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Comments: 147 +- Hardware: ARM and Dual-Atom Processors in New Portables on Friday October 02, @03:09PM
Posted
by
ScuttleMonkey
on Friday October 02, @03:09PM
from the arms-and-atoms-and-netbooks-oh-my dept.
from the arms-and-atoms-and-netbooks-oh-my dept.
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portables
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hardware
chrb writes to tell us that Dell's new Latitude Z has finally been delivered as promised, complete with ARM processor. Codenamed BlackTop, the device runs a modified version of Suse Linux, and is capable of near-instant bootup. Dell's research has apparently found that some early users spend 70% of their time in the Linux environment." Relatedly snydeq writes "Colombian computer maker Haleron has designed a netbook that combines Atom processors in an effort to provide the performance of a standard laptop at a price more affordable to Latin Americans. The Swordfish Net N102 includes two Atom N270 processors running at 1.6GHz. Haleron worked for six months to modify Intel's 945 chipset to run the two processors. The processors divide the workload, much like a dual-core processor does, the company said. The netbook, which begs the question, when does a netbook stop being a netbook, comes with Windows XP Home Edition. 'We found that it works best on the Windows XP operating system. Both Windows Vista and the new Windows 7 performed below Windows XP in the load sharing department,' the company said."
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When does a netbook stop being a netbook? (Score:2)
I'd say somewhere around $500 or so, just on gut instinct. Much beyond that and you just have an ultraportable.
This guy starts at $1800. So, um, no. Notnetbook.
Whoops, my mistake! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering that we recently bought a laptop for someone not two months ago, with a dual-core AMD, 3GB RAM, 250GB drive, full-size keyboard with numeric keypad, 15.6" LCD, nVidia GPU and even a dual-layer DVD burner with LightScribe for only 450$CAD, I'd say that it's not a netbook if it costs above 300$CAD.
Which means epic fail for almost all so-called netbooks so far. Portability has a price, but let's keep it real.
Re:When does a netbook stop being a netbook? (Score:4, Insightful)
But what kind of battery life does that have? From my perspective a netbook has 5 to 8+ hours of use out of its battery. The cost is secondary, but generally under $500.
Parent
Re:When does a netbook stop being a netbook? (Score:4, Insightful)
But I do agree that when the "netbooks" start showing up at prices over $400 then there are other considerations to make besides price.
BTW, does anyone remember that netPC of the 90s? The idea there was a cheap $300 or less computer which leveraged the network for almost everything. It was supposed to be like a thin client but also with limited local processing power. That sector was gutted into oblivion by the industry quickly dropping the price of a full blown( sort of ) PC down to $300. And if you don't know, Microsoft has spent millions making sure Linux stayed off the netbooks and wants to now collect alot more for putting Windows 7 on them and so they've been causing the hardware on netbooks to rise and with it the prices. And now we are seeing many low cost full size laptops priced right around the netbook range of $400-$500. If this keeps up, the netbook segment is dead. But, there are supposed to be a dozen or so ARM based netbooks hitting the market this fall and in the sub $300 range so it should get interesting. Be prepared for a ton of Microsoft backed press reports and articles dismissing the ARM netbooks because they don't run Windows. You'll have to forget that the iPhone has been a success without Windows and a few other devices but they won't mention that.
LoB
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Just like in the movies! (Score:5, Funny)
The Swordfish Net N102
So if you take a couple Hollywood [imdb.com] movies [imdb.com] about hackers and that kind of stuff, and shove the names together, voila! Colombian computer.
Personally, I'm holding out for their upcoming Tron Matrix laptop. I hear the graphics are really good.
Re: (Score:2)
Do you get free blowjobs while you work?
Re: (Score:2)
Not only that, with this machine you can play the following game:
You get a blowjob while having a gun pointed towards your head and you just need to start typing the world's ten most common passwords before the a) gun blows, or b) you blow...
