Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Power Hardware

GE Closes Last US Light Bulb Factory 797

Posted by samzenpus
from the bright-idea dept.
pickens writes "The Washington Post reports that last major GE factory making ordinary incandescent light bulbs in the US is closing this month, marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison's innovations in the 1870s. What made the plant vulnerable is, in part, a 2007 energy conservation measure passed by Congress that set standards essentially banning ordinary incandescents by 2014 but rather than setting off a boom in the US manufacture of replacement lights, the leading replacement lights are compact fluorescents, or CFLs, which are made almost entirely overseas. GE developed a plan to see what it would take to retrofit a plant that makes traditional incandescents into one that makes CFLs but even with a $40 million investment the new plant's CFLs would have cost about 50 percent more than those from China. 'Everybody's jumping on the green bandwagon,' says Pat Doyle, 54, who has worked at the plant for 26 years. But 'we've been sold out. First sold out by the government. Then sold out by GE.'"
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

GE Closes Last US Light Bulb Factory

Comments Filter:
  • The easy way out (Score:5, Interesting)

    by w00tsauce (1482311) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:04PM (#33546440)
    GE needs to team up with Cree and retrofit their factory for making the next generation LED bulbs.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Ark42 (522144)

      GE needs to team up with Cree and retrofit their factory for making the next generation LED bulbs.

      Yes! They need to think of the future, past CFLs, and start working on cheap LEDs asap.

      Anybody know where I can get good 800-1000 lumen LED bulbs, that fit in regular A19 socket with 4" clearance (too many are 5" or more tall, and don't fit in many fixtures), and don't have a fan and heatsink?
      I'd love to start buying them, even for $20-$30 each, but everything I find is like 300 lumens, 5" tall, or has a fan that gets noisy after a year of use.

      • by modmans2ndcoming (929661) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:03PM (#33546950)

        we need to implement DC lighting circuits in homes and the heatsinks and fans go away. the reason for the HSF is to convert the AC to DC.

        • Re:The easy way out (Score:5, Informative)

          by Entropy2016 (751922) <entropy2016@yahoo . c om> on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:27PM (#33547222)

          The LED light does actually produce significant heat. It's nowhere near as much heat as an incandescent or CFL, but because LED's have such a very low heat tolerance (heat reduces their lifespan), keeping them cooled them isn't as easy as simply removing the AC/DC converter.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by LoRdTAW (99712)

          No point. LED's can be driven off AC directly, you just need a proper ballast resistor in series with the LED. In fact you can drive many LED's in series as well using strait AC. A single rectifying diode and a capacitor could also be used to smooth the clipped waveform.

          The only reason there should be a fan on your bulb is if you have high output LED's that require active cooling. Otherwise inverters, PWM drivers and charge pumping is unnecessary.

          • Re:The easy way out (Score:4, Informative)

            by mspohr (589790) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @06:34PM (#33548664)
            I have several strings of christmas lights that are LED. They don't have a current limiting resistor or a diode rectfier. They run straight off the AC. Work great.

            The forward voltage drop of the LEDs in series limits the current. The LEDs are actually "diodes" (that's the D part) so they don't need a rectifier diode.

      • by MrNaz (730548) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:08PM (#33547022) Homepage

        The Cree MCE can push 1000 lumens with about 10W of power. There are other LEDs as well (SSC P7, SST-90) that can output this sort of lumen count. However there are no standard type bulbs that feature it, as the problem with LEDs is that they dissipate the heat into the fixture rather than radiate it forward. This means that the fire hazard is an issue, unless your roof is made of fireproof material. Radiating heat into the room is a non issue, as rooms are usually large enough that this is not an issue. A small area just behind the light getting very very hot, however, is an issue.

        For this reason I think that the LED problem is simply one of designing fixtures where the heat sink is designed such that the surface that the LED is mounted on has significant surface area facing the same direction as the LED. This may mean complex designs, but light fittings are already complex because interior designers are a bunch of loonies. Now they'll actually have a reason to make that room lamp look like a gigantic vagina.

    • Re:The easy way out (Score:4, Interesting)

      by arisvega (1414195) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @04:23PM (#33547666)

      It's not all about illumination- there is many a occasion where the heat produced by the incandescent bulb is desired; keeping food warm, keeping your pet reptile happy, to name a few.

