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Comments: 609 +- Hardware: Toyota Experimenting With Joystick Control For Cars on Wednesday October 21, @10:49AM
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alphadogg writes "Today it's the stuff of video games, but Toyota is experimenting with joystick control for a new breed of compact cars and transporters. The world's biggest car maker built the technology into a couple of concept vehicles that were on display Wednesday at the Tokyo Motor Show. The FT-EV II, which got its world premiere at the event, is a compact electric vehicle designed for short trips. The car retains seats for four passengers despite being much more compact than most other cars, and packs drive-by-wire technology so it can be controlled with a joystick. The car's steering, braking and acceleration can be controlled by hand so foot pedals aren't needed, freeing up space to provide more legroom for the driver."
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Johnny Cab (Score:3, Funny)
Have a hellava day!
Re:Johnny Cab (Score:5, Funny)
I wonder if Honda or Nissan will now go for a Wii controller?
Parent
Re:Johnny Cab (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing inherently worse about driving with a stick than with a wheel and pedals is that it's much easier to accidentally overcorrect, especially if you are unfamiliar with using an analog joystick (in other words you're either not pressing it at all, or you're pressing it as far to the right or left as you can). Well, there's also the stopping issue causing your body to shift and therefore bump the stick, possibly preventing you from stopping.
At low speeds, I don't see these as being much more dangerous than a conventional steering mechanism, especially if there is signal noise filtration (shaky hands? let's ignore that) and a rate-of-turn limiter that scales with speed (simulation of "wheel resistance").
The lack of a steering wheel might increase the risk of back and neck injury in an accident, however, due to the increased space you'd have to move in (even with an airbag).
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Re:Johnny Cab (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing about a steering wheel vs. joystick is that the former translates a large change in angle to a much smaller change in wheel angle, while a joystick does the exact opposite. You could certainly engineer a joystick with similar characteristics, but it would take up a lot of room -- hence the invention of the steering wheel.
The minor corrections that we continuously, yet nearly unconsciously, make while driving would become burdensome when applied to a joystick. In a simulation like a video game, there are no road imperfections, steering dead zones, alignment, or tire balancing issues, and therefore mastering the joystick is quite possible (but by no means simple). Many games also employ variable stick-to-wheel angle ratios, so that a given stick angle at a low speed results in a larger change in wheel angle than at higher speed. These would likely be necessary for real vehicles, but they make it difficult to predict directional changes at a constant speed, and increasingly difficult with speed AND direction changes, since stick deflection must be increased or decreased as velocity changes.
Even absent such "assistant" technologies, without independent controls steering while changing velocity becomes more challenging, not less. Say you're braking around a turn, which is followed by a short length of straight road and a stop sign/light. With independent controls, you maintain more or less static pressure on the brake pedal, while allowing the steering wheel to return to its natural zero-angle position. With a joystick, you have to maintain that position backwards while deliberately moving toward the center X axis, which is a much more challenging proposition, especially with inertial forces.
Finally, the joystick necessarily either falls victim to one of two (or both) of the following:
1) gorilla-arm [wikipedia.org] when mounted in front of the driver, due to the fact that the operator can't rest any weight on the control.
2) When mounted at or near the console, it requires the exclusive use of the the closest arm, which can also lead to fatigue. In a console-mounted position, it's hard to imagine a positioning system as effective as tilt/telescopic steering wheels to compensate for differing arm lengths and seat positions (which reflect torso and leg length).
The steering wheel may be an old design, but they got it right.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
However, that leads to a possible over accel condition, which can be very bad, but once ur pushed into your seat, slowing should be much easier.
Power Steering failure? (Score:5, Insightful)
What happens when there's a power steering failure? I know it's not a common problem, but it is a problem which randomly comes up. At least with a steering wheel the driver can generally muscle the wheels to turn- I can't imagine a joystick acting as an actual lever to turn the wheels, but as more of an electronic device to turn on some motors which would handle this.