Why two separate procs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why wouldn't they just have used the Atom 330? Yes, it's a "nettop" processor, rather than a "netbook" processor; but it's natively dual-core, supports 64-bit, and would use less power than two physical separate N270s.
Not to mention, it would have been a *LOT* cheaper for them to develop than to "modify Intel's 945 chipset", as they claim to have done. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm going to have to call BS on this. If they literally "worked for six months", on this, it wouldn't be cheap. Claiming that this is cheaper than just throwing in a dual-core Celeron is bogus. (Atom may be ultra-low-power, and ultra-cheap; but it is still slower than a Celeron.)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you'd read the NYT article, you would know it's because it can run for days under the ARM Linux instant-on OS.
I'd like one of these with a full-size keyboard and no Intel chip. I'd certainly pay a good penny for it, too, if it had a decent hard drive and battery life measured in days. The wireless charging is gimmicky though, and I'd prefer a normal charger (I'm sure that's a good part of the cost, in addition to the Apple-like attention to shine.)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The GP wondered why someone would go through the trouble of creating a dual-socket netbook when Intel offers a processor that already offers two cores, needs less energy and wouldn't have required them to hack dual-socket support into the chipset. That's a justified question.
As for your ARM-only netbook: Those shou
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The Atom 330 is two Atom 230s duct-taped together.
The "modifying Intel's 945 chipset" was probably figuring out how Intel duct-taped two Atom 230 dies on one package hooked to an i945GC, and then doing the same thing to two separate N270 or whatever they used hooked to an i945GSE.
Re: (Score:2)
They were probably too busy getting two N270s on one board to go through Intel's product catalogs.
Sure, two N270s cost about twice as much as a 330, offer similar performance and only save 3W (5W vs 8W), but a 330 would just be too easy wouldn't it? :) Plus they now have free slashvertisement!
One question: (Score:2, Insightful)
What the fuck is a netback?
As a followup, how long until we see a netmainframe?
Re:One question: (Score:5, Funny)
It's a derogatory term for technology shipped from south of the border, and I would appreciate it if you didn't use that word.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
It seems a bit strange with your moniker, that you'd in fact be super sensitive about race, but not so much about gender.
Be that as it may, cool nick and thanks for the definition.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Just don't confuse it with a nethack: a modified netbook that has been eaten by a grue.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, a netmainframe would be small and relatively cheap... so I think IBM did one a while back. Well, it was a bit DIY, but...
IBM PS/2 P75 (486-based luggable) plus an IBM Personal/370 Adapter/A... equals a portable mainframe running OS/2 on the x86 side, emulating all the mainframe I/O, with a real mainframe processor accessible via a 3270 emulator on OS/2.
summary is wrong (Score:3, Informative)
A quick look at that Dell link shows me the Latitude has a Core 2 processor, not an atom?
Re:summary is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, that through me off as well, but the Yahoo article linked in the summary clarifies, "The Arm processor is a secondary CPU that sits alongside an Intel low-voltage," so it sounds similar to the "Instant-On" provided by SplashTop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SplashTop [wikipedia.org] on some Asus machines (e.g. Eee Box).
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Thats not nearly as impressive as I would have hoped.
Re: (Score:2)
A quick look to the article tells me that the Latitude has an additional mini-motherboard with an ARM processor running Linux
ARM, not Atom (Score:2)
But yes, it has a Core 2 processor *and* an ARM system on a card that boots instantly.
There is an ARM in there, but what's the point? (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately, the ARM CPU doesn't have access to the memory you paid for, or the hard drive you paid for - it runs out of flash memory. So it delivers precisely the feature they want to deliver, using Linux, without actually making anyone who wants to run Linux for real happy. That would be a damned sweet machine if they had left out the Intel CPU. Oh well.
I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking of just gutting an existing netbook and putting a GumStix CPU in. I'm pretty sure it would fit...
Parent
SMP is not a new thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Skype, youtube, and porn videos aren't really essential for studies,
Okay, all kidding aside, I would like to know what's new here? These people were clever in modifying Intel's chipset to make SMP work, but they're acting like having two discrete processors is a new thing compared to multi-core processing. Again: multiple processors is not a new thing. It's downright ancient history in the world of microcomputing.
