Palm Pre iTunes Syncing Back With WebOS 1.1 Update 396
suraj.sun points out CNet coverage of Palm's newest OS release, which restores the ability to synch with iTunes that iTunes 8.2.1 had broken. "The news was posted on Palm's blog where it listed the new features and enhancements of the software update and nonchalantly added at the end: 'Oh, and one more thing: Palm WebOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync. That's right — you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1).' Bold move, Palm. Bold move. It'll be interesting to see how Apple responds, and do you suppose the use of the phrase 'one more thing,' a phrase that Apple CEO Steve Jobs often uses to introduce a new product at the end of his keynotes, was intentional or am I just reading too much into this?"
Intentional (Score:5, Insightful)
Intentional.
cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?
Re:cat and mouse (Score:4, Insightful)
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy a palm if my itunes only worked intermittently or had no assured path forward. Sure one could perhaps use the old version of itunes while I waited for palm to fix it. But really that's not a strategy. I'm in that boat right now with my jailbroken iphone and did I not sort of enjoy the novelty of this cat and mouse game it would be a detraction not an attraction. I can't imagine most people want a phone that might not work some of the time. who needs to waste time like that?
I know this sounds crazy, but most of the time I use my phone as a communication device.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Why as a consumer would I be so dumb to buy music from itunes when I prefer palm over the iphone?
Re:cat and mouse (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:cat and mouse (Score:4, Interesting)
And if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software
Do you have any examples of a large and successful company wasting resources on development, by developing an exact clone of another company's product, rather than spending practically nothing to write a simple work-around?
I'd actually be curious to hear of some, because I would like to ridicule them for being so stupid.
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You don't have to clone iTunes. You just need an XML parser and file transfer tool. Let the user use iTunes to enjoy their music on their PC, and let the Palm software sync the library.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Informative)
You don't have to clone iTunes. You just need an XML parser and file transfer tool. Let the user use iTunes to enjoy their music on their PC, and let the Palm software sync the library.
Using Cocoa:
NSDictionary* theLibrary = [NSDictionary dictionaryWithContentsOfFile: [@"~/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music Library.xml" stringByExpandingTildeInPath]];
NSArray* thePlayLists = [theLibrary objectForKey: @"Playlists"];
NSDictionary* theTracks = [theLibrary objectForKey: @"Tracks"];
and you can go from there. To check the exact file structure, run "Property List Editor" and have a look at the contents of the file.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:4, Interesting)
well, actually, palm might embrace other existing software that is way, way more friendly towards them.
as amarok developers mentioned in akademy (http://www.kdenews.org/2009/07/16/business-free [kdenews.org]), amarok, as a crossplatform music manager/player, would be better suited for palm and would allow them to out-feature itunes with little resources.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:4, Informative)
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It is also important to note that when Apple sued MS, Xerox sued Apple. Xerox's suit was thrown out because they waited too long. However, the idea originated with Xerox, not with the Apple Macintosh. So the implication that MS stole the idea from Apple is false. MS got the idea for the GUI from the same place that Apple did--Xerox PARC.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You mean the Apple that paid Xerox for the rights AND then wrote from scratch the drawing routines (important parts that weren't even done on the Xerox PARC stuff, but the Apple people thought it was done)?
http://vectronicsappleworld.com/macintosh/creation.html [vectronicsappleworld.com]
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=On_Xerox,_Apple_and_Progress.txt [folklore.org]
Does it matter where the XML file is read? (Score:5, Interesting)
"d if Palm would grow a few braincells then they would write their own damn software that would read the XML file in the iTunes library"
This what the Pre already does. It is just that Palm decided to let iTunes copy the files over to the device first, instead of reading directly out of iTunes. Why should Apple care were the XML file is read? From a technical perspective it is basically the same. It saves the user from installing additional software. The is one of the nice things about the Pre, no need for any additional desktop software.