Re:Power Steering failure? (Score:5, Interesting)
Very good point. I've run out of gas twice, which kills power steering -- both times I'd have been stranded in the middle lane of a busy road had I not been able to coast the car long enough to pull over somewhere safe.
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Re:Power Steering failure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Very good point. I've run out of gas twice
Once is unlucky. Twice is incompetent.
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Re:Power Steering failure? (Score:4, Insightful)
Very good point. I've run out of gas twice
Once is unlucky. Twice is incompetent.
Not if your gas guage is broke, or if you are.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Very good point. I've run out of gas twice
Once is unlucky. Twice is incompetent.
Thrice is enemy action.
Re:Power Steering failure? (Score:4, Informative)
Running out of gas does not kill power steering. As long as your transmission is still engaged and you're still moving forward, the engine is still turning over and the accessory belts are still moving (i.e. power steering pump is still active).
Not true at all.
I've been in a situation where the engine is off, still in drive, and going downhill (I was actually accelerating). I quickly lost both power steering and power brakes as I used them. Everything gets manual very quickly.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
When I was pretty new to driving, I was rolling down a residential street in my dad's '78 Cougar. The engine died and the power steering went with it. I wasn't going too fast, but I was rolling straight toward a parked car. It took all I had to slowly pull the car into a turn. It was a very strange sensation, slowly heading towards a fender bender as I worked at the wheel. I did manage it, and it wouldn't have been too bad for me physically, but the other car was much newer and smaller and I would have
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
A joystick can be linked in the same way that a steering wheel can. Look at aircraft: many older ones have joysticks. Most newer craft have yokes (essentially a wheel), but both are linked to the control surfaces physically in much the same way that a steering wheel is linked to a car's wheels.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Airbus aircraft are completely fly-by-wire, I don't believe there is any mechanical connection to the control surfaces at all.
A lot of newer fighter aircraft and such are too, but that's really a separate issue. Yokes or joysticks can both be fly-by-wire, but both have also traditionally been physically linked to the controls. Nothing about being a joystick necessarily *requires* the system to be fly-by-wire.
Great (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Great (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Old news - Saab tried this in the 80s (Score:4, Interesting)
They had some experimental vehicle that used a joystick. Upshot was that the joystick is NOT a good way to control a car due to its small range of movement. Doing subtle manouvering was a right PITA. Sure , technology may improve things but frankly a steering wheel gives perfect feedback for what it does and if something ain't broken...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not what I remember. I remember that it was very accurate and very quick. It was easy to safely swerve around around a pylon safely, for example. Much more so than a wheel. Ultimately a stick would highly benefit from a variable ratio. The faster you go, the more reduced the ratio is. Or if you move the stick hard and fast, the ratio temporarily increases or something. With such a system, subtle maneuvers should be easy and accurate.
joystick vs k&m (Score:5, Funny)
What, no keyboard + mouse option?
-l
Re:joystick vs k&m (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Won't catch on until you can keybind (Score:5, Funny)
gimme a control that lets me:
[StartMacro Name = 'RoadRage']
/swerveleft
/blinkheadlights
/accelerate 90
/flipoffotherdriver
[EndMacro]
and then we'll be talking...till then...back to the drawing board.
reversed controls? (Score:5, Funny)
will the controls have reverse controls or plain?
will there be some nifty fire buttons?
spy hunter looks so much more realistic now.
now im waiting for a car that is controlled by a keyboard. that would be awsome
Special license needed? (Score:4, Insightful)
Very non-standard controls... the reason I can jump in basically any car and drive it is because the operations are mostly standardised. Left pedal clutch, middle break, right accelerator, steering wheel is obvious, indicators is the stick on the right. Lights etc trial-and-error mostly. Trucks, buses - well anything that hits the road and has more than two wheels pretty much works like that.
This is so different, will we need special licenses/training for it? How about force-feedback, for example? I know it's experimental but still makes you wonder how about using it on the road.