Contract Intel to produce a multi-core Atom processor - oops, it exists already [intel.com]. Check out the Atom 330. could have saved yourselves a ton of effort, reduced development costs, and remained within the scope of the design specs that Intel will actually support.
Kudos for the neat hack though!
Re: (Score:2)
Atom 330 has an 8 W TDP and 9.3 W peak power consumption.
Atom N270 has a 2.5 W TDP and 3 W peak power consumption. Multiply by two, that's still 3 watts less heat to deal with (and over a larger area,) and 3.3 W less power consumption.
Also, Intel refuses to sell Atom 330s for laptop applications.
Latitude Z (Score:3, Informative)
No trackpoint mouse.
Only two mouse buttons.
No mouse buttons reachable with your hands on the keyboard.
I'll keep my Thinkpad.
Re: (Score:2)
No trackpoint mouse.
Are you talking about the IBM "clit? those things are murder on my hands. My Thinkpad has one I never use it.
Only two mouse buttons.
Enable chordmiddle!
No mouse buttons reachable with your hands on the keyboard.
I'll keep my Thinkpad.
Hey to each their own. I do agree with you on that one, I hate interfaces that make me take my hands off the keyboard. Be a great laptop for running ratpoison [wikipedia.org] though ;-)
Hur dur (Score:5, Insightful)
Still, Windows 7 needs to be ported to Arm to get more consideration from PC makers as a replacement for Intel CPUs, Gold said.
Yeah right, like it's gonna help to have an ARM Windows when people run Windows only so they can run their x86 binaries (Microsoft are not Apple, who gets any developer to do what they say, they can't make developers give a crap about making ARM binaries). Now I understand why people seldom bother RTFAing anymore. Also what's "Arm"?
Re:Hur dur (Score:5, Funny)
Also what's "Arm"?
It is a unit of measurement used to measure cost, monetary value and desirability (often used in conjuncture with leg).
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Also what's "Arm"?
It's a processor architecture [wikipedia.org] which was originally developed by a UK company called Acorn to power a range of computers back when a personal desktop computer didn't mean "PC or Mac".
Acorn, along with most computer companies that were building non-PC compatible computers at the time, failed. Long before they failed, they had spun off the processor division into a separate company which flourished.
The processor architecture has enjoyed quite a bit of success and is now found in a lot of embedded systems.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, Apple needed a low-power RISC chip for their new tablet platform - I believe it was called the Einstein, no, sorry, the Newton. They saw potential in the Acorn processor and inv
Old TA joke (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Also what's "Arm"?
Arm is Core's antagonist [wikipedia.org]. Lighter, cheaper to build, but a bit less powerful.
looking forwards to quad core arm 9 (Score:2)
personally I am looking forwards to the proposed quad core arm 9 architecture cpu's. Should be able to match or exceed the power of a modern laptop at a tiny fraction of the wattage.
Re: (Score:2)
The quad-core ARMs will be competing with dual Atoms and the CULV (Core 2-based low-voltage low-cost) chips. Not the latest and greatest.
A good start... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The question was raised, not begged (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The question was raised, not begged (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, the intransitive construction "begs the question' does. The transitive constructions "begs the question <question>" is also in common use, and has a different meaning regarding calling for a resolution of a question. The meaning of the transitive form is essentially a generalization of the intransitive form such that the intransitive form is identical to the transitive form with the assumed object being the question actually at issue in the debate. This is a rather elegant rationalization of the poor translation into English of the dubious translation into Latin of the Greek phrase that ultimately turned into "begging the question".
Arguing that the use of the transitive construction is wrong because of the well-established technical definition of the intransitive construction is, IMO, one of the most inane forms of misguided linguistic prescriptivist pedantry commonly seen, as the two are distinct constructions which are impossible to confuse with each other, and have meanings that are related the way one would expect the meanings of transitive and intransitive phrases to relate to each other (even though the more general, transitive form, is generalized from the more specific, intransitive form in a way which reflects the normal use of the English words in the phrase rather than etymology of the transitive form.)