Part of this comment makes no sense. (Score:3, Insightful)
"instead of reading directly out of iTunes"
The music files in question are all stored, unencrypted on the file system referenced in the XML file. If you are already parsing the file and already have a means for copying files back and forth to the device (which the Pre does) why would you use iTunes in the first place? In addition the XML file is again, just a flat file which is unencrypted on the FS. There's absolutely no need to go through iTunes for this unless you were feeling either Lazy, Too Smart for
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Why as a consumer would I be so dumb as to buy anything Apple if they're only goal is to extract as much money from me as possible by forcing me to use only their products? If a company like Apple wants to specifically break compatibility with their products for third parties then I would choose not to use their products. Why is it that people jump on Microsoft when they trap consumers but applaud Apple for the same behavior? I'm not saying Apple doesn't make good products (I think they do), but the pric
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
2. With the exception of older DRM'ed tracks, you can put your music from iTunes on any device with any other software that supports said device and the proper file formats.
3. Palm is taking the lazyass way out and piggybacking on iTunes when anyone with three braincells could see this leapfrog coming a mile away. Yes, Apple is being dickish about this, but Palm damn well knew this would happen and they have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. The iTunes library is just an XML file. It would be trivial for Palm to make an app that reads said file and syncs without the need for iTunes to be running.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
1. You can use your iPod with other software.
Only because people are continually working on reverse-engineering Apple's attempts to lock-out other software from working with iPods. And you can't use a recent iPod Touch or iPhone with any software other than iTunes, because Apple have explicitly locked out the methods used by third-party clients to sync with earlier versions of the iPhone.
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I've used MediaMonkey under Vista to transfer music to my iPod Touch (though I haven't tried with the newest firmware).
It's still somewhat in the realm of "ugly hack," though: MediaMonkey uses parts of iTunes (which must also be installed) in order to accomplish this, but it worked fine in the boneheaded, practical sense of things in that it was transparent, easy, and I didn't have to suffer with seeing iTunes.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
The most obvious being, what if I chose to manually manage the music on my device? iTunes has no issue with this, but Palm would have to write their own GUI that would read the iTunes XML and then allow drag-n-drop sync.
Second, as a user, the last thing I need is another iTunes. I like the software. I know the software. It does its job well. If I want to buy a Pre, I as a consumer would just much rather use what I'm currently using.
Third, there are about a trillion edge cases with your suggestion. Like, multiple XML files. How will I know which XML file the user is using? I could have one in my All Users and one in my personal profile. iTunes has a simple option under the File menu to load a library. What would Palm do if they went gui-less and implemented your suggestion.
Finally, Palm isn't complaning that Apple updated their app. They just updated the Pre to match it. Why on Earth does it bother you so much? Apple are treating the iPod is hardly more than a hardware dongle for iTunes. Fine. But no reason to bunch-up your panties just because Palm circumvents their DRM. And don't kid yourself, that's exactly what a dongle is. DRM.
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First off: I own a Pre. I own a TX. I own some Palm stock. I don't want my company wasting their time doing anything but making what I bought from them better -- that's time better spent on implementing standards.
Again, that's the point. If you want to stick with iTunes, buy an iPhone. If you want a Palm, you're going to have to use Palm's software (which currently consists of the Pre using Apple's USB vendor ID in violation of the USB standard).
Sheesh. My wife has a Sansa music player. Do you mean I have to suddenly go and download software from Sansa, and not just use whatever the f-- I want to move the stuff over?
Apple sells Macs. and iTunes. And iPods. This is all about Apple trying to make you an "Apple person", regardless of
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Well...except in this case the Palm solution is a kludge, as it still requires iTunes - and furthermore doesn't survive an iTunes update without its own update. If that isn't the textbook definition of kludge, then I don't know what counts.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
This is probably more of a press battle than anything else and Palm is playing it pretty smart by staying in the public eye with this. Apple looks bad for deliberately locking them out and Palm looks technically savvy for coming up with another workaround.
Palm is just looking like a bunch of amateurs constantly having to fix their product. They can blame Apple all they want, but as a customer, you're going to come away with "this Palm product is a load of shit, it keeps breaking its connection to iTunes".
Unless Palm can make their product work consistently, it's going to be the loser here. It's just like if your Internet connection keeps going down. Even if it's not your ISP's fault, but the fault of some upstream provider, you're not going to just say, "well, it's not their fault, so I guess it's OK".
And Palm might be able to accomplish just that. Their update now reports itself, in violation of the USB standard, as being an Apple product. Very, very amateur, but sufficiently invisible to the user that, unless Apple is willing to force firmware updates on every iPod/iPhone owner, they may not be able to break Palm syncing without potentially breaking syncing with legitimate iPods.