      I am definately for sanity in resource management, but I can't fathom this banning obsession-

  • by Nerdfest (867930) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:06PM (#33546456)
    This is a great solution to the 'too many patents' problem in a story earlier today. No lightbulbs means no ideas right?
  • Yes, it sucks that the market for candles disappeared but you have to adapt and compete. If you can't make CFLs competitively, then you lose your job. It's that simple.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Darkness404 (1287218)
      This isn't that the market for candles disappeared but rather the government banned candles. This is not the free market at work but rather the government screwing us (again)
      • by epiphani (254981) <<ten.lad> <ta> <inahpipe>> on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:27PM (#33546636)

        Please explain how the government mandating energy efficiency is equivalent to the government screwing us.

        The government keeps your energy prices artificially low. I think that gives them the right to make sure you're not pissing away energy. Or would you rather electricity was five times the current price?

        I actually might prefer that. But I also make significantly more than the average person.

        • My oven... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Stoutlimb (143245)

          When the light bulb in my oven finally burns out, I wonder how well the CFL I replace it with will perform?

          Anyone?

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by advocate_one (662832)

          Please explain how the government mandating energy efficiency is equivalent to the government screwing us.

          yet again, they mandated a technology instead of mandating an efficiency target. It should have been a lumens per watt target and left up to the market as to how that was achieved...

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by lgw (121541)

          The government keeps your energy prices artificially low. I think that gives them the right to make sure you're not pissing away energy. Or would you rather electricity was five times the current price?

          No, no, and Hell NO! That idea is poison. The government does not get the right to stick it's nose into my daily life just to save money. My personal liberty is more important than saving a little money and fuck anyone who sells their own personal liberty so cheaply. At least hold out for a little imagined safety or something, geez.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by SomeKDEUser (1243392)

            Collective choices have collective consequences, they are a matter of collective choice: the government, which represents you gets to decide. You may decide to freely do whatever you want, and if one of your externality-inducing habits becomes popular, the government gets to stop it. Because that is its job.

            If it didn't, then it would fail at its fundamental role.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by roystgnr (4015)

          Or would you rather electricity was five times the current price?

          Hmm... this sounds like "80% of the cost of your electricity is subsidized by the federal government, no matter which of many diverse local utilities you use", which in turn sounds a lot like "I don't know what I'm talking about"; but let's be clear anyway:

          Yes, using prices to reflect costs will have better results than distorting those prices and then trying to replace natural incentives with a haphazard artificial patchwork of bookshelves fu

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Peach Rings (1782482)

        Yeah! And if the EPA hadn't screwed us in 1970, the free market would still be happily pumping out cars that are a thousand dollars cheaper and run on wonderful TEL-enhanced gasoline because there are government-mandated catalytic converters to ruin.

        Oh, and New York would still be in a choking black cloud of poisonous smog. But who cares about that.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by westlake (615356)

        This isn't that the market for candles disappeared but rather the government banned candles.

        The candle you buy today isn't the candle you could buy ten years ago.

        Lead wicks in candles were banned in 2001:

        Granting a petition filed by Public Citizen, the National Apartment Association, and the National Multi Housing Council, the Consumer Product Safety Commission noted that some candles containing lead-core wicks can release more than 2,200 micrograms of lead per hour. This amount is about five times the am

      • Well, then, it's like lead manufacturers getting really pissed when the government ruins their business by banning leaded gasolines. Governments regulate shit all the time. It's part of the business environment. If you can't adapt, you deserve to get wiped out.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by WillyWanker (1502057)
        Yes, heaven forbid a government do something to force idiot consumers to save energy. Oh the horror of a socially-responsible government. I'm sorry you are so burdened by having to use non-incandescent lightbulbs. Such oppression must surely weigh on your soul. How do you manage to get up in the morning and make it thru your day?
    • by FlyingGuy (989135) <flyingguy@gmail . c om> on Saturday September 11, 2010 @04:03PM (#33547508)

      You are an idiot, it's just that simple.

      No industry in the US can compete with another country where the wages are 1/100th of what a similar US worker needs to get paid for doing the same job.

      Have you noticed the prices of any of the following going down to a level that a worker can can still have a decent lifestyle in this country while being paid the equivalent of wages paid in China which is less the ONE dollar an hour?

      • Housing
      • Land
      • Transportation
      • Food
      • Utilities ( electricity, heating oil, natural gas )
      • Clothing
      • Education

      Think you can live anywhere in this country making One dollar an hour? Or anywhere in the UK making One Pound an hour? Or anywhere in the EU making One Euro an hour besides perhaps in a dumpster behind a Wal-Mart?

