Barence writes "Since writing about the success he's had with powerline networking, a number of readers emailed PC Pro's Paul Ockendon to castigate him for recommending these products, such as HomePlug. They were all amateur radio enthusiasts, claiming the products affect their hobby in much the same way that urban lighting affects amateur astronomers, but rather than causing light pollution they claim powerline networking causes radio pollution in the HF band (otherwise known as shortwave). Paul's follow-up feature, 'Does powerline networking nuke radio hams?' documents his investigation into these claims, which found evidence to support both sides of an intriguing debate."
This is just about the most ignorant, one-sided article I've ever read. It amounts to "Maybe it causes, problems, but HAM guys can cause problems, and oh yeah, they're dinosaurs, so fuck 'em."
I wonder what this worthless piece of shit will be saying when some natural disaster hits, all the lines are out, but because he and other shitheads basically wiped out the HAM community to get their pr0n, instead of dedicated volunteers firing up their diesel generators to help co-ordinate rescue and relief efforts,
Did you read the part of the article where the author advocates checking with neighbors before using the Powerline stuff to make sure there are no interference problems? That doesn't strike me as particularly one-sided.
I did, and you me gave a license saying that I may operate my toys. Furthermore my transmitters, if operated correctly, may cause your unlicensed devices interference which you must accept. You however may not interfere with my toys. 73 DE K2TY SK
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Thursday August 13 2009, @08:16PM (#29060647)
Well - they have. It's called "Federal Regulations" and the "FCC". If you look at your gear, you'll notice it's certified as a "Part 15" device. Part of that certification says: "may not cause interference and must accept interference, including interference that causes undesirable operation". Hams are licensed - part 15 are not. In the official 'pecking order' - you loose.
So long as the ham is following the rules, regulations and operating to good engineering practices, any help you get from him in minimizing interference issues is out of the goodness of his own heart. Not because of the law. The law says it's your problem and the ham has no obligation to fix it. It's all on you.
But, this is off topic here and I'll leave it to you to educate yourself on how things really work.
Ham's are pretty much self policing. The people that you get the most problem from are CB operators who have poorly tuned boosters.
I totally agree 1000%. I recall one person who lived across the street from me had a CB in his house. We could always tell when he talked on the radio because our toaster would start talking. We never had problems with hams, who also lived near us, though.
Back then I wanted to get my license but I had trouble with Morse Code.
1. Guy writes an article about a product.
2. Guy gets feedback, some of it far less than civil, stating that he was being irresponsible in his product recommendations.
3. Guy, rather than dismissing the issue as no doubt many would, actually does some research and writes a follow up.
I hardly think that this qualifies as "just about the most ignorant, one-sided article" on this topic, at least among those that you've read. This guy isn't a government agency or an academic group tasked with doing research into public safety concerns so it isn't his job to launch a comprehensive study into the issue.
I get that there seem to be some credible concerns, but you aren't going to win anyone over by making hyperbolic claims about anyone that fails to agree with you. Posting "ignorant, one-sided" insult laden posts on Slashdot isn't exactly helping your cause.
At the moment, sure; but if interference has been the rule for long enough, most hams will presumably have given up, mothballed their stuff, died off, not taken up the hobby because "what's the point?", and so forth...
The number of people willing to maintain ham gear and skills waiting for the day it'll be useful is, presumably, a fair bit smaller than the number willing to pursue ham day to day as a hobby.
Do you really think they'll throw away all their equipment? If you had a ham radio lying around you haven't used for 10 years and the machines take over, I'm sure you'll dust it off.
I don't suspect that the most serious hams who have already taken up the hobby will(unless they move, and don't have the space, or the SO starts leaning on them), even if only for nostalgia's sake; but I strongly suspect that, if all you can do is listen to static and wait for emergencies, you aren't going to see much in the way of new blood, and the blood you have isn't going to last forever. And, yeah, I suspect that some of the more casual players are going to say "fuck it" and ebay their gear. Not all, certainly; but numbers count if you want a communications network to work under adverse conditions.
Exactly. Just yesterday, I was considering taking up the hobby; it's something I've thought about in the past, but never gotten around to doing. If it's looking like I won't even be able to try it out and talk to other ham operators unless/until there is a major emergency, that's certainly not going to encourage me to spend a significant amount of time, space, and money getting into the hobby (if you could even call it that under such circumstances).
When you're in a disaster, you're not really interested in getting help from other people who are also in the affected area, who are also without power.
You want help from people *outside* the affected area. And if this goes forward, they won't be able to hear you. Which means there's no reason to keep the radios in the first place.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Thursday August 13 2009, @09:08PM (#29061035)
When you're in a disaster, you're not really interested in getting help from other people who are also in the affected area, who are also without power.
You want help from people *outside* the affected area. And if this goes forward, they won't be able to hear you. Which means there's no reason to keep the radios in the first place.
That's as wrong as it could be.