Which makes me think that if Apple is unsuccessful in getting Palm to stop using it's vender ID, they will do just that, and add some form of encryption between the iPod and iTunes for authentication.
It's sad to see the once mighty Palm fall to being so pathetically amateur.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know... if I owned a Pre and every time I plugged it into my computer iTunes came up with an iPhone icon and every time I wanted to change which playlists got synced to my Pre I had to click on that icon and tell iTunes how I'd like to configure my "iPhone," and the whole thing broke periodically, my thought would be that I should have bought an iPhone instead of some knockoff.
On the other hand, if nice, well designed Palm Pre software came up and asked what I'd like on my Pre, I might think it was
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Funny)
And...receiving the Slashie award for Tortured Car Metaphor for 2009, it's QuantumRiff! (Crowd goes wild).
Well Bob, that was a fantastic example of a classic Tortured Car Metaphor. It was simply chock-full of inappropriate comparisons of business models, implications of conspiracy, and smug ignorance. One wonders how he will be able to follow up this incredible stupidity next year!
Re:Trivial? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, Palm could conceivably read the full iTunes XML, allow the user to create playlists, and sync from there, but that would involve more work for the user, instead of allowing them to easily sync already created playlists.
Playlists are included in the iTunes XML file.
Apple may not have a choice (Score:5, Insightful)
When tunes are stored on an ipod they are stored in a way that creates a speedbump to just trasnfering them off. basically the names are munged. Maybe they mess with the id3 tags--don't know. But apple has long been a proponent of speedbump DRM, that is drm that gets in your way enough that most users won't hassle with defeating it.
The real trick that apple accomplished was convincing the music companies that this was sufficient protection.
IN return apple probably has to make a reasonable effort to prevent cases where pod-to-pod transfers all proliferation of music. this would include nominal efforts to never have a legitimate channel for this.
they won't care if it's not perfect. But they probably are obligated to try.
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
You buy the Apple products because you LIKE the Apple products, and you LIKE the way they work together.
Now PalmPre starts syncing with iTunes, but doesn't sync right. That will look bad on Apple. Let's say the PalmPre somehow effs up your library. That will look bad on Apple. Sure, Apple can say 'we don't support the Pre' but if you're music library is hosed you're going to be mad at Apple.
Look at the Motorola Rokr, they licensed the technology from Apple to allow it to Sync. And Apple guaranteed it would work right and not screw anything up. I'm actually surprised (for better or worse) that Apple hasn't invoked the DCMA.
What Apple does NOT want to do is become Windows and have to support 80 billion solutions under the sun. Their strength is and always has been tight integration. Having to lose focus on that and suddenly deal with problems with every Tom, Dick, and Harry syncing with iTunes will delay new features and products.
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I'm actually surprised (for better or worse) that Apple hasn't invoked the DCMA.
The DMCA has an explicit exception for "interoperability". Check it out under paragraph (f), Reverse Engineering.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/dvd/1201.html [harvard.edu]
Re:cat and mouse (Score:5, Informative)
My Pre has worked continuously.
I just didn't update to iTunes 8.2.1. And besides, there are other ways to sync the Pre besides iTunes. It syncs the way all other non-Apple phones sync. It just throws in iTunes syncing as an extra bonus, which is nice.
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Maybe music playback works it did on my RAZR. But I doubt any apps will run. At least with the iPhone if I can't connect I can do more than play music. Anybody care to enlighten us further? I really am curious.
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Some apps are more useful than others (The web browser and YouTube applications are not very useful without some form of Internet connection because they don't cache anything) but apps like Calendar, Tasks, Memos, Photos, Music, SplashID, and Classic work just fine.
Even the email app
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Intentional.
How the hell is this "insightful"?!
But... for how long? (Score:4, Insightful)
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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More interesting quote from Palm (Score:5, Informative)
well, if anyone RTFA, there's an even more interesting quote from Palm:
Palm believes that openness and interoperability offer better experiences for users by allowing them the freedom to use the content they own without interference across devices and services, so on behalf of consumers, we have notified the USB Implementers Forum of what we believe is improper use of the Vendor ID number by another member.
Looks like Palm really is ready to turn this into a war.