Parent
Re:The question was raised, not begged (Score:4, Informative)
Its very simple.
Correct, because the question for which a resolution is demanded in the more general, transitive use, is generally not the one that was already the subject of debate, as it would be in the more specific, intransitive use.
Correct. Assuming the conclusions amongst your premises is the intransitive use of the phrase "begs
the question". Doing so demands a resolution of the same question that was at issue initially. While this is not the origin of the phrase "begs the question" in its transitive use, it is an accurate description of the situation described in the transitive use and consistent with the common English usage of the words in the phrase, and it shows how the transitive use may have been generalized from the intransitive use.
Except that it doesn't. The intransitive use is no more (and probably less) confusing encountered with experience with the transitive use than it is with no experience with either use; the reason the intransitive use is confusing on first encounter, with or without knowledge of the transitive use, is that (aside from being viewed as a specific case of the transitive use with a non-obvious implicit object) the construction isn't really connected to the current English uses of the words that make it up when encountered outside of the phrase.
If I had to prefer one use -- which I don't, plenty of words and phrases have different meanings in intransitive and transitive senses, and transitive and intransitive uses are readily disambiguated by the sentence strucutre -- I'd prefer the one that was consistent with the meanings of the words outside of the construction, especially since the other one doesn't have any benefit in clear communication (not even in terms of compactly expressing an idea that would otherwise require a longer phrase, since "assuming the conclusion", which doesn't require any words used outside of their normal sense, isn't any less concise than "begging the question".)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I think you're onto a lost cause there.
Still, maybe there's a chance we can save "literally" from the people who use it to mean "not literally".
Re: (Score:2)
How about "awesome"?
When's the last time someone told you something was awesome, you looked at what they were talking about and you felt awe inspired or awestruck?
+1 right on! (Score:2)
Yeah! If we could pull that off, it would be a literal coup!
Netback?! (Score:2)
"Colombian computer maker Haleron has designed a netback...
What the fuck is a "netback"? Just when I thought I was catching up to the buzzword machine, something always throws me for a loop.
Dell's Own Words (Score:5, Funny)
"In traditional "thick" mode, users access data through standard Windows..."
Sounds right to me :-D
It is all there. (Score:2, Insightful)
This is proof that they can build a cheap ARM linux machine with a great screen. Too bad all vendors are scared crazy of what the first eeePC delivered even Asus. Good enough processor in a very small form factor with commodity pricing. It is all working and build into this way to expensive laptop. Features and prices have gone up on all netbooks so close to most notebooks it does not seem worth it anymore to buy one.
Techie Machine? (Score:3, Interesting)
A computer that boots Windows on x86 but runs ARM Linux too?
What if one could use both at the same time?
i.e. kind of like coLinux but using a distinct CPU for each environment. A number of IT professionals feel hamstrung by using Windows but have corporate dependencies. One can run apps in wine, access a shell via cygwin or use virtualization. This might provide another alternative. i.e. the full power of Linux but the ability to run Office and test web applications in IE. The ability to run a linux server and Windows desktop on the same machine. A phone developer that can emulate an ARM phone using the ARM CPU (no CPU translation required)
Re:Dell does a terrible job of advertising it! (Score:4, Interesting)
1% of users run Linux
10% of users know that "Linux is something other than Windows"
89% of users don't know what Linux is at all.
So saying "It runs Linux" it's 1% advertisement, 10% confusion (since it ALSO runs Windows) and 89% unneeded technical details.
Not saying "It runs Linux", on the other hand, is 1% wtf?, 99% unnoticed, and 100% safe from legal or commercial point of view.
Or, putting my worn tinfoil hat on, it might be a requirement from MS to not say "It runs Linux" to get their nice OEM discounts.
Parent