It's for this reason that hams, at least in the US and Canada, and likely other places, stage what's called Field Day every year. They gather in groups and operate under what are essentially emergency conditions. There is some operation from commercial power, but that may be sporadically available even in a disaster. It may not be right there at your house, but if it's available anywhere nearby, you can gather up all your mobile gear and go to the firehouse, police station or hospital where you're likely to have generators kicked in. The radio gear local authorities have (as shown on 9/11) is often not inter-operable. To this day, despite all the FEMA talk. A huge number of hams are already trained and certified to do this and they have regular drills. If you read the history of the Amateur Radio Service, its original mission was to have a ready reserve of trained, competent communicators in case they were needed for the war effort. They were needed and were deployed with amazing speed.
Any time your town has one of those realistic hurricane, earthquake or flood drills, you can bet there are hams among the first responders, specifically because they know that phone lines go down and cell towers either lose power or get overloaded.
Aside from operating on commercial power, Field Day is mostly based on self-provided power. Hams use generators, solar power, batteries and any number of other power sources. Yes, some even make use of small generators powered by someone on what looks like a stationary exercise bike. It may come as a surprise that a low-power (less than five watts) radio can be an amazingly effective communications tool in the hands of a trained, experienced operator.
Note also that little, if any, of this communications capability is funded by the government (another way of saying tax dollars out of your pocket). It's largely individually self-funded by individual hams or by radio clubs to which they belong. Many hams also maintain and constantly verify operation of gear collected in "go bags" -- duffels or cases containing everything necessary to travel a hundred miles and set up a fully operating station within a very short time. One friend in particular has everything needed for a station stored in well under two cubic feet in his (small) car trunk at all times. I've seen him open the trunk and get on the air within fifteen minutes. If AC is available, he plugs in his power supply. If not, he has fittings on his battery that he can clip into in seconds.
Aside from that, many hams also have constantly-operating mobile units in their personal vehicles. I listen to a group five mornings a week where half the operators are mobile. And yes, they are exempt from (at least) California laws mandating hands-free cellphone operation. Like pilots, ambulance drivers, police, etc., they are trained to drive and communicate safely at the same time.
As a ham myself for almost 20 years, I understand what you're saying, but all the VHF/UHF in the world isn't going to help in a regional disaster where the scope of the 'dead zone' is beyond VHF/UHF range... like Katrina, or a tsunami, or anything else that affects a large geographic region (like maybe when the Yellowstone caldera finally blows).
At some point, you have to get help from outside the affected area - and probably the only way to contact them (outside of satellite) is going to be HF. If the people who have power CAN'T HEAR YOU DUE TO LOCAL INTERFERENCE ON THEIR END, then what have you actually accomplished? Yes, you've done some local triage. You've probably gathered a list of needed supplies and ordered your 'need' list.
When you've done as much as you can inside the affected area, who are you going to ask for help now?
If we're keeping HAM around for a few thousand (at most?) true hobbyists, using the excuse that it's a disaster tool, then that's a false need to support an old and dying hobby, and it's preventing rolling out commercial BoPL services to support millions of americans with a cheaper and more stable communications system, and holding back an economy worth billions of dollars for some 50+ year old tech. How stupid is that?
So few people use HAM anymore, we could also just as easily slash the available HAM freequency swath down to a fraction of what it is assigned for, and put BoPL at the other end of the original range, accounting for harmonic frequency crossover, and simply by simplt FCC legislation completely end this debate once and for all...
There are 16660 HAM operators who hold active licenses in the state of Georgia alone, I'm one of them who is a member of a local ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) group. Are we the only communications in a time of emergency? No, but we are very effective and can be on the scene ready to go quicker than you'll get a comsat system into many rural areas. We don't just provide communications during emergencies we sometimes provide radio communications at large events where the local police may not have effective radio coverage.
HAM's are not necessarily opposed to BPL, we just want it done right. The standards that are being pushed allow for too much interference. BPL should be able to be configured to use a certain slice of the spectrum and not the wide band it uses now (not sure about BPL but I know the home adapters use 2-30 MHz) Would it hurt the FCC to insist that BPL narrow down the frequency range they use and keep it outside of the Amateur bands?
Say you are in New Orleans, and a big storm knocks out your power. You want to get a message to your mom in Chicago that you are OK (so she doesn't worry and have a stroke or something). So your friendly neighborhood Ham will fire up his rig on battery or generator, relay a message to another Ham in Huntsville, who picks up a phone and calls your mom in Chicago. Only problem is if BPL is deployed in Huntsville, that message ain't getting through to the Ham operator there. Or to any other Ham who's area has deployed spectrum polluting technologies.
Actually, it's fairly common to have international interference that prevents communication on the lower bands (160m/80m). So, yes, interference generated in China _can_ cause hams in the US to not be able to use that frequency range.
Fuck you dipshit. Hammies saved the day in many cases, both helping out with relaying official emergency communications and by relaying non emergence communications ("tell my wife I'm here and I'm safe with the kids").
And I would MUCH rather trust the organization of a relief effort to trained professionals -- like state, federal, and military emergency staff -- to a bunch of "volunteers."