Right idea, wrong mechanism (Score:3, Informative)
Palm could easily inter-operate with iTunes without pretending to be an iPod and abusing Apple's vendor ID. All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver.
"But wait!" the Apple-haters say. "Apple is an evil, anti-competitive wannabe-monopoly! There's no way it would allow such a thing! No way would Apple allow its precious iTunes on other devices! It wants to extend its iTunes dominance to the iPhone by locking out all competitors!"
I give you:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/productivity_too [apple.com]
facepalm (Score:5, Interesting)
Somebody mod this up. Palm is in the wrong here, but they're counting on capitalizing on anti-Apple sentiment since a lot of people are justifiably fed up with Apple. But Palm really needs to concentrate on making a better product -- if they want to compete with the iphone they've got to do more than piggy back on its success.
I really wanted to like the Palm Pre. I've still got my Treo, as beat to hell as it is, because I don't like the keyboard-less design of the iphone. (I text a lot and I like the Treo's keypad better than most). I have an ipod touch so I have most of the cool app features of the iphone without the AT+T contract. I went to the Sprint store to check out the Pre and I found it flimsy and slow, and its interface completely counterintuitive compared to the iphone. I was completely disappointed and now I might buy a Centro instead just because it's exactly what I now have except smaller and faster and it comes in green. So, yeah, I might opt for a feature set from like 1997 rather than the latest and greatest -- if that's happening in your product line, there's no way in hell you're gonna compete with the iphone.
It's perfect! (Score:5, Informative)
"All it has to do is create its own synchronization driver."
Why? All the driver would do is see the Pre and copy the files over.... kinda like it ALREADY DOES! This is because the "sync driver" is already inside the Pre. The Pre reads the iPod music library files directly. Palm already did the "hard work" of reading well documented files. They just chose to do it in a different place than the rest of the market. Why create a totally new way of storing music files, why you can just copy how someone already did it. The only reason the other devices need a driver is because they don't know how to read the library files directly.
This gives the best experience to the user. No additional software to install.
Re:Right idea, wrong mechanism (Score:4, Insightful)
but why as customer should I have to install that extra stuff when it Palm can offer out-of-the-box interoperability with iTunes?
Palm didn't abuse any vendor id. The were really clear (in round one) that this was a palm device. Thy used the vendor id only where it was a 'magic number' that was required to get interoperability.
Re:More interesting quote from Palm (Score:4, Informative)
Apple did all the engineering, R&D, and human interface work for iTunes. (Ok, other than what they bought in the beginning). Now Pre is trying to piggy back on this.
Interoperability with competitors' hardware is generally protected, at least in the US. See Coleco and other companies producing Atari 2600-compatible hardware, various companies producing unlicensed software for the NES, Sega Genesis, PS2, etc that had to use similar trickery to what Palm is doing.
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Indeed, in fact, from my understanding of things (IANAL) the DMCA specifically includes exemptions for interoperability purposes..
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You're forced to DOWNLOAD it through iTunes. Nothing is forcing you to USE it through iTunes.
The files are sitting there on the hard drive plain as day. Now that they have no DRM on them you can do what ever you want.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:ITunes-exclusive_releases [wikipedia.org]
What a huge and extensive list. /yawn
I used iTunes as my music organizer and I've never bought a single song from the iTMS.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Open iTunes. Make sure you have your main library open. Create a new folder on your desktop. Open that new folder. Go back into iTunes and hit [cmd|ctrl]-A and then [cmd|ctrl]-C. Go to the new folder that you opened. Hit [cmd|ctrl]-V. When it is done copying you can have whatever program or device you want manage your music for you. (iTunes lock in is sooooooooooooo harsh!)
What the pre is doing is making use of iTunes' management capabilities so that that palm didn't have to much about with coming up with t
Screw that, it's MY computer (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll use it however I like. If I want to use iTunes with a home built Internet Rice Cooker/MP3 Player, I will. Boo fucking hoo for Apple, where do they get off trying to tell me what I will and will not do with my computer, software, and other hardware? You masochistic, submissive Apple fanboys may get off on being dominated by your Apple-daddy but the rest of us don't swing that way.
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goddamnit. replying to remove my mod of "offtopic," which was a mistake. I was trying to click "interesting." Now somebody mod me funny.
