. Either you get a topped off battery that's ready when you need it (at the cost of slightly diminishing the life of the battery each day), or you have a disconnected battery that will self-discharge even if it's not in use. As you say, if it's 100% a desktop replacement, then removing the battery is worth a shot, provided you remember to re-insert it and allow it to charge
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Sorry I don't have the science on me... I looked into this a while back. I believe the overcharge and heat both lead to the same basic chemical oxidation. Fully charging (and especially overcharging) is a huge cause of internal heat. And while there doesn't seem to be anything specific thing you can do to save batteries, there are a lot of things you can do to kill batteries.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries [batteryuniversity.com]
And as to your suggestion, there are battery syste
Keyword slapping strategy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Gimme a break. These batteries are based on electro-chemistry. You know, interactions between molecules. Everything that goes on in batteries, all batteries, are nanoscale, by definition. Corrosion in the electrodes had been known and studied for ages. It is a damn chemical reaction that will happen at molecular level.
Re:Keyword slapping strategy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, the net effect is at the macro-scale. But we now have the ability to look at these systems at the nano-scale and investigate why the "damn chemical reaction" gets going in the first place. "Nano" here says more about the equipment used to look at the battery than the battery itself.
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Electrochemists everywhere have known why the 'damn chemical reaction' gets going for many decades, and equipment that allows study at 'nano' scales has been around for quite a while now also, even though it continues to get better. I see no basis to criticize these researchers, since there was almost no information of substance in the article. But I have to agree with the grandparent: if you want to get your research funded, or want people to read your article, be sure to scatter the word nano around.
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Fuck you, buzzword hating bitch. Be warned, in 2030 you may well find yourself left-behind after the Singularity rapture.
Nanobots are the way and the life. If you don't believe in them, may your puny brain turn to goo.
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Nanoscope? Ha! I'm waiting to get my picoscope!
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Pfft, nanoscopes. Anyone not using a femtoscope might as well just turn in their nerd card now.
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Pfft, femtoscopes. Anyone not using a yoctoscope might as well turn in his nerd card now.
You expect me to give up my Planck length scope for that piece of crap?
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So, this is really happening on the gaga scale.
Cue the bleach blond in the bikini!
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You get a core deposite back that reduces the cost of the new battery. If you don't return your battery when you buy a new one, the new battery costs approx. $20 more.
Re:Keyword slapping strategy. (Score:5, Informative)
Really? You're complaining about using the term "nano" to refer to structures bigger than molecules but smaller than the wavelength of light?
By the same token, everything that goes on in your body is based on bio-chemistry, and therefore "nanoscale by definition". But it's still useful to distinguish (for example) biochemical changes in bone digestion due to biphosphonates from microscopic changes in bone structure associated with osteoporosis from large-scale changes associated with being run over by a truck.
The nanoscale structure of battery electrodes, larger than individual molecules but smaller than the wavelength of visible light, is absolutely critical to optimizing battery performance. It's distinct from the battery's basic chemistry, it's distinct from gross electrode shape and size, and it's certainly distinct from the macroscopic and chemical changes "studied for ages" in association with corrosion.
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Some others...hi-fi, cyber, eco....
Other words are also used for their positive or negative connotation, stripped of other meaning. An example that comes to mind is when people say that something rocks. A song, a radio station, a musician, or a band can rock. Nothing else can rock, sorry.
I've noticed that many people with "good" language skills wield words easily because that's how they think. When they hear a new phrase they get some sense of its meaning, and subsequently use it where it seems to be ap
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A song, a radio station, a musician, or a band can rock. Nothing else can rock, sorry.
So when I sit on that chair on my porch I'm, what, tipping back and forth? But not rocking?
More on point, anything that gets you up and moving can rock, even if it is not music.
Besides, rock and roll originally [etymonline.com] had a meaning before being applied to music: among other things, it refered to movements associated with sex.
rock (v.1)
"to sway," late O.E. roccian, related to O.N. rykkja "to pull, tear, move," Swed. rycka "to pull, pluck," M.Du. rucken, O.H.G. rucchan, Ger. rücken "to move jerkily." For musical senses, see rock (v.2). Rocking horse is first recorded 1724; rocking chair is from 1766. To rock the boat is attested from 1931. Rock-a-bye first recorded 1805 in nursery rhyme. rock (v.2)
"to dance to popular music with a strong beat," 1948 (first attested in song title "We're gonna rock"), from rock (v.1), in earlier blues slang sense of "to cause to move with musical rhythm" (1922); often used at first with sexual overtones (cf. 1922 song title "My Man Rocks Me (with One Steady Roll)"). Sense developed early 1950s to "play or dance to rock and roll music." Noun sense of "musical rhythm characterized by a strong beat" is from 1946, in blues slang. Rock star attested by 1966. Rocksteady, Jamaican pop music style (precursor of reggae), is attested from 1969.
