"Home Batteries" Power Houses For a Week 325
tjansen writes "Panasonic has announced plans to create 'home batteries.' They are lithium-ion batteries large enough to power a house for a week, making energy sources such as solar and wind power more feasible. Also, you can buy energy when it is cheapest, and don't need to worry about power outages anymore."
Re:Boom. (Score:5, Informative)
Dude, most hybrids out there use NiMH batteries. Sorry to give you cognitive dissonance.
Re:Uhh....lithium ion? (Score:3, Informative)
You don't see it as a cost saving measure? If you can charge the thing during off-peak hours, then run your house off the battery during peek hours, that's a fairly obvious "cost saving measure".
Of course, if you can save $1000 over two years but the battery runs you over $10000, it's not ready for prime time.
Re:Tense (Score:4, Informative)
Who wrote this?
Some Guy In A Blog, apparently. It's attributed to Fumio Ohtsubo, President of Panasonic (under a different, less common spelling) but links to no press releases or speeches.
Ohtsubo did an interview about Panasonic working on a kind of fuel cell/LiIon hybrid battery and making a $1B investment (in 2012!) in home power systems, including solar. Here is a link to an actual reputable news source rather than a blogger with poor reading comprehension skills:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ajhto3eO4fpM [bloomberg.com]
Vaporware (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry, but if they have only just "announced plans", then, for the foreseeable future, I still can not power a house for a week, and I still need to worry about power outages.
Wake me up, when I can pick these up at Lowe's... Or, at least, order them online somewhere...
Indeed, TFA [nexus404.com] itself uses the proper tenses and gives the ETA for what currently can only be called "vaporware":
CmdrTaco, WTF?..
Re:Boom. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, next-gen hybrids are and will be using various types of lithium-ion batteries and several companies, including Panasonic, Sanyo, Hitachi, and Toyota are manufacturing them. Tesla Motors already uses lithium-ion batteries in their cars.
Other considerations (Score:4, Informative)
Some of these technologies are of no use to those of us that live in areas where the cost of energy is consistent all day and night and year round.
Part of that maybe the problem (no intelligence in the infrastructure). But in the meantime if I were to have solar or any other resource put up that would benefit from stored energy for later use, it'll throw the payback vs normal utility curve way off to where I'd have to live here for decades to get my money back in anything but smugness.
As far as LI battery technology, it seems that the Prius used NMhd batteries because the number of charge discharge cycles was greater, since the batteries in the story were expected to have a cycle per day, the owner would have to replace them realistically every 3-4 years.
As far as the greater energy content of LI batteries, that is a risk that is always present with batteries. As long as the controller / charger is smart and has a layer or two of fault checking, the risk of runaway thermal events is pretty low. (The problem people had with Lithium Ion AA cell batteries where they are available was when people put them into standard NiCad or NiMh chargers, which apply too much current too quickly and make them pop to start fires. Since this is an integrated system by Panasonic with no capacity to mix and match technology evident, I'd say the risks is low.)
It would be possible with standard deep cycle lead acid batteries, but than you have to have climate control for your batteries above and beyond that proposed, and than your dedicating a good chunk of floorspace to batteries (You can't stack them because of heat buildup when discharging). I know the Central Offices I've been in have had a good chunk of their floorspace dedicated to just power, and even than only for the few minutes it takes for the diesel to kick over .. and you don't want to know what happens to expensive telephone equipment when it starts getting fed progressive amounts lower than 48VDC.)
Re:Boom. (Score:5, Informative)
It's not the average times that get you. It's the outlier numbers that collapse into the averages. We've seen eight hours without power in -20 degreee F weather here in Montana. It's why I own a generator and can switch power to the (gas) furnace any time I want to. When you're talking about protection from power outages, what you want to know is does the power EVER go out for long enough intervals to do you damage: And everywhere I've lived - Pennsylvania, NYC, Florida, California, Montana - the answer is an unqualified yes. Right now, there's no sense going without UPSs for computer systems and backups for heating and critical power systems like fishtanks, refrigerators, etc.