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Standards are standards for a reason. Subverting the standard for anticompetitive reasons is wrong. Period.
Besides... who wants to install yet another damn program on their machine? I hate how each widget I get has some shitty driver it needs to have to get working with Windows, with some shitty software that never works. My Canon HF100? The video management software for it is abysmal. Palm is actually serving consumers by allowing them
Huh. (Score:3, Insightful)
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I just updated my Pre too. Scares me though. While Apple is selling DRM free music, dost it really stop them from their software only syncing up to properly signed iPods? I mean I like my iPod, but if its going to be a device that needs a secure encrypted channel to transfer file for me to just use normally, I am not sure I would want to use an iPod again.
DVD Jon started some software that is like iTunes, but open, and made for any device. It looks pretty cool, though I haven't tried it yet.
it's called DoubleTwist, look it up.
-Taylor
Typical Apple strategy (Score:2)
I doubt if Apple expects to be able to keep Palm out on a long-term basis. Apple's strategy of protection seems to be not so much to try to create an impregnable barrier, but rather to introduce inconveniences for those who use their products in an "unapproved" way. So if you get a Palm Pre, you'll have to check the web before you update your iTunes to make sure that Apple hasn't disabled Pre sync, and then wait for Palm to get around to fixing it.
USB Vendor ID (Score:5, Informative)
And because the world doesn't always make sense, Palm filed a complaint with the USB Implementors Forum, stating Apple is abusing the vendor ID (according to http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090723/you-can-almost-hear-the-shrieks-of-outrage-in-cupertino-cant-you/ [allthingsd.com] ).
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Interesting. What sort of teeth does the USB IF have?
I mean, the complaint is obviously going to fail, as I see it. If Apple wants to use their vendor ID to identify their own USB products so that iTunes doesn't work with anything else, that's within their right. Even if Palm thinks it's a dick move by Apple, I can't see anything actually prohibiting them from doing it.
Re:USB Vendor ID (Score:4, Informative)
First off, I don't like Apple. They sell high-priced fancy style-over-substance gadgets, IMHO. Now that we've got that taken care of...
I didn't see anything on the form stating that you can't use your vendor ID to identify your products, while it did say that using unauthorized vendor IDs is forbidden.
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I think Palm's complaint to the USB IF isn't intended to get Apple to stop. I think Palm knows that the USB IF has no teeth. However, at the same time, they also want to put on record why they're breaking the guidelines by using Apple's USB vendor ID.
That way they put Apple in a position where it's harder for them to take the high ground because Palm's complaint is their way of going on record that Apple is violating the purpose and spirit of the USB spec.
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If this pisses off Apple enough, I could see them pushing an update for older iPods to change the way they are recognised by iTunes, maybe using a more complicated method that will onl
Re:USB Vendor ID (Score:4, Informative)
It's a strange thing to attribute such an intention on the USB vendor ID, I wonder if there's any documentation of that...
I own an x-keys [piengineering.com]. Now, when I plug in the X-Keys, my Mac is completely unable to make any use of it, because it doesn't map the keystrokes of the xkeys to any actions. The OS is absolutely receiving the key events through the HID driver, I've seen them in the IO explorer. Is Apple intentionally crippling my x-keys, or rather putting Pi Engineering at a competitive disadvantage because they don't provide software to map the HID events from my X-Keys to software events, while at the same time they DO provide software that allows people to map events from Apple's own gear, like the Mighty Mouse? Is Pi Engineering being "locked-out" of the Mac keyboard market because they have to ship a helper application along with their key arrays?
On the other end of things, it's not so much the interoperability as much as it is the branding involved. When you plug a Pre into iTunes with this voodoo working, it looks like an iPod, and iTunes says "iPod" when it's talking about the Pre. That's a trademark, and it implies (wrongly) that Apple created or sanctioned the functioning of the Pre, when in fact it makes iTunes do a bunch of weird things -- like make two iPod tabs appear in the preferences window, and other oddities. iTunes isn't really built to talk to a Pre this way, and Apple isn't really under any obligation to make it work this way. They've gone and made the library data readable through XML, so vendors can read the library wtihout nettling with iTunes's execution state.
All I can say is, if I wrote a program that wrote data to an open file format, and someone insisted on writing a special bit of code that patched my program and made it do stuff I didn't write it to do, and I was the one who started getting the support calls about it, I'd be sorta pissed.