And I would MUCH rather trust the organization of a relief effort to trained professionals -- like state, federal, and military emergency staff -- to a bunch of "volunteers."
Wow. I mean wow what a very ignorant statement.
Obviously you don't know that most first responders during a disaster are volunteers. I will just briefly mention how ineffective FEMA, the state of Louisiana, the Orleans parish, and the city of New Orleans were during the recovery efforts of Katrina. Thank God there were church groups, American Red Cross, Amateur Radio operators, and other voluntary relief agencies or the disaster could have been much worse.
Usually there are more falaties after the disaster strikes than during. Thankfully we have a community of volunteers willing to help mitigate the danger. May I add at their own expense and peril.
Search and rescue have sufficient VHF and UHF bands. We're talking about HF, which is for long range, which is a very different sort of disaster communication from search and rescue. One band won't do for this, because ionospheric weather varies throughout the day and over longer cycles, and thus the frequency that worked for long-range communication an hour ago might not work now. Thus, there are several ham bands. They are well-used and all of them in total are much narrower than a single TV channel!
Frequency planning is an area you would need to study further before you could make sensible statements about it. Sorry, and good luck if you do decide to look into it.
I grew up in a town called Boulder Creek. Our fire department was staffed entirely by volunteers, and I would trust them with my life.
I generally prefer that the people providing my health and emergency services do it because they are genuinely passionate about it. I believe passion produces better results than a sense of obligation.
I really don't understand this anti-Ham attitude. These guys have proven themselves time and time again to be an important asset. Katrina certainly is the most recent example, but these guys all over the place put their own money and time into this, but out of some short-term notion of profit, we're basically going to sell them up the river.
And to the dimwits who say "When the powers out, it won't be able problem", how do you test and maintain equipment when BPL is spewing RF all over the place? It's like having a computer without a power jack, but hoping that when they put the power in, no matter how long it takes, the equipment will just magically work.
As someone who is an EMT - agreed. "Real" HAMs, fine. But if I had a device that could be triggered to zap any "whacker" over his radio, the airwaves would be a much quieter, better, place.
As someone who served on the disaster committee of a regional American Red Cross chapter and worked along side two county EMA directors as well as the state EMA, I would politely disagree with you.
You will find a VHF and HF amateur radio station at most county EMA offices and the state EMA office. You will also find them at all three weather service offices that serves my state. Why? Because most amateur radio operators that volunteer to help us out are willing to attend a class on how we expected them to help us. They are courteous and professional, and most importantly they are already "out in the field" and FREE labor. The fact that they have the equipment capable of providing reliable long distance communications is a bonus.
I don't know how wealthy your local government is, but ours prefer to use the professional emergency responders to handle law enforcement, curfews, medical emergencies, and leave the "health and welfare" communications (which include status updates from shelters and staging areas) to the amateur radio operators. During a large scale disaster, the professional labor pool quickly becomes inadequate and we are always looking for trained volunteers in addition to the radio operators.
Amateur radio operators also help the national weather service by participating in SKYWARN. During the 90's they helped confirm weather warnings issued while nexrad (next generation radar) was being deploy. Today, they still serve a purpose by being the eyes and ears of the national weather service.
Point out that electromagnetism is "only a theory", get Rush and Bill O'RLY to talk up ionospheric HF propagation being "a bunch of liberal mumbo-jumbo", and sprinkle the internet with scary chain emails about how radio was "cooked up by some European egghead". In a year or two, congress will be terrified to legislate against broadband over power lines because their constituents are gibbering incomprehensibly at them about illegal Mexican radio immigration, how we need to teach the controversy about "Intelligent Electrons" and the creeping socialist death panels that are coming to euthanize their satellite dish!
Better yet, just start a rumor that Republicans are using Ham radio to organize opposition to nationalized health care and the Democrats will do everything they can to get rid of it. Of course, in that case they will claim that any debate is "un-American".
There are two different things that can be considered power-line networking. One is the kind where the powerline is used to provide internet to many homes all the way from a central location through intermediate power transformers. This, fortunately, is already obsolete, because it could not provide good enough bandwidth to pay for itself. It did interfere with many radio users, not just hams.
The other is within-home networking like Homeplug. ARRL dealt with early interference issues and has not reported any recent ones as far as I'm aware. But the very earliest models allowed us to hear your phone call on shortwave! Fortunately, people who owned those were found and warned, for the most part.
The problem was that the Bush administration was sold on BPL and put pressure on FCC. Dubwa made public statements in favor of it.
There are any number of FCC staffers who are well educated in RF. I've met some of them. The problem comes when the commissioners don't let them do their job.
"keeping the HF bands clear for low signal communication is a bit like keeping the rail tracks clear of fast express trains so that nostalgists can run steam trains over them."
The author's analogy belies the fatal flaw in his though process: HF communications may be older and slower than the internet, but the internet is highly unreliable and fails when communications are most critical. HF always works. HF is the ONLY completely reliable means of long-distance communication that humans have. To destroy mankind's sole means of completely reliable communication in favor of a system which fails when needed most is simply foolish. This isn't about amateur radio. It's merely incidental that most HF communications these days are by hams, and that hams handle disaster comms when the networks go down. These communications could be handled by any group of people, and the result would be the same: without a reliable HF infrastructure, humans screw themselves doubly when nature screws us.