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I almost added a few sentences on the sex angle, and how that does and doesn't relate to what I'm talking about, but decided it wasn't worth the effort.
Thanks for the rocking chair meaning of the word 'rock' though, I wasn't aware of that one.
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Indeed. I hate progress in anything other than technology as much as anyone else, but it is just barely possible that "nanoscale" is a reasonable term to use here. They are talking about very small physical changes in the electrode as Lithium atoms migrate away from it.
AFAIK, there's not official definition of "nanoscale", but I understand it usually refers to measurements between 1 and 100nm. It seems reasonable to apply the term to any kind of thing that is convenient to describe in nm (e.g., anything
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They're not talking about the chemistry, though. They're talking about structural changes. So while the "nano" may be annoying, it's appropriate. Still, this doesn't sound any different th
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The same problem applies to electroplating operations. If your electrolyte bath is not in perfect condition, if temperatures are not right, if the current is too high, etc... you will get a bad plating finish.
Batteries (lead, lithium, nickel-cadmium, carbon-zinc) all have the same problem. A certain percentage of the metals end up in a state that is useless for battery operation. This should not be a big surprise to anyone who understands the chemical processes.
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Except, we don't know why lithium-ion batteries age. That is, even if you treat them well, they'll eventually die out anywhere from 1-5 years. The clock starts ticking the moment they're manuf
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Re:News? Not news. (Score:4, Insightful)
And instead of just taking the "attributed" reason they bothered to do some work and report on what they suspect is the actual physical/chemical cause rather than just a catch-all "disorder". Since that helps with trying to reduce the problem.
Why didn't you do that sometime in the last 20 years if it was so damn obvious?
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This is where we need supercap technology to actually get working and usable for small devices. This way, we can replace the batteries in hard to access devices with supercaps that don't depend on a chemical reaction to store charge, and can be charged/discharged millions more times than a battery.
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Very true, and an important concern. However, the average lifespan of a cap is definitely longer than a battery, especially if coupled with charging circuitry that can tell the dielectric is about to arc across and not keep stuffing farads in the thing.
The problem is that caps don't have enough energy/weight to make them a battery replacement yet.
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I never said it wasn't "science". I said it wasn't "news".
Have you actually read TFA?
Have you known the exact same information in TFA for 20+ years?
I can say "yes" to both. So I have the background and knowledge to opine: It ain't "News".
If in work I come across a "proof" as weak as the empty rhetoric found in these comments, I normally just let the person embarrass themselves.
But in slashdot, no one can a
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I'm glad you put the "[NB - sarcasm]" bin in there. I was just about to hopelessly embarrass myself by taking that seriously [NB - sarcasm].
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But there are those for whom it was absolutely needed.
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It was supposed to be a kind of joke, because I made the same 'error' you did ;)
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Communication is a muddled action.
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It gets attributed to Entropy.
No. You have no clue what entropy is. Entropy is a state function of the molecules. As the battery is charged and discharged, it changes. Look at your molar entropy tables.
Second, it is known not to impact some batteries. Edison cells are still producing %100 of their rated capacity after almost 100 years of operation. Iron plates = no shape change.
"This just in - scientists use vacuum tunnel and state of the art electronics to detect that gravity accelerates two different masses - at the same rate!!" [NB - sarcasm]
It would be news if they found, down to say 10^-15, that both masses are accelerated the same.
WTF? (Score:1)
How this is news ? WTF?
Re:WTF? (Score:4, Interesting)
"Things degrade and break over time, especially if you use them."
How this is news ? WTF?
The article carefully avoided mentioning that the scale of the damage was not known before. In my limited chemistry knowledge I always assumed the problem was the electrodes either went into solution or gained a molecule thick film of icky-stuff that prevented the reactions.