Watch out (Score:2, Funny)
and so it begins (Score:5, Interesting)
Now announcing iTunes Update Month!
Software update will have a new update for iTunes every 4-6 days, with an ever more entertaining list of "bugfixes and improvements", none of which will mention anything about palm.
I remember them doing this awhile back for a plugin for itunes that would add a second ipod to your list on the left, that you could drag and drop FROM. That spawned three iTunes updates in two weeks. People that diff'd the updates found basically all they were doing was adjusting their plugin acceptance code. Finally on the third update, they gave up on trying to filter it by behavior, and just plain banned the name of the plugin. It was at this point the author basically said ok I'm done, they're targeting me personally and that's not a war I'm going to win.
Re:and so it begins (Score:5, Interesting)
Or... he could have open-sourced and became immortal
Apple's response: (Score:2, Funny)
This means iWar!
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... to Palm's Pre emptive strike
New Palm Fan (Score:2)
I haven't been a big fan of Palm for many years now, but I'm starting to become a fan again.
I think it is a combination of the battle with Apple, which I hope they are able to win, and I think the woman in their commercials is amazingly hot. :)
This is some uber-clever marketing by Palm. (Score:5, Insightful)
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You're spot on.
I think Palm's executives are douchebags, but they're brilliant douchebags.
Relax (Score:2, Insightful)
I've got that syncing feeling again (Score:4, Interesting)
Jobs: You synced my flagship product!
Palm are begging for a visit from the fuckup fairy (Score:3, Insightful)
1. There are defined APIs Apple provides to allow third party software to interact with iTunes, and do everything Palm needs.
2. Palm is better at sync software than Apple *anyway*.
Doing it this way is just begging for a visit from the fuckup fairy. Plus, I want Hotsync back. And a pony.
Remember, Folks (Score:3, Funny)
"It's not done 'till Palm won't run!"
Stupid to Block Pre (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Lost battle (Score:5, Insightful)
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Very true, though one expects software updates at a more frequent pace than firmware updates so one would expect that until one side or the other throws in the towel, it'll probably work less often rather than more often -- unless people who want this feature just don't update iTunes.
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Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.
Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.
Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.
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Yeah, Palm just has to make the Pre look like an iPod to iTunes. Eventually Apple may run out of things to use to differentiate the Pre from a "real" iPod without breaking real iPods.
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Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods.
Do you know this for a fact? If the security is tight and Palm is only squeaking through by finding the equivalent of buffer overflows or undocumented functions, I think Apple could very well win this one.
Not that I'm necessarily taking Apple's side here. It's just that Palm seems to have stumbled upon a particularly stupid and capricious business plan that counts on Apple falling asleep on the job. This back-and-forth only has to happen a few times before potential buyers will get scared away.
Apple hasn't been able to protect its own iPhone from jailbreakers, what makes you think they can secure iTunes any better?
And on a more direct note, if palm needs to they could probably go so far as to completely emulate an old iPod - they do have the guy who made them working for them now - though that may be illegal, or at least lawsuit bait. Not that Palm seems worried.
More than anything I just love that this whole scenario is happening - someone is finally challenging Apple on their own turf! I'm all f
Re:Lost battle (Score:4, Informative)
I don't think you understand what it is that Palm is doing here, if they were doing what you described (cracking the security of iTunes) that would be at best questionable, I for one would be completely against that kind of behavior. All that Palm is doing is changing the Vendor ID on their phone to the Vendor ID used by iPods. Basically, iTunes says "Hey, who are you?" and the Pre says "I am definately, definately, an iPod".
Unless Apple adds a new requirement to sync, there's little they can do to detect if the iPod is actually a Pre, and if they add a new requirement they'll be breaking backward compatibility with all the iPods out there that don't have the requirement implemented.
Re:Lost battle (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync [precentral.net]
That's a bit shady, and for a group so concerned with open standards like USB, I would imagine more Slashdotters would find that practice questionable.
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Re:Lost battle (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, actually, they're telling them that the Pre is a device made by Apple:
http://www.precentral.net/how-palm-re-enabled-itunes-sync [precentral.net]
That's a bit shady,
No, it really isn't. [wikipedia.org]
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By breaking the USB vendor ID Palm is risking the bricking of Pres whenever Apple tries to do more than just a file sync.