There are other services in the HF band between 1.8 MHz and 50 MHz than just Ham operators and shortwave radio stations.
The spectrum is also used for aviation, particularly when commercial aircraft are over the ocean and out of line-of-sight to a shore station. Most ships at sea use HF radio for communications from ship to ship and for ship to shore communications. The military still uses HF communications for a great many systems, including the broadcast of EAM (emergency action messages).
Someone will say "so what, they are way up in the air or in the middle of the ocean" but they fail to realize that the shore based stations are subject to interference while trying to receive signals from aircraft and ships.
There are still radio navigation systems that operate in the HF bands, weather bouys in the ocean sending back data by HF and many other overlooked systems of lesser renown.
Having spent a significant amount of my professional life hunting down interference sources to communications systems I can say it is NOT a good idea to put a thousand low powerline network extenders across a city. There WILL be harmonic interference, intermodulation and an overall decrease in performance. Look at how badly screwed up the 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth and ZigBee are? The 2.4 and 5.8 GHz devices at least have the decency of being line-of-sight and range is limited by buildings. As soon as you attach something to the wiring system of your home you create something that is impossible to manage (resolving interference issues).
Give this one to the Hams and to those of us who still own and use shortwave radios.
Massive Earthquake hits Southern California. All communication, power, water infrastructure destroyed or damaged.
As you point out all the interference caused by the power lines would be gone, in that area.
What about the areas outside the zone that are the ones the people in the zone will be trying to talk to?
Every year a bunch of Ham radio people set up in a park in Berkeley, CA, and for three days they are off the grid running their equipment on solar panels, batteries, gas generator, exercise bikes with generators, whatever. The point is for them to show that they can maintain contact with the rest of the world without the infrastructure that will be knocked out in a disaster. And teach people about Ham radio to drum up new recruits.
After the tsunami in Indian ocean one of the only sources of news and communication was Ham operators in the area.
Power lines were never meant to carry RF energy. When they are, they radiate. Cable TV doesn't radiate. It doesn't radiate because it uses a proper transmission medium (Coax). If the power line folks want to distribute DATA, they should string the poles with fiber optic. Better yet, we the people should string it, and sell access to the content providers.. ala municipal fiber networks. They can work folks!
Here in Westchester, NY one of our local utilites tried a system in Briarcliff Manor, NY.
It totally wiped out any HF reception within 3 tenths of a mile. Your normal background static was replaced by a 30/+9 digital hash.
(For you non radio folks, and wi-fi does NOT count, that means the meter is pinned and you can't hear sh#&.) A broad rollout of BPL would mean that for the vast majority of radio amateurs, model railroading would be a better idea-sell you equipment to the illegal CB ops.
The systems cannot coexist. I'd be very afraid of BPL when the sunspot numbers are high, as you'd then get interference from BPL somewhere in the world-making all of HF useless. While HF is not where your magik cell phone or Blackberry live, and it is not currently in style, does not mean that it is the toxic waste dump of the RF spectrum.
Wi-Max, if the intere$ted partie$ involved could ever get their act together, would be a much better idea. BPL also wipes out CB, which is meaningless unless you are a trucker...or use anything trucks deliver.
Yeah, there's no better alternatives to using powerline networking. It's not like you can buy CAT6 at Home Depot, or anything.
Unlike the buggy whip people, Ham operators have constantly come up with new stuff, like figuring out how to make shortwaves go across an ocean. Powerline networking, OTOH, is a cheap stopgap solution that's better done by laying dedicated cable or setting aside radio frequencies for the task.
As much as I hate responding to flame-bait, I just have to mention that HF is still used for many real-world purposes. Here in Australia, it is used to educate kids in the outback, as well as for public safety communications. There are many more reasons to keep using HF, I can't see it dying any time soon.
Wake up. BPL is a crappy technology. It guarantees improper radiation because the power lines aren't shielded at the physical layer. Kill BPL now and demand what we all want: Fiber Optic.
You don't even know what is being talked about. "Homeplug" style LAN around your home via powerline. Unequivocally NOT Broadband over Power Line, internet access.
Funny, for those of us who are old, ham radio was the entry point into technology. Are you aware that there was a world before computers ? Indeed, my first real job had a realtime voice recognition system which could convert to text with few errors. You went to lunch and an hour later, when you returned (no calls during lunch..no cell phones) your letter was typed and ready for signature. We called it a secretary who could take shorthand.
In this era, technology was made up of discrete components, instead of "all in one chips". Some of us wondered what those components did. We learned that they all had a job and you could easily figure it out. Better yet, people often tossed items full of these components away. We called those "dead TV's" and they were full of FREE components, which re-jiggered, would allow you to talk to Europe with a wire in the backyard. Back when the per minute cost of an international phone call was more than the hourly wage, this was big stuff.