The power grid is subject to people running into telephone poles, ice on the lines, old transformers bursting into flames, lightning and geomagnetic storms, human error, and a bunch more things. That's the nature of it - it's out there in the real world. You can protect a power system within your own walls such that it is much more reliable, and that's no slam on the power company - you simply don't have as much to contend with.
Now, if you have no pipes to freeze, no data to lose, no fish to watch float to the top, no freezers full of food to see turn into biohazard... sure, I can see depending on the average. After all... what could go wrong?
Re:Boom. (Score:4, Informative)
Been there, done sorta that with the sump pump backup battery. You may want to consider something even more different. I have a city-water siphon pump backup. No battery needed. As long as my water supply is working, I have sump pump backup. Sure, it's not terrifically efficient, and wastes city water if it gets used - but that's cheap compared to the cleanup effort and property loss potential if my basement flooded again.
Re:Uhh....lithium ion? (Score:5, Informative)
I would, since the status quo is no battery at all.
The cool kids on the block already have natural gas generators hooked up to their houses in the case of power outage, and I would guess that a natural gas generator would last significantly longer at a significantly lower TCO than any currently available battery technology (when at the scale of powering a house).
I dont think so... (Score:1, Informative)
sorry, but this is BS.
50kWh Li-Ion battery pack in tesla roadster weights about 500kg, and I'm not sure if I want to know how much it cost. if you wants to know, it is about 36'000 USD (wiki...)
if your home consumes about 1kW per hour at average, these (half a ton, 36 grand) batteries batteries can power it for about two days. a week ? 1.5 ton and over 100 thousand for batteries !
are they nuts ?
what about safety? if they are overcharged or pierced it could have fatal consequences. how long will they last? even if it was 10 years, the cost is crazy.
Re:But what about the massive environmental damage (Score:5, Informative)
both wrong. the periodic table has nothing to do with commonness.
From: http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/periodic/faq/what-element-is-most-abundant.shtml [frostburg.edu] :
"On earth, oxygen is the most common element, making up about 47% of the earth's mass. Silicon is second, making up 28%, followed by aluminum (8%), iron (5%), magnesium (2%), calcium (4%), sodium (3%), and potassium (3%). All of the remaining elements together make up less than 1% of the earth's mass."
Re:Boom. (Score:3, Informative)
Is the separate float switch for a second pump? I seem to remember the pumps themselves are not so expensive (compared to the batteries and rest of the setup). If the second float for the battery activation is on a second pump then it also helps if A) water is comming in fast enough to overwhelm the first pump (shouldn't happen generally anyway) and B) if the first pump fails
Of course, if you lose a pump AND have more water comming in than one can handle, then, your pretty screwed anyway.
Yes, a second pump. It's an independent backup system in case either line power or the primary pump fails. Not infallible, but a lot better than depending upon a single pump. I did this after a power failure a few years ago almost left me with a basement full of water. Naturally, after spending all that time and energy I've never had to use it. Still, every so often I test it, and occasionally swap the power cables to the pumps to even out the wear and tear.
I looked into those 12-volt "Ace in the Hole" type systems and wasn't very impressed, and given that the second pump only ran about $80 and I got the rest of the stuff from Ebay for very reasonable prices I figured I'd do myself one better.
Re:Boom. (Score:1, Informative)
I call bogus!
...Between airbags and these large battery packs, cars are becoming more and more dangerous (Airbags do save lives, but have you ever seen the aftermath when a firefighter accidentally cuts the nitrogen cylinder to one? Or gets in the way when one accidentally goes off?)... ..
What?? Airbags aren't driven by nitrogen cylinders! They have a small amount of compound such as sodium azide contained in the bag which (semi-exposively) decomposes to gas when electrically triggered. When you are so far wrong on that then I'm going go doubt the rest of your post. Especially since you don't give any links to all those videos you claim to have seen.
To give you some benefit of the doubt, perhaps you've seen someone cutting into the gas-charged struts often used to hold open a rear hatch.
Re:Boom. (Score:1, Informative)
Airbags do not have a nitrogen cylinder. They inflate via a chemical reaction involving sodium azide (NaN3) with potassium nitrate (KNO3) to produce nitrogen gas. Hot blasts of the nitrogen inflate the airbag.