Just how, do you imagine, would iTunes engage the Pre's firmware update system?
The Pre does NOT manage its firmware through iTunes. There is ZERO risk to a Pre's firmware from interfacing with the iTunes application.
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Theres only so much though that Apple can do short of killing compatibility with older iPods. Eventually Apple will just have to give up.
Well yes and no. first it means that the functionality palm can offer may not always be able to exceed that of the old iphones. Suppose for example while simple tunes transfer may be possibel by emulating the old ipod, suppose that new digital ipods or ones with camera would be more recognizable by itunes and so itunes would refuse to transfer over video or voice memos from an old ipod which is not supposed to have those capabilities. SO you can only get so far pretending to be an old ipod.
second, if t
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if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes
I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)
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if this is to become a game then apple could turn the tables. Have itunes interrogate the other features the palm exposes
I smell an "iTunes compatibility mode"... all Palm-specific features disabled so iTunes still can't tell the difference. ;)
Okay then let's say itunes just waits for the one time you plug it in before turning on compatibility mode. itunes then pushes over 1000 songs that are fingerprinted in a special way. Maybe they are all car alarms and babies crying. or just diminished audio quality. or maybe nothing youo can tell at all. But then the next time you try to update even in compatibility mode, itunes recognizes the fingerprint and intentionally malfunctions. it will be enought to drive you batty if the malfunction is cleve
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This is slashdot.org! The people here love these kinds of hacks. They love giving a finger to the 800 pound gorilla in the market. Palm did one of the most simple things to do, they changed their USB ID. Can they help it if iTunes just goes ahead and copies all the files over to their device?
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Palm is just being stupid. They have a lot more to lose from pissed off customers than Apple does. Palm, just make your own goddamned sync app like you should have in the first place. Yes, Apple is being a bunch of asses, but who didn't see that coming from a mile awa
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How is Palm not trying to force Apple into making iTunes SO restrictive about syncing that Palm can sue Apple for anti-competitive behavior, eventually forcing iTunes to be actively open.
I say that Palm is doing the exact opposite of trying to avoid a lawsuit, but their intention is to be on the 'right' end of it. It's brilliant if it works.
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Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.
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Remember that updates to itunes annoys people.
BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade. I find your lack of faith in the reality distortion field to be disturbing.
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Apple would actualy have to introduce honest-to-goodness new desirable features to get these people to consider moving forward, and what new desirable feature would be easier to implment than Pre support?
I don't think Apple can win this. I think what they are mostly afraid of is not the interop with iTunes.. its being forced to maintain that interop later on, when people come to expect it.
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BS. Apple could label it "PREVENTS HACKERS!" and people would flock to the upgrade.
..even the "hackers"? I think that if you're using a Pre, you're not into the whole reality distortion thing in the first place.
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Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.
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Sure, Apple could release iTunes 8.2.2 a week from now, but who's going to update to it? Most people don't bother to update their software when patches are released semi-monthly, let alone weekly.
Yeah, especially if you own a Pre! There is really no harm in keeping a slightly older version of itunes, they never start locking you out of anything till you're a few releases back. And although most techy Pre owners probably waited to upgrade itunes the last time anyway, and are therefore unharmed, this release will have even the non-techy owners waiting to update, after having been bitten the first time. I would bet that most people apple screwed with the last update aren't going to do it again, so Palm
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Since it will be downloaded, it might indeed get queued by many people... However, I'm pretty sure you mean 'cue'.
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Queue iTunes 8.2.2 in about 3 days. Seriously, does Palm really think they can win this? On the other hand, I respect that they're not rolling over and dying, as they did when they replaced Graffiti with Jot and wrecked handwriting recognition for their long-time users.
Why in the name of Cthulhu would anyone use iTunes to update a non iPod. Hell, with tools like SharePod you don't even need to use iTunes. Seriously, why? iTunes is the single most bloated piece of canine feces that exists ... and they dare to call it software. Can't Palm write a plugin for MediaMonkey or some other media player and just use that?
Using iTunes is a similar experience to that of eating one's own teeth.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As held in every case about this issue, copyright and trademark law are not violated when using a competitors name for the purposes of interoperability.