      What kind of job do you have? i bet it is in IT. Trust me, if they could figure out a way to outsource your ass to China, they would and that person might be getting paid the Chinese equivalent of 5 dollars an hour. Can you live where you live right now and maintain your lifestyle on 5 dollars an hour? Yeah I didn't think so.

  • Sold out by GE? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Desert Raven (52125) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:08PM (#33546474)

    OK, how exactly were they "sold out by GE"?

    The plant wasn't profitable currently, was going to be made obsolete by law in a couple of years, and was not even remotely profitable to refit to producing the CFLs.

    So they should just pay people to work for the heck of it?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by alfredos (1694270)

      I agree with what you wrote except:

      was going to be made obsolete by law

      Law in this case simply accelerated a proccess which was almost guaranteed to happen anyway due to the higher efficiencies of CFLs and LEDs.

      I am usually no fan of governments regulating too much, but in this case I'm happy with it (we have similar laws on this side of the pond, too).

    • Re:Sold out by GE? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Eharley (214725) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:55PM (#33546882)

      Seriously.

      I remember this article [nytimes.com] last year

      "When Congress passed a new energy law two years ago, obituaries were written for the incandescent light bulb. The law set tough efficiency standards, due to take effect in 2012(?), that no traditional incandescent bulb on the market could meet, and a century-old technology that helped create the modern world seemed to be doomed."

      "But as it turns out, the obituaries were premature." ...
      "The incandescent bulb is turning into a case study of the way government mandates can spur innovation."

      "There's a massive misperception that incandescents are going away quickly," said Chris Calwell, a researcher with Ecos Consulting who studies the bulb market. "There have been more incandescent innovations in the last three years than in the last two decades."

      -----

      So it would seem that GE just doesn't want to invest in the US and instead make the same crap it's already making more cheaply in China.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      OK, how exactly were they "sold out by GE"?

      Because GE was one of the big lobbyists for the bill which outlawed the bulbs made at this plant. Now whether the law was a good one or not is another question, but GE wanted this law. GE will make more profits on the light bulbs they will sell under this law than they could have under any circumstances on regular incandescent bulbs (especially when you can't buy regular incandescent anymore and they can raise their prices).

  • by Joe The Dragon (967727) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:08PM (#33546478)

    It's easy for stuff to be 50% less in a factory town where works are just meat and they work super overtime with no overtime pay. Also over seas it costs less to pay off / bribe gov into looking the other way over them breaking over time and worker rights laws.

    • by couchslug (175151) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:18PM (#33546552)

      "It's easy for stuff to be 50% less in a factory town where works are just meat and they work super overtime with no overtime pay. "

      The reality of competing with cheap workers will require a reset so our workers become cheap. Productivity is high with few workers, but if more workers are to have jobs, they will have to work for less, live less well, and be like the rest of the world.

      The main reason the US did so well for so long was it was the "last country standing" after WWII, which was the best thing ever to happen to the US economy.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by sjames (1099)

        Not to mention producers will have to lower prices to reduce the cost of living for those workers. That will inevitably happen anyway as the corporations economically devastate their own market for the sake of short term returns. Unemployed people don't buy much.

      • by nickmalthus (972450) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:14PM (#33547098)
        Actually what needs to happen for America to stay competitive with China is for an oppressive fascist authoritarian government to seize power and subsequently squelch all dissent as party loyalist pillage the country. Then we would be apples to apples the same as China and that future doesn't seem to be too far off.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by DeadboltX (751907)
      It is also all in the name of "being green", but how much more polluting are the overseas factories, and the cargo transports to get all those bulbs back over to the U.S.?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:08PM (#33546482)

    GE is looking out for themselves. Making light bulbs overseas is cheaper, so they do it without one bit of shame. Which is fine, they're a corporation, their duty is to their shareholders. If their shareholders want profits, they have to do it cheaper.

    The US government has duties to the citizens. Unfortunately this can put some citizens out of sorts, because the needs of the whole may be different. Sorry, but it happened with the buggy whip makers, it'll happen with the light bulb ones.

    Hopefully these employees are getting retraining, education, and whatever other resources they need to find jobs. You can certainly differ over whether or not the restrictions of light bulbs are appropriate, but we can't just throw our hands up and do nothing. If you have better ideas, please give them instead of just offering criticism.

    I would rather hear dumb ideas than just hearing that you think all ideas are dumb.