Re:Uhh....lithium ion? (Score:3, Informative)
Power companies are like record companies: they don't want anything to interfere with the way they distribute their wares, even if those changes might prove highly beneficial and profitable.
Really? All power companies?
http://www.aps.com/main/green/choice/solar/default.html?source=hme [aps.com]
Re:Boom. (Score:4, Informative)
http://safetravel.dot.gov/definitions.html
The lithium equivalent calculator on this site suggests
That your calculations are a few orders of magnitude
Off.
So, 80 kg for a battery that holds 1000kWh.
Also, we have practically limitless lithium reserves in seawater.
Re:But what about the massive environmental damage (Score:2, Informative)
The lack of lithium in the universe is one of the great unsolved mysteries in astronomy.
In solar fusion, it is rather difficult to form Li from H and He. The "normal" form of He is He-4. If H-1 is added to this, Li-5 is formed. However, Li-5 is not stable, and decays to He-5, which decays to He-4. Therefore, it is not possible to form stable Li using the most abundant isotopes of H and He.
Heavier elements are usually formed by combining multiple He-4 nuclei. This can give Be-8, C-12, O-16, and so on. These elements and isotopes show correspondingly high abundances in the universe as a whole.
In order to form any isotope of Li, the Li-5 step must be completely avoided. Instead of adding H-1 to He-4, either H-2 or H-3 must be added, forming stable Li-6 or Li-7. The H-2 and H-3 are present in much lower concentrations than H-1, and so we are much less likely for these to interact with He-4. There is some interaction, which is where the current Li comes from.
The Official BMW Rescue Manual (Score:5, Informative)
[citation needed] /morbid curiosityZ
Stories like this always have the flavor of a urban legend.
The automated roll bar deployment is a feature of some BMW covertibles only.
It uses springs. Not explosives.
Emergency services guidelines [oss.bmw.de] September 2009.
For a full description with handsome cutaway illustrations in color click to pages 22 and 23 of the PDF.
Re:Boom. (Score:5, Informative)
The mass of lithium in a Li ion battery is no where near 1/2. For example, a LiMn2O4 Cathode is only 1/20 lithium by mass. Also, the 'recoverable' reserves of Lithium are at least three time higher than that 11 Megatonnes estimate. See http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com].
The earth's crust is nearly 20 ppm lithium by mass, so lithium is faily abundant. However, there are very few economically recoverable sources of lithium. If prices rise, more sources become available. We simple cannot 'run out' of lithium.
World production of lithium is another matter, it is only about 40,000 tonnes a year.
Re:Boom. (Score:1, Informative)
Throwing out a freezer full of bad food every few years is probably cheaper than the purchase and maintenance of a backup system.
After all, a freezer will probably go for at least 48 hours in moderate climates without much of a problem given the thermal mass of a ton of food that's frozen solid.
Worrying about the food in the fridge may be more reasonable, you've probably got 24 hours if you don't open it at all. But again, that's probably only a couple of hundred bucks, tops.
Re:Boom. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Boom. (Score:5, Informative)
I was doing contract programming at one of the auto companies, in a plant that made "bumper shocks" along with other parts, when a defective weld caused one to fire its piston through an assembly line worker in another plant and killed him. The whole plant was in mourning. (And thank goodness I was in a different product line...)
Gently stopping a 5mph car in a matter of inches, without incurring driving-safety-imparing damage, requires very large and very-well-controlled forces. Bumper shock absorbers (at least that model) are (extremely) pressurized with nitrogen, to keep the fluids in the correct place and act as an initial "spring" during the first part of the travel in a crash, before the fluid friction is ramped up. If the weld holding the piston in fails you have a good approximation to a high-powered pistol firing a large slug.
Of course the manufacturers try REALLY HARD to make sure the welds and the cylinders are solid, given the possible damages if one fails. So getting one to fail in the field is tough. But any manufacturing process (short of single-atom-placement-and-check nanotech and maybe even that) can be expected to have a few defective parts slip through inspection.
[citation provided] (Score:3, Informative)
That one was tested by Mythbusters. IIRC, they concluded that it was almost impossible to launch the bumper accidentally.
And here's a link to mythbustersresults.com [mythbustersresults.com] so you can check it yourself. Assuming they don't just make up the results on that site, of course.