"Home Batteries" Power Houses For a Week 325
tjansen writes "Panasonic has announced plans to create 'home batteries.' They are lithium-ion batteries large enough to power a house for a week, making energy sources such as solar and wind power more feasible. Also, you can buy energy when it is cheapest, and don't need to worry about power outages anymore."
Re:Boom. (Score:3, Interesting)
I am interested in your sump pump backup. I am looking for a solution. How long does it last? Where did you get the battery? Any info appreciated.
I got the battery itself (a Hawker 6FV11) off of EBay. Got lucky too, it was brand new in-the-box. I also picked up a 2.4Kw inverter from EBay, and a 30 amp continuous charger. I actually have two separate pumps in my sump. One of them runs from the mains, the other (with a separate float switch set a few inches higher) from the inverter. Works well, and while I've never had to run the battery all the way down, in my installation I think it would run for several days to a week, depending of course upon how much water is coming in.
I already have batteries (Score:1, Interesting)
I already have three [lead-acid] batteries providing emergency power in my house: the burglar alarm, the alarm's GSM modem, and the UPS serving the network cabinet. The alarm batteries are for obvious reasons; the network UPS is because I got tired of resetting the damn modem and router after every one-second power failure.
Outside of that, considering how rare power failures are, we have no reason for a whole-house UPS or generator. Should a hurricane cause a multi-day power failure, my calculations show that it's not worth $1600 for a standby generator to save $70 of food in the fridge. Like any good Florida residents, we have non-perishable food, bottled water, and a gas chainsaw at the ready. Our cell phone batteries can be charged off our cars' lighter sockets, or in the worst case, I could cannibalize the 12 V battery from the burglar alarm and MacGyverize a phone charger to it.
If our neighborhood should ever get a sewer main, there's a chance my house would need a sewer grind/lift pump. Likewise, if I ever decide to install plumbing in the basement--which is below the septic tank--I'd need a lift pump. Either of these situations would, for obvious reasons, tempt me to lay down $1600 for a 7 kW auto-start standby generator.
Re:Uhh....lithium ion? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you can charge the thing during off-peak hours, then run your house off the battery during peek hours, that's a fairly obvious "cost saving measure".
You're right, of course, but the power companies will find a way to take those savings away from you if this becomes popular, you know that. Well, at least the one in my State certainly would, that is, if they didn't get a law passed to make home power storage flat-out illegal. Wouldn't put that past them either. They're bloodsuckers: for example, manufacturers that try to set up self-generating facilities to save money generally find themselves in court. Power companies are like record companies: they don't want anything to interfere with the way they distribute their wares, even if those changes might prove highly beneficial and profitable. Excessively conservative, I guess you could say.
Of course, if you can save $1000 over two years but the battery runs you over $10000, it's not ready for prime time.
No argument there. I wouldn't buy into this just for the express purpose of lowering your electric bill. Really it's more for peace of mind, I suppose.
Re:Boom. (Score:2, Interesting)
Between airbags and these large battery packs, cars are becoming more and more dangerous (Airbags do save lives, but have you ever seen the aftermath when a firefighter accidentally cuts the nitrogen cylinder to one? Or gets in the way when one accidentally goes off?)... I remember another video where a firefighter was holding C-Spine traction (Holding the victims head still, to prevent spinal injuries from causing more damage) on a 2 seat BMW. One that had explosive actuated rollbars that came up only in the event of an accident (I assume to maintain the aesthetics of the car). Well, while they were freeing the victim from the wreckage, the rollbars were somehow triggered. When it came up, it hit him in the neck right below his jaw and killed him on the spot.
Don't forget, safety is always a trade-off. Usually it's between safe and usable. Sometimes it's between safe under normal conditions for more dangerous in edge cases. Still others, it's safe vs practicality (which is where these home batteries probably fall). I'd imagine that building code would be altered shortly after these things start popping up in homes to mandate fire suppression systems where they are installed (or at least a fireproof compartment that they get stored it). Would that alter their usability? No. Would it make them less worth it? Well, that's for consumers to decide...
There's other things besides Lithium Ion (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd prefer an EESU from EESTOR (if that ever happens), since it would be cheaper on a buck-per-Joule level and it would last for a very, very long time. Second to that, nickel-iron batteries, which are heavy and inefficient, but survive much abuse and have working lifetimes far longer than that of most other batteries. Pity they are no longer made in the United States; much of their price is presumably in just shipping them here.
Re:Boom. (Score:4, Interesting)
[citation needed] /morbid curiosity
Re:Boom. (Score:3, Interesting)
Probably also has to do with cost, the Tesla battery cost to Tesla is estimated to be $30k, and last 100k miles, so $.30/mile in battery cost alone as a upfront cost. Allowable for a "luxary" but not very feasible for "economy"
Re:Boom. (Score:5, Interesting)
"Reserves", for anything (Lithium, oil, whatever), are calculated according to what is predicted to be economically feasible to extract within the near future. If something suddenly spikes demand, resulting in a higher price, then new sources "magically" become available. That's why Malthusian disasters haven't happened.
But broadly speaking, yes, there's probably not enough Lithium in the Earth's crust to run all the cars and houses like this.
Longer (Score:2, Interesting)
Deep cycle lead acid can last a lot longer than that with shallow cycling, intelligent charging and the use of a desulphator. Mine are over ten years old now, work fine. They've lasted that long because I never beat on them.