    • by sjames (1099) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:15PM (#33547106) Homepage

      This is not a buggy whip situation. This isn't GE stubbornly continuing to make a product with diminishing demand. This is the inability to compete on price alone against cheap sweatshop labor. This is the Federal government failing utterly to do it's job to the detriment of all but the richest segment of the population.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Mashiki (184564)

      Hopefully these employees are getting retraining, education, and whatever other resources they need to find jobs

      Oh I'm sure they're getting something, but whether or not it's anywhere close to useful is another question altogether. Anywho, the obvious question for me becomes this. When all the basic work goes away, who's gonna keep buying all this stuff when there are no jobs?

      It's rather...short sighted.

  • by zerofoo (262795) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:12PM (#33546516)

    In the manufacture of physical things it's very hard to compete with companies operating in other countries that have less worker protections, less environmental protections, and non-existent employee benefits.

    Either we stop buying from manufacturers located in these countries or we push our legislators to prohibit the import of items manufactured under these conditions.

    OR

    We lower our standard of living to a 3rd world standard to "compete". Is throwing away your standard of living worth cheap light bulbs?

    -ted

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by formfeed (703859)

      In the manufacture of physical things it's very hard to compete with companies operating in other countries that have less worker protections, less environmental protections, and non-existent employee benefits.

      Either we stop buying from manufacturers located in these countries or we push our legislators to prohibit the import of items manufactured under these conditions.

      That would be great, and one probably could do that through import taxes. Free trade allows for Co2 trading, why not humanitarian production taxes? As long as the generated taxes match the humanitarian help that goes back into the exporting countries, it would not be a blocking import tax.

      This would get rid of sleeze-balls constantly relocating to the worst countries and help businesses (and countries) that want to act responsibly. But as long as WTF agreements are done in a completely non-democratic wa

  • by SirGeek (120712) <sirgeek-slashdot@NOsPam.mrsucko.org> on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:13PM (#33546518) Homepage

    I loath CFL lights. They don't last ANYWHERE near the reports say they will. Yet the power LED on one of my computers is still happily running (after 24 hours a day for 10 years).

    And LEDs don't require you to use a hazmat suit to pick up pieces if you break one (since they contain Mercury).

    • by nickersonm (1646933) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:20PM (#33546578)

      I've not needed to replace a single CFL since I changed out all the lightbulbs with them when moving in to my current apartment 4 years ago. Perhaps your power supply is dirty? I hear bad things about CFLs, but the cheap ones I purchased were the best lighting investment I've ever made.

    • by Jeremi (14640) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:24PM (#33546602) Homepage

      And LEDs don't require you to use a hazmat suit to pick up pieces if you break one (since they contain Mercury).

      LED light bulbs are available [homedepot.com].... pricey, but perhaps worth it?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Idiomatick (976696)
        Either they aren't enough lumens (sometimes by a lot) or they are directional. This might not be a big problem if someone designed your house with floodlight style bulbs in mind but they didn't. So for MOST purposes, not all CFLs are the best option.

        Once these two issues get sorted out they will crush the market. I believe they will crush the market so completely that lightbulbs will come with the house and will turn into something you get at a hardware store once every 20 years. Houses will be designed w
    • by mysidia (191772) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:26PM (#33546624)

      If they were dangerous, the government would never allow them to be sold to households for such common use, since lightbulbs are used in food handling areas.

      We pick up and vacuum up the pieces of broken CFLs without hazmat suits all the time, and no ill effects to report... They get broken about 10% of the time when a bulb is being changed, a bit more often than incandescents, which adds to the cost and annoyance of using these bulbs -- the CFLs seem to be more fragile for some reason and break too easily, not sure why that might be.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by OnePumpChump (1560417)
        They get broken about 10% of the time when a bulb is being changed

        Do you have Parkinson's disease or something?
      • by Camel Pilot (78781) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:53PM (#33546862) Homepage Journal

        we pick up and vacuum up the pieces of broken CFLs without hazmat suits all the time,

        Actually vacuuming is the one thing you are not suppose to do!

        http://www.epa.gov/cfl/cflcleanup.html [epa.gov]

        And sure the ill effects of one or two might not be noticeable but if you have young'ns in house it may long term

      • by slapout (93640) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:02PM (#33546932)

        "If they were dangerous, the government would never allow them to be sold" -- that's a joke, right?