OK, today hams use four or five digital modes on HF, using little power and less bandwidth. Ham radios are smaller than a deck of cards. A 12 volt power source and small HF rig will fit in a small tool box, and can work the world on a 135 foot bit of wire.
As much as I love technology, I was there on 9-11 and the entire cell net in lower manhattan just crashed. Period. The internet is tissue paper-and the current web of communications is not very hard or resilient.
The old guy cranking 1500 watts in the basement with tubes is an old stereotype, and except for a few guys "keeping the AM flame alive" on 3885 mhz, gone.
The knowledge you obtain hamming does translate to computers-take it apart, try to make it work, modify it.
I wonder if the TFA author can discuss frequency hopping spread spectrum digital communicators....er, cell phones.
Like it or not, the "asshole with the fugly antenna" had it right.
If you look in the manual that came with your TV, you will see a little bit of small print talking about "FCC part 15 regulations". These essentially say that your TV cannot unintentionally radiate a signal that will disrupt any licensed radio service, and, more importantly, that your TV viewing IS NOT PROTECTED against interference by licensed radio services, as long as said stations are operating within their legal requirements (power output, spectral purity, etc.).
In short, you don't have a license to watch TV, but the ham DOES have a license to transmit up to 1500W of RF on various frequencies, whether it screws up your TV or not. If you don't like this, you are free to buy a better quality TV receiver, that incorporates all those "frivolous" features like proper shielding and filtering, that usually get "value engineered" out in order to sell the set for fewer bucks at WalMart.
BTW, you could be subject to FEDERAL charges for damaging a federally licensed radio transmitting station, , if your "asshole" neighbor wanted to press things. Generally, hams are more than willing to work with their neighbors to resolve interference issues (even if not legally required to), but when said complaints become abusive or threatening, we are fully within our rights to tell you to take your cheap Chinese TV set and stick it where the sun don't shine. And the FCC will back us up, every time.
For a wire to not be an efficient RF radiator, typically it has to be 1/4 wavelength or longer. For the freqencies we're talking about (up to 30MHz), 1/4 wavelength can be as short as 2.5 meters (since 28MHz is around 10 meters).
14 MHz is only 20 meters, so a piece of wire 5 meters long (or even a combination of wires that are segmented together through a panel) can become a radiator (aka transmitting antenna).
You can see where this is going. It's hard to get the frequency low enough where the typical wire
It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
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This is just about the most ignorant, one-sided article I've ever read. It amounts to "Maybe it causes, problems, but HAM guys can cause problems, and oh yeah, they're dinosaurs, so fuck 'em."
I wonder what this worthless piece of shit will be saying when some natural disaster hits, all the lines are out, but because he and other shitheads basically wiped out the HAM community to get their pr0n, instead of dedicated volunteers firing up their diesel generators to help co-ordinate rescue and relief efforts,
Big Props (Score:5, Insightful)
Props to the egghead who called me after Katrina with a message from my sister saying she was okay.
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I did, and you me gave a license saying that I may operate my toys. Furthermore my transmitters, if operated correctly, may cause your unlicensed devices interference which you must accept. You however may not interfere with my toys.
73
DE K2TY SK
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Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
So long as the ham is following the rules, regulations and operating to good engineering practices, any help you get from him in minimizing interference issues is out of the goodness of his own heart. Not because of the law. The law says it's your problem and the ham has no obligation to fix it. It's all on you.
But, this is off topic here and I'll leave it to you to educate yourself on how things really work.
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From what I have seen, (Score:4, Funny)
Ham's are pretty much self policing. The people that you get the most problem from are CB operators who have poorly tuned boosters.
I totally agree 1000%. I recall one person who lived across the street from me had a CB in his house. We could always tell when he talked on the radio because our toaster would start talking. We never had problems with hams, who also lived near us, though.
Back then I wanted to get my license but I had trouble with Morse Code.
Falcon
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Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Guy writes an article about a product.
2. Guy gets feedback, some of it far less than civil, stating that he was being irresponsible in his product recommendations.
3. Guy, rather than dismissing the issue as no doubt many would, actually does some research and writes a follow up.
I hardly think that this qualifies as "just about the most ignorant, one-sided article" on this topic, at least among those that you've read. This guy isn't a government agency or an academic group tasked with doing research into public safety concerns so it isn't his job to launch a comprehensive study into the issue.
I get that there seem to be some credible concerns, but you aren't going to win anyone over by making hyperbolic claims about anyone that fails to agree with you. Posting "ignorant, one-sided" insult laden posts on Slashdot isn't exactly helping your cause.
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Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
The number of people willing to maintain ham gear and skills waiting for the day it'll be useful is, presumably, a fair bit smaller than the number willing to pursue ham day to day as a hobby.
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When you're in a disaster, you're not really interested in getting help from other people who are also in the affected area, who are also without power.
You want help from people *outside* the affected area. And if this goes forward, they won't be able to hear you. Which means there's no reason to keep the radios in the first place.
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
When you're in a disaster, you're not really interested in getting help from other people who are also in the affected area, who are also without power.