And safety. For such a super-compact car. Crumple zones don't compact well - maybe I should state that different. They need space to crumple in. Something like that. And that is space OUTSIDE the passenger compartment of course.
Re:Special license needed? (Score:5, Informative)
Not having pedals or a steering column to deal with in a crash gives the engineers lots of scope to make cars safer. I'll be following this with interest.
The control layout we have in cars today wasn't finalized until after WW2. Prior to that, many cars had the accelerator in the middle, with the clutch and brake on either side. Some cars had unique setups - ever driven a Model T?
Even today, there are two "standards" for minor controls on right hand drive cars. British RHD cars have the turning signals on the left of the steering column. Japanese and Australian RHD cars have the turning signals on the right. I drive a Mitsubishi L300 Delica, so I'm used to reaching with my right hand for the turning signals.
While it had a steering wheel, the GM Hy-Wire concept was drive by wire as well. Some Citroen models were effectively drive by wire (e.g. the SM), with no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and road wheels unless the engine or power steering failed.
...laura
Parent
Re:Special license needed? (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK you can pass your test in an automatic car, but then you aren't allowed to drive a stick (what we call 'manual gearbox'). You need to take your test in a manual gearbox car to be allowed to drive manual+auto.
One of the great things about old land rovers like mine is of course the non-standard controls that make it harder for people to steal. First it's diesel, so you have to know to warm the engine on the 'glow' setting for a bit. If they get past that and the engine starts, then they have to know I've left the transfer box lever in neutral so the wheels won't go round even with the gear lever in. Oh and just for fun I can leave it in 4wd so if they do nick it the transmission will lock up on the road and leave them with a broken car. And half the time the battery is disconnected anyway because it goes flat if I don't drive for two weeks. Drive-by-wire? No thanks! And all those wusses complaining about failing power steering! Sheesh, grow some muscles!
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Re:Special license needed? (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK you can pass your test in an automatic car, but then you aren't allowed to drive a stick (what we call 'manual gearbox'). You need to take your test in a manual gearbox car to be allowed to drive manual+auto.
We should do this in the US, actually.
Drive-by-wire? No thanks! And all those wusses complaining about failing power steering! Sheesh, grow some muscles!
Actually, manual and power assisted steering boxes use very different gearings. There is less torque multiplication (lower numerical gearing) in a assisted box... because it's "assisted" and doesn't normally need it. A car with non functioning power steering will need much more effort than a car with manual steering because the gearing is wider. Vehicle weight over the front tires and the front tire width has a big effect, as well.
An example would be the manual steering in my father's 1955 Stuebaker versus the 1984 BMW 318i I drove which had power steering but would leak out all its fluid in a day or so (so I always drove it empty). The BMW took a lot of effort, the Studebaker much less so.
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I seem to remember (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I seem to remember (Score:4, Insightful)
The Wright brothers kept trying because they were dealing with a new field and improvements to technology were being made.
Driving with a stick is not a new field, a little history and you'd notice that cars started out this way. Steering wheels were the progression AWAY from driving with a stick. To top it off, nothing has changed to improve the technology. Adding computers and fly by wire actually makes it worse, unless you add even more technology to make it essentially the same as before you added the computer.
This is roughly the same as arguing that its a good idea to put the engine the Wright brothers used in the Flyer into your modern day Cessna and trying to fly it.
You are correct, if no one tried there would never be any improvements ... problem is, they already tried, and the improvement was NOT TO USE A STICK.
History is hard, lets go shopping!
Parent
Finally (Score:3, Funny)
A car with yaw control...
So many problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) As somebody else mentioned, power steering failure is a big one
2) A car does not move conducive to the way a joystick moves, the throttle/break and steering need to be seperate.
or your just asking for trouble in a hard turn or emergency situation.
3) I guarantee you, steering fatigue will set in if a drivers only means for controlling the vehicle are with one hand.
4) I could go on but I think most of these issues are quite obvious.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've flown an F15 simulator (the real one, not FlightGear) and the joy stick is pretty cool once you figure it out.