        Proper cleanup steps are only a two page PDF:

        Cleaning Up a Broken Compact Fluorescent Light Bulb (CFL)
        Fluorescent light bulbs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed within the glass
        tubing. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency recommends the following cleanup
        and disposal steps:
        Before Cleanup: Air Out the Room
          Have people and pets leave the room, and don't let anyone walk through the
        breakage area on their way out.
          Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
          Shut off the central forcedair heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.
        Cleanup Steps for Hard Surfaces
          Carefully scoop up glass pieces and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and
        place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed
        plastic bag.
          Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass
        fragments and powder.
          Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes. Place
        towels in the glass jar or plastic bag.
          Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.
        Cleanup Steps for Carpeting or Rug
          Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid
        (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
          Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass
        fragments and powder.
          If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area
        where the bulb was broken.
          Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or
        vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
        Cleanup Steps for Clothing, Bedding and Other Soft Materials
          If clothing or bedding materials come in direct contact with broken glass or
        mercurycontaining powder from inside the bulb that may stick to the fabric, the
        clothing or bedding should be thrown away. Do not wash such clothing or
        bedding because mercury fragments in the clothing may contaminate the
        machine and/or pollute sewage.
          You can, however, wash clothing or other materials that have been exposed to
        the mercury vapor from a broken CFL, such as the clothing you are wearing when
        U.S. Environmental Protection Agency June 2010
        you cleaned up the broken CFL, as long as that clothing has not come into direct
        contact with the materials from the broken bulb.
          If shoes come into direct contact with broken glass or mercurycontaining
        powder from the bulb, wipe them off with damp paper towels or disposable wet
        wipes. Place the towels or wipes in a glass jar or plastic bag for disposal.
        Disposal of Cleanup Materials
          Immediately place all cleanup materials outdoors in a trash container or
        protected area for the next normal trash pickup.
          Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing cleanup
        materials.
          Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your
        specific area. Some states do not allow such trash disposal. Instead, they require
        that broken and unbroken mercurycontaining bulbs be taken to a local recycling
        center.
        Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Air Out the Room During and After Vacuuming
          The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forcedair heating/air
        conditioning system and open a window before vacuuming.
          Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open
        for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Cochonou (576531)
      Yes, but your the LED on your computer is precisely not a "power LED": it doesn't light up a thing. For LEDs, life expectancy is directely correlated to output power.
    • by westlake (615356) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:33PM (#33546704)

      And LEDs don't require you to use a hazmat suit to pick up pieces if you break one (since they contain Mercury).

      Urban legend. Light fingered [snopes.com]

  • by sjbe (173966) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:19PM (#33546560)

    marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison's innovations in the 1870s.

    In other news GE has sold their buggy whip division...

    This is not sad news except maybe for the employees who work there. Incandescent bulbs are a technology which has seen its day but it's day is pretty much at an end. They'll continue to be manufactured for some time but not by GE. Anyone who would expect GE to continue to manufacture an obsolete product with rapidly dwindling market share is a moron. The growth opportunities in lighting are with newer technology such as CFL and LED lighting. This is not something to shed a single tear over. Sentimentality in a situation like this is just bizarre.

  • Writer of history. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Ostracus (1354233) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:26PM (#33546630) Journal

    "The Washington Post reports that last major GE factory making ordinary incandescent light bulbs in the US is closing this month, marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison's innovations in the 1870s.

    Debatable about the innovation (read some of the comments) [arstechnica.com]

  • huh (Score:4, Interesting)

    by buddyglass (925859) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @02:44PM (#33546794)
    What I don't get is this: if China can produce CFLs at half the price (which doesn't surprise me), then why couldn't they also produce incandescents at half the price? In other words, why hadn't the plant closed long before the advent of CFLs?
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by DragonWriter (970822)

      What I don't get is this: if China can produce CFLs at half the price (which doesn't surprise me), then why couldn't they also produce incandescents at half the price?

      They probably could, if you ignore the startup costs of the plant. But if you've already got a US-based plant, the startup costs of that plant are sunk and don't figure into a comparison with foreign plants. OTOH, when you would either need to convert the local plant or start a foreign plant, the conversion costs of the local plant do need to

    • Re:huh (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Pentium100 (1240090) on Saturday September 11, 2010 @03:20PM (#33547156)

      Incandescent lights are probably more expensive to ship. They take up as much space as CFLs but are much cheaper, so the shipping cost makes up for a larger part in total cost.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Dialecticus (1433989)

      What I don't get is this: if China can produce CFLs at half the price (which doesn't surprise me), then why couldn't they also produce incandescents at half the price? In other words, why hadn't the plant closed long before the advent of CFLs?

      My guess is that incandescent bulbs can be made cheaply both in the USA and in China because they contain no environmental pollutants, whereas CFLs, on the other hand, contain mercury, and it's probable that the environmental regulations in China are sufficiently loose to allow them to streamline the manufacturing process in ways that simply cannot be done legally in the USA.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.

Working...