You want help from people *outside* the affected area. And if this goes forward, they won't be able to hear you. Which means there's no reason to keep the radios in the first place.
That's as wrong as it could be.
It's for this reason that hams, at least in the US and Canada, and likely other places, stage what's called Field Day every year. They gather in groups and operate under what are essentially emergency conditions. There is some operation from commercial power, but that may be sporadically available even in a disaster. It may not be right there at your house, but if it's available anywhere nearby, you can gather up all your mobile gear and go to the firehouse, police station or hospital where you're likely to have generators kicked in. The radio gear local authorities have (as shown on 9/11) is often not inter-operable. To this day, despite all the FEMA talk. A huge number of hams are already trained and certified to do this and they have regular drills. If you read the history of the Amateur Radio Service, its original mission was to have a ready reserve of trained, competent communicators in case they were needed for the war effort. They were needed and were deployed with amazing speed.
Any time your town has one of those realistic hurricane, earthquake or flood drills, you can bet there are hams among the first responders, specifically because they know that phone lines go down and cell towers either lose power or get overloaded.
Aside from operating on commercial power, Field Day is mostly based on self-provided power. Hams use generators, solar power, batteries and any number of other power sources. Yes, some even make use of small generators powered by someone on what looks like a stationary exercise bike. It may come as a surprise that a low-power (less than five watts) radio can be an amazingly effective communications tool in the hands of a trained, experienced operator.
Note also that little, if any, of this communications capability is funded by the government (another way of saying tax dollars out of your pocket). It's largely individually self-funded by individual hams or by radio clubs to which they belong. Many hams also maintain and constantly verify operation of gear collected in "go bags" -- duffels or cases containing everything necessary to travel a hundred miles and set up a fully operating station within a very short time. One friend in particular has everything needed for a station stored in well under two cubic feet in his (small) car trunk at all times. I've seen him open the trunk and get on the air within fifteen minutes. If AC is available, he plugs in his power supply. If not, he has fittings on his battery that he can clip into in seconds.
Aside from that, many hams also have constantly-operating mobile units in their personal vehicles. I listen to a group five mornings a week where half the operators are mobile. And yes, they are exempt from (at least) California laws mandating hands-free cellphone operation. Like pilots, ambulance drivers, police, etc., they are trained to drive and communicate safely at the same time.
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Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
As a ham myself for almost 20 years, I understand what you're saying, but all the VHF/UHF in the world isn't going to help in a regional disaster where the scope of the 'dead zone' is beyond VHF/UHF range... like Katrina, or a tsunami, or anything else that affects a large geographic region (like maybe when the Yellowstone caldera finally blows).
At some point, you have to get help from outside the affected area - and probably the only way to contact them (outside of satellite) is going to be HF. If the people who have power CAN'T HEAR YOU DUE TO LOCAL INTERFERENCE ON THEIR END, then what have you actually accomplished? Yes, you've done some local triage. You've probably gathered a list of needed supplies and ordered your 'need' list.
When you've done as much as you can inside the affected area, who are you going to ask for help now?
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:4, Informative)
If we're keeping HAM around for a few thousand (at most?) true hobbyists, using the excuse that it's a disaster tool, then that's a false need to support an old and dying hobby, and it's preventing rolling out commercial BoPL services to support millions of americans with a cheaper and more stable communications system, and holding back an economy worth billions of dollars for some 50+ year old tech. How stupid is that?
So few people use HAM anymore, we could also just as easily slash the available HAM freequency swath down to a fraction of what it is assigned for, and put BoPL at the other end of the original range, accounting for harmonic frequency crossover, and simply by simplt FCC legislation completely end this debate once and for all...
There are 16660 HAM operators who hold active licenses in the state of Georgia alone, I'm one of them who is a member of a local ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) group. Are we the only communications in a time of emergency? No, but we are very effective and can be on the scene ready to go quicker than you'll get a comsat system into many rural areas. We don't just provide communications during emergencies we sometimes provide radio communications at large events where the local police may not have effective radio coverage.
HAM's are not necessarily opposed to BPL, we just want it done right. The standards that are being pushed allow for too much interference. BPL should be able to be configured to use a certain slice of the spectrum and not the wide band it uses now (not sure about BPL but I know the home adapters use 2-30 MHz) Would it hurt the FCC to insist that BPL narrow down the frequency range they use and keep it outside of the Amateur bands?
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:4, Insightful)
Say you are in New Orleans, and a big storm knocks out your power. You want to get a message to your mom in Chicago that you are OK (so she doesn't worry and have a stroke or something). So your friendly neighborhood Ham will fire up his rig on battery or generator, relay a message to another Ham in Huntsville, who picks up a phone and calls your mom in Chicago. Only problem is if BPL is deployed in Huntsville, that message ain't getting through to the Ham operator there. Or to any other Ham who's area has deployed spectrum polluting technologies.
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, it's fairly common to have international interference that prevents communication on the lower bands (160m/80m). So, yes, interference generated in China _can_ cause hams in the US to not be able to use that frequency range.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Fuck you dipshit.