Telco exchanges had/have big aquarium looking lead acid backup batteries that lasted twenty years then tons got sold off cheap to enthusiasts where they were put into service for the earlier adopter off grid solar guys. This is *old* mother earth news and home power magazine info, and the battery subject has been looked at in depth by literally hundreds of people, and year after decade lead acid still rules for the cash involved for large applications, until you get to utility scale, where it is pumped water storage and turbines, etc.
Lead acid is still the king for stationary storage purposes when it comes to amp hours/dollars, for home use. I seriously doubt that lithium ion will come close for a long time, I mean, look at what replacement cellphone and laptop batteries cost.
And how many just car starter batteries do we see at whatever*mart or the auto parts stores that use lithium tech yet? Yep, about zilch, people don't want to spend a thousand bucks for a starter battery. There are still some advances in lead acid out there, the most common you see for cars is the spiral system from Optima http://www.optimabatteries.com/home.php [optimabatteries.com] , and the Firefly company http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ [fireflyenergy.com] is allegedly going to start having more fleet sales "soon" with their lead "sponge" tech, and perhaps eventually normal retail.
The cheapest locally sourced way to get lead acid today that I have found is to look around at forklift stores and get an electric traction battery pack @ 12 to 48 VDC (probably other voltages as well, haven't looked for awhile now).
They are *heavy* and come in steel cases with lifting points and welded bus bars.
Re:Boom. (Score:4, Interesting)
How do you stop a battery fire? Put water on it (AFFF is mostly water)? A dry chemical fire extinguisher? More likely, just let it burn out...
With regards to lithium batteries, just let it burn out and evacuate the area is what we do. HF is kind of dangerous and water doesn't put out lithium. It's interesting working down the hall from a battery testing lab.
Re:Boom. (Score:4, Interesting)
But for the individual homeowner, it really does seem like overkill. If our power becomes so erratic that these things actually start to make sense, I'm going to say we've a lot more serious issues to deal with.
Now, I actually have a similar set up to this, I have a bank of 10 110Ah lead gelcell batteries connected to a 3500w Xantrex charger/inverter. It's worth every penny.
You see, the thing is, I live in the third world. Around here, we have power outages about once every two weeks. Usually they last less than a couplefew hours, but occasionally they go much longer, the record since I've been here is three days. While I will admit that I reduced my power consumption for the three day one once I found out how long it was going to last, I still kept the important stuff going (fridge, water pump, computer etc).
Most gringos around here have some sort of generator, be it gasoline, diesel or LPG, and while the initial investment is lower, I think the battery system is far superior. For one thing, it's almost completely silent (the cooling fans kick in on the inverter, and the ceiling fans start to hum because of the modified sine power the inverter provides), and for another it's got an instant transfer of power (Even with a automatic transfer switch on a generator, there's a slight delay while the generator warms up, not to mention that the humid, salty air around here tends to do bad things to ATSes, an dyou really don't want to see what happens when they fail so as to leave the generator on when the line power comes on.).
While those are nice, what's really superior is the fact that even when the line power is flowing, the battery system serves to condition it, brown outs and surges both.
Oh, and even with the efficiency losses, it's cheaper to recharge the batteries than it would be to buy the gas/diesel/LPG.
While I will admit that my case is not typical, I think it's foolish of you to dismiss this technology out of hand.
Re:Boom. (Score:0, Interesting)
We tried diesels here in the US, and found them wanting. Everyone here remembers the slow, smelly Mercedes turbo diesels in the 1980s which could asphyxiate lanes of traffic, and the people who would pass those pieces of on the breakdown line than be behind them.
You can keep your particulate belching diesel car engines that add to smog and H2S content in the air. We'll keep gasoline engines, even though they are imperfect, and move to hybrids. Diesel has no place in small engines, as they are just too polluting.
There is one big difference between a pickup truck diesel and a car. Economy of scale. The larger a diesel engine gets, the more economical it becomes. Compared to larger vehicles, small car diesels are just plain out grossly inefficient, and cannot even completely burn the fuel dropped in the cylinder.
The 80's called, they want their prejudices back.. (Score:5, Interesting)
As for efficiency, the TDI is currently averaging 49 miles/gallon for the sportwagen, that's real honest-to-goodness driving on both freeway and city streets, and is ~7mpg higher than the official rating of the car.
I didn't quite believe it, so I did the calculation myself based on mileage and purchased fuel, and my figures came to 52 miles/gallon. If anything, the car is under-reporting the fuel economy. Not to mention that diesel is actually cheaper per gallon than unleaded.
Note that the jetta sportwagen is the identical size to the normal jetta (it's just a different top), and that the engine is only a 2.0 litre engine, smaller than the 2.5 litre base jetta engine.
In short, I don't think you could actually be any more wrong about diesel engines.
Simon.
Re:Boom. (Score:2, Interesting)
Anon because I've modded.
North America has really nasty storms, and lots of areas have above-ground power lines. I was out for five days when Katrina hit, and I'm 200 miles from the coast. Three trees had fallen in the space of a few hundred yards, and every one of them had to be removed before I got power again. Ice storms are frequent causes of wintertime outages in colder parts of the country. Other than that, we get the occasional lightning-based blip, exploding transformer, etc., but anything more than an hour or so is usually a downed line.
Re:The 80's called, they want their prejudices bac (Score:3, Interesting)
If we all drove diesel cars, gasoline would get very very cheap....there's not too much flexibility to the ratio of diesel/gasoline that comes from a given barrel of crude.
Latest energy mining trends in the US suggest that we should be looking for LNG (methane) burning cars in the not too distant future.