The plane is fly-by-wire. You set the stick to what you want and the computers take care of it. So you set the stick to fly straight and the computers fly it straight.
The one disconcerting thing is that the stick doesn't center; you put the plane in a right hand turn and it stays there until you apply reverse pressure to make it fly straight.
So I can see something like this. You set it to go
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
5) Cannot eat breakfast burrito and twitter that I am eating a breakfast burrito while steering with knee anymore.
FTFY. Wait... were you describing a problem, or a solution?
Feel free to ignore (Score:3, Informative)
Here already? (Score:5, Funny)
I can just see it (Score:4, Insightful)
A yoke is just plain more stable than a stick. The latter is great for quick input of large control motions, but has more drawbacks than advantages where the objective is smooth and precise results with minimal interference.
For all of the "fighter jock" fantasies, drivers are a lot more like jumbo jet jockeys. That includes race drivers -- or don't you think that someone would have put this to use on the F1 circuit already if it was actually better?
change drivers without stopping (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't understand (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Force Feedback? (Score:5, Insightful)
The feedback is critical. The problem is, a force feedback on the joystick would probably make a bigger difference than on a wheel, since smaller movements would make larger turns. In that vein, it seems a wheel would give more fine-grained control. You may not be able to change the turn angle as fast, but you would probably be able to be more precise, which in most cases, I think is more important.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially in Europe. I can see joystick control working fine on American streets and highways, but in countries where they have two-lane roads barely the width of two smart cars, I'm not so sure.
Re:Force Feedback? (Score:5, Insightful)
In racing games it's usually considered far preferable to use a wheel over a joystick because honestly you really don't need to go from straight to 40 degrees that quickly. Ever. The car has traction limits.
Control > Twitch.
Parent
Re:Force Feedback? (Score:4, Funny)
I swear to God, Jimmy, if you bump me again while I'm driving I'll drive us into the next tree I see!
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Horror (Score:3, Interesting)
Frightens the living daylights out of me driving an automatic car!
An automatically shifting car? Terrifying. What's next? Automatic traction control or *gasp* all-wheel drive? The horror... This automation thing has to stop.
You're driving along and suddenly the car jumps and changes up or down the gears. Hey car, I want to decide when I want you to change gear, don't want you jumping up and down through the gearbox when you feel like it.
Spoken like someone who rarely gets stuck in traffic jams. I like a manual transmission too (prefer it actually) but there is a beauty in simply pointing the car and having it go. If your automatic transmission lurches that much that it bothers you there is probably something wrong with the machine. Lots of cars have a manu-matic as well if you
Re:Force Feedback? (Score:4, Insightful)
Even worse is that the dynamics of a vehicle can make joystick control even worse. When you're just on a computer there is no angular acceleration of your body so its relatively simple.
As you go into a left turn, your hand wants to keep going the direction it was going, which is actually right from your frame of reference. Meaning you have to pull left harder.
Except that pull isn't the same for all speeds. Either they're going to have to dial down the controls for at speed or you're going to have a few people that get it up to 60 mph try to take a turn and over shoot their intended position....
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Modern cars, sadly, have little of the feedback of old. I'm convinced this makes them less safe, because you can't feel what the road's doing under you like you used to. This, coupled with ever-fatter tyres which grip and grip and grip and then suddenly don't grip, adds up to bad news. But people mostly manage. Feedback's great, but it doesn't seem to be necessary for most driving conditions.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ask and you shall receive: picture index [mainichi.jp].
If you look at the third row from the top, the middle picture, that is the steering system they are talking about. I know it doesn't look like a joystick but the caption says it is of the Toyota FT-EV II, the same one mentioned in the article.
Re:zomg (Score:5, Informative)
Apparently you haven't played many racing games...
Wheels make the games easier, not harder. Playing GT4 on high challenge levels in fast cars with a joystick is really pretty damn hard.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Didn't you mean up-up-down-down-L-R-L-R-B-A-start?