Hammies saved the day in many cases, both helping out with relaying official emergency communications and by relaying non emergence communications ("tell my wife I'm here and I'm safe with the kids").
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
And I would MUCH rather trust the organization of a relief effort to trained professionals -- like state, federal, and military emergency staff -- to a bunch of "volunteers."
You are obviously not from New Orleans.
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
Wow. I mean wow what a very ignorant statement.
Obviously you don't know that most first responders during a disaster are volunteers. I will just briefly mention how ineffective FEMA, the state of Louisiana, the Orleans parish, and the city of New Orleans were during the recovery efforts of Katrina. Thank God there were church groups, American Red Cross, Amateur Radio operators, and other voluntary relief agencies or the disaster could have been much worse.
Usually there are more falaties after the disaster strikes than during. Thankfully we have a community of volunteers willing to help mitigate the danger. May I add at their own expense and peril.
Bill
Parent
Sorry, that doesn't make sense. (Score:5, Informative)
Frequency planning is an area you would need to study further before you could make sensible statements about it. Sorry, and good luck if you do decide to look into it.
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:4, Insightful)
I grew up in a town called Boulder Creek. Our fire department was staffed entirely by volunteers, and I would trust them with my life.
I generally prefer that the people providing my health and emergency services do it because they are genuinely passionate about it. I believe passion produces better results than a sense of obligation.
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't understand this anti-Ham attitude. These guys have proven themselves time and time again to be an important asset. Katrina certainly is the most recent example, but these guys all over the place put their own money and time into this, but out of some short-term notion of profit, we're basically going to sell them up the river.
And to the dimwits who say "When the powers out, it won't be able problem", how do you test and maintain equipment when BPL is spewing RF all over the place? It's like having a computer without a power jack, but hoping that when they put the power in, no matter how long it takes, the equipment will just magically work.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:5, Informative)
As someone who served on the disaster committee of a regional American Red Cross chapter and worked along side two county EMA directors as well as the state EMA, I would politely disagree with you.
You will find a VHF and HF amateur radio station at most county EMA offices and the state EMA office. You will also find them at all three weather service offices that serves my state. Why? Because most amateur radio operators that volunteer to help us out are willing to attend a class on how we expected them to help us. They are courteous and professional, and most importantly they are already "out in the field" and FREE labor. The fact that they have the equipment capable of providing reliable long distance communications is a bonus.
I don't know how wealthy your local government is, but ours prefer to use the professional emergency responders to handle law enforcement, curfews, medical emergencies, and leave the "health and welfare" communications (which include status updates from shelters and staging areas) to the amateur radio operators. During a large scale disaster, the professional labor pool quickly becomes inadequate and we are always looking for trained volunteers in addition to the radio operators.
Amateur radio operators also help the national weather service by participating in SKYWARN. During the 90's they helped confirm weather warnings issued while nexrad (next generation radar) was being deploy. Today, they still serve a purpose by being the eyes and ears of the national weather service.
Parent
Re:It isn't just a hobby (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Sheesh (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a debate. Doing this turns those power lines into big antennas. You can't debate the laws of physics.
Re:Sheesh (Score:4, Funny)
Point out that electromagnetism is "only a theory", get Rush and Bill O'RLY to talk up ionospheric HF propagation being "a bunch of liberal mumbo-jumbo", and sprinkle the internet with scary chain emails about how radio was "cooked up by some European egghead". In a year or two, congress will be terrified to legislate against broadband over power lines because their constituents are gibbering incomprehensibly at them about illegal Mexican radio immigration, how we need to teach the controversy about "Intelligent Electrons" and the creeping socialist death panels that are coming to euthanize their satellite dish!
Parent
Re:Sheesh (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
It's easy to get confused on this topic (Score:5, Insightful)
The other is within-home networking like Homeplug. ARRL dealt with early interference issues and has not reported any recent ones as far as I'm aware. But the very earliest models allowed us to hear your phone call on shortwave! Fortunately, people who owned those were found and warned, for the most part.
Bruce
Re:It's easy to get confused on this topic (Score:5, Insightful)
There are any number of FCC staffers who are well educated in RF. I've met some of them. The problem comes when the commissioners don't let them do their job.
Parent
Does powerline networking nuke radio hams (Score:5, Funny)
HF is the only communications safety net (Score:5, Insightful)
The author's analogy belies the fatal flaw in his though process: HF communications may be older and slower than the internet, but the internet is highly unreliable and fails when communications are most critical. HF always works. HF is the ONLY completely reliable means of long-distance communication that humans have. To destroy mankind's sole means of completely reliable communication in favor of a system which fails when needed most is simply foolish. This isn't about amateur radio. It's merely incidental that most HF communications these days are by hams, and that hams handle disaster comms when the networks go down. These communications could be handled by any group of people, and the result would be the same: without a reliable HF infrastructure, humans screw themselves doubly when nature screws us.
Re:HF Not Just for Hams (Score:5, Informative)
There are other services in the HF band between 1.8 MHz and 50 MHz than just Ham operators and shortwave radio stations.