Its bad news... If you're trying to prevent dissolving, well, thats a very well known problem and you can play games with buffer solutions and making the electrodes more or less insoluable, and all kinds of other ideas. Old tech "no problemo". Or if the problem was thin film growth, basically electroplating gone wild, thats also old tech "no problemo" with chleating agents and electropositive series and decades/centuries of metallurgical corrosion research. By old tech, no problemo, I mean its a well developed area of study, not "the great unknown", or not that the solution inevitably exists or is cheap, just that the research is likely to proceed quickly and efficiently. But what is a non-mechanical engineering solution to surface roughness getting screwed up chemically? Hmm. At this time of morning, I have no idea what the next step could be. Lots of blue sky research money getting spent, I'd guess.
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Slashdot has just discovered entropy, apparently.
Solar backup (Score:1)
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A small solar cell isn't going to do shit, and whenever you're not using it, it's just a waste. Leaving batteries in the sun is a recipe for failure, so leaving battery-powered devices in the sun is the same. (Most of those solar battery chargers are fucking lame just for this reason, including ALL candybar chargers.)
If you want a small solar charger, carry it separately. You can get one with LiIon batteries in it from SlaveryExtreme for about $13.
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I woudn't google SlaveryExtreme if I were you.
If people don't know what DealExtreme is, or if people don't know that all this $2.99 shit coming out of China is built with slave labor, or can't put these two facts together, then they probably don't need to be buying any cheap chinese shit anyway.
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It has pretty decent implications for vehicles. Even with a lead-acid battery, a small amp positive trickle charge will go a long way to making your battery last longer before it's in need of replacement.
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Yeah, I have a Coleman solar charger that plugs into the cigarette lighter in the dash. It's about 10cm wide and 40-50cm long.
During the winter months when I don't go anywhere for a week or two at a time, it's the difference between a dead battery and one that will still start the car after two weeks.
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Because 90% of electronics can't run anything off the power supplied from a solar cell. Solar stuff is still inside the calculator / overnight trickle charger range of power.
Hell, it can take 8-10 hours to charge some AA's in some (not entirely dark) countries. If I have one as big as a folded out suitcase, I might *JUST* be able to get enough juice to start my car once if I leave it in direct sunlight for a few hours / days.
Seriously, your average laptop can pull 90W during booting (19V 4.5A isn't unusua
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One place where solar panels should be, and aren't, is on hybrid cars. As far as I can tell, they aren't included mainly because of laws mandating that cars meet gas-type requirements(i.e. the US version of the Prius
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You should probably be quiet. If you think solar power is good for overnight trickle charging, you don't understand the technology.
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+1 funny
Funniest comment I've seen so far today!
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I'm not looking foward for the time the Sun turns into a red giant... Now, solar isn't shit. It is just not suitable to be used as a portable power source.
Out of date and short on detail (Score:1)
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Implications for EVs? (Score:2)
What are the implications for EVs, which seem to primarily use Li based batteries?
I know the 'record' for these batteries is pretty good so far (not bad enough to make Consumer Reports respond yet, at least), but I have to wonder how much of that is due to ideal environmental factors and how much of it is due to the things not being out long enough, or used enough, to get an accurate measure. How are the first generations of the Prius doing? I've yet to see any reviews or analysis. This is important for the
Battery Mythbusters (Score:3, Insightful)
People usually have many opinions on how you should use laptop or phone batteries to maintain maximum longevity. Keep it plugged in always when possible, discharge it to 50% every now and then, or always run it from full to empty, etc.
It would be cool if we had some "battery mythbusters" who would systematically test these things with different machines and usage patterns so we could get more solid data on the subject. :)
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-Different regimes on NiMH, NiCd, Li-ion, LiPoly, LiFePO4 and lead-acid.
-Pulse charging
-Those "battery desulfators"
-Charge up some alkalines to show it's possible
How is this surprising? (Score:2)
Next up: A study on why my 20-year-old car isn't working like its brand new anymore.
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If she knew I was posting comments about here like this she'd probably get charged up pretty quick though.
You don't think she'll find out that you're posting using her account, "cindyann"? There could be battery involved...
Speaking of battery, I saw a news report the other day about battered women, and thought to myself "damn, and here I've been eating them plain."
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oh yeah, I'm really so stupid that I'd be posting from her account.
Obviously this is my girlfriend's account.
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Too bad it's too late for moderation, that deserves a +5 funny!