The spectrum is also used for aviation, particularly when commercial aircraft are over the ocean and out of line-of-sight to a shore station. Most ships at sea use HF radio for communications from ship to ship and for ship to shore communications. The military still uses HF communications for a great many systems, including the broadcast of EAM (emergency action messages).
Someone will say "so what, they are way up in the air or in the middle of the ocean" but they fail to realize that the shore based stations are subject to interference while trying to receive signals from aircraft and ships.
There are still radio navigation systems that operate in the HF bands, weather bouys in the ocean sending back data by HF and many other overlooked systems of lesser renown.
Having spent a significant amount of my professional life hunting down interference sources to communications systems I can say it is NOT a good idea to put a thousand low powerline network extenders across a city. There WILL be harmonic interference, intermodulation and an overall decrease in performance. Look at how badly screwed up the 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth and ZigBee are? The 2.4 and 5.8 GHz devices at least have the decency of being line-of-sight and range is limited by buildings. As soon as you attach something to the wiring system of your home you create something that is impossible to manage (resolving interference issues).
Give this one to the Hams and to those of us who still own and use shortwave radios.
Parent
Re:HF is the only communications safety net (Score:4, Interesting)
We push shitty shitty light bulbs down your throat when there's not a damned thing wrong with the current ones.
I think my power bill disagrees with you on that point.
Parent
Re:HF is the only communications safety net (Score:4, Insightful)
Massive Earthquake hits Southern California. All communication, power, water infrastructure destroyed or damaged.
As you point out all the interference caused by the power lines would be gone, in that area.
What about the areas outside the zone that are the ones the people in the zone will be trying to talk to?
Every year a bunch of Ham radio people set up in a park in Berkeley, CA, and for three days they are off the grid running their equipment on solar panels, batteries, gas generator, exercise bikes with generators, whatever. The point is for them to show that they can maintain contact with the rest of the world without the infrastructure that will be knocked out in a disaster. And teach people about Ham radio to drum up new recruits.
After the tsunami in Indian ocean one of the only sources of news and communication was Ham operators in the area.
We need to keep those frequencies clear.
Parent
The issue is simple (Score:5, Insightful)
Power lines were never meant to carry RF energy. When they are, they radiate. Cable TV doesn't radiate. It doesn't radiate because it uses a proper transmission medium (Coax). If the power line folks want to distribute DATA, they should string the poles with fiber optic. Better yet, we the people should string it, and sell access to the content providers.. ala municipal fiber networks. They can work folks!
It is a real problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Funny)
It's an elitist hobby for techno-geeks
Funny, I feel the same way about World of Warcraft.
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, there's no better alternatives to using powerline networking. It's not like you can buy CAT6 at Home Depot, or anything.
Unlike the buggy whip people, Ham operators have constantly come up with new stuff, like figuring out how to make shortwaves go across an ocean. Powerline networking, OTOH, is a cheap stopgap solution that's better done by laying dedicated cable or setting aside radio frequencies for the task.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Insightful)
Wake up. BPL is a crappy technology. It guarantees improper radiation because the power lines aren't shielded at the physical layer. Kill BPL now and demand what we all want: Fiber Optic.
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Funny)
You dare to say this on
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Insightful)
My motto is: "Ham radio: No infrastructure required."
73 de w7com
Parent
Re:Who cares about HAM radio (Score:4, Informative)
Like it or not, the "asshole with the fugly antenna" had it right.
If you look in the manual that came with your TV, you will see a little bit of small print talking about "FCC part 15 regulations". These essentially say that your TV cannot unintentionally radiate a signal that will disrupt any licensed radio service, and, more importantly, that your TV viewing IS NOT PROTECTED against interference by licensed radio services, as long as said stations are operating within their legal requirements (power output, spectral purity, etc.).
In short, you don't have a license to watch TV, but the ham DOES have a license to transmit up to 1500W of RF on various frequencies, whether it screws up your TV or not. If you don't like this, you are free to buy a better quality TV receiver, that incorporates all those "frivolous" features like proper shielding and filtering, that usually get "value engineered" out in order to sell the set for fewer bucks at WalMart.
A good summary of FCC Part 15 available here:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/part15.html [arrl.org]
BTW, you could be subject to FEDERAL charges for damaging a federally licensed radio transmitting station, , if your "asshole" neighbor wanted to press things. Generally, hams are more than willing to work with their neighbors to resolve interference issues (even if not legally required to), but when said complaints become abusive or threatening, we are fully within our rights to tell you to take your cheap Chinese TV set and stick it where the sun don't shine. And the FCC will back us up, every time.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
For a wire to not be an efficient RF radiator, typically it has to be 1/4 wavelength or longer. For the freqencies we're talking about (up to 30MHz), 1/4 wavelength can be as short as 2.5 meters (since 28MHz is around 10 meters).
14 MHz is only 20 meters, so a piece of wire 5 meters long (or even a combination of wires that are segmented together through a panel) can become a radiator (aka transmitting antenna).
You can see where this is going. It's hard to get the frequency low enough where the typical wire