Consumers May Find Smart Appliances a Dumb Idea 347
theodp writes "As GE readies appliances that communicate with smart meters in the hope of taking advantage of cheaper electricity rates, CNet asks a big question: Are consumers ready for the smart grid? Right now, most utilities only offer a flat rate, not time-of-use pricing, so the example of a drier that reacts to a 'price signal' about peak rates by keeping one's clothes wet until a more affordable time is pretty much a fantasy. And longer-term, a big question is whether consumers will want to deal with the hassle of optimizing household appliance energy usage themselves, or be willing to relinquish monitoring and control to utility companies — with a concomitant loss of privacy. After all, losing one's copy of 1984 is one thing — losing one's lights and refrigerator is another thing altogether."
Dumb (Score:4, Insightful)
Smart appliances are a truly dumb idea. What things in your home consume the most power?
Tier 1
Refrigerator.
Stove/Oven/Microwave.
Heating/Cooling.
Dishwasher.
Dryer.
Tier 2
Lighting
Entertainment system.
Hair dryer etc.
Can you wait for off-peak power for any of those? Of those things, what can really be delayed?
The fridge? Not if you dont want you food to spoil.
Stove/Oven. Not if you want to have dinner.
Heating/Cooling. Not if you want to be in your house while you are awake.
Dishwasher. Yes. That one.
Dryer. Maybe, if you are okay with wet clothes sitting around (mold). Not if you have more than one load.
Lighting Not if you want to be in your house while you are awake.
Entertainment system. Not if you want to actually use it.
Hair dryer? No, that's not how it works.
So there was what? Just the dishwasher?
This whole idea sounds like some dumb-ass' PhD topic. Fascinating in theory, doesn't work in reality.
Why do the appliances need to be smart? (Score:2, Insightful)
My house is on a peak/off-peak schedule, with the peak rate being based on highest demand during the peak hours, which are at specific hours of the day, with a set summer and a set winter (rest of the year) schedule. We have a demand control computer that limits the peak demand during on-peak hours. It monitors the rate of consumption, and it has direct control of the water heater, and X-10 control of the heating and air-conditioning to limit the peak amount used, but only during on-peak periods. We do our own time-based control of the rest of the appliances, like we don't do laundry or run the dishwasher during peak hours, etc. It doesn't require smart appliances.
Re:While I am all for green energy, save the Plane (Score:2, Insightful)
This "Smart Grid" has a way of spying on a home owners (or renters) privacy as well as shutting off devices so that they cannot use them until off-peak hours.
Exactly. I don't want the power company, or the government, controlling when and how I use appliances in my house. MY house, MY appliances. STAY OUT. Smart-meter my ass.
nano nano (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Dumb (Score:5, Insightful)
We do most of the laundry on the weekends when we can throw a load in, do things around the house, and then come back to it later. Between my wife and I, we do 4-5 average loads a weekend.
We tend to take showers early morning or late evening, so that puts the hot water usage off a little bit. Sharing the shower doesn't help since we tend to run it longer when we do.
My pool pumps are on timers and only run from midnight to 4am. I've found the 6 and 12 hour for winter/summer recommendations for most pools are wrong for me, I just kept cutting mine back further and further until I found out I only need 4 hours a night, no matter whether it was summer or winter. Oh
Maybe we don't need smart appliances
Oh
Too much smart, not enough appliance. (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, sure, it's awesome that when my local power company rolls out peak and off-peak rates that my appliances can tell me when it's more expensive to use them, but I want them to be good appliances first. I want them to be efficient in the first place so I don't have to manage my usage by the hour. I already do enough to keep my appliance usage to a minimum to save money; I don't want to also manage when that minimum occurs.
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:2, Insightful)
How many people plan for when exactly they will drive?
Look at it another way: I'm at home during the day and I have an electric car. I have two choices: use my appliances at peak rate or tell my car to serve up some of the power it stored last night off-peak. Which do I do? It *always* makes economical sense to take that power back from my car before dipping into the grid. Doing so means there is less on-peak demand for everyone else, so prices should come down. If it saves lots of money people will find a nice way to do it, and car manufacturers will sell high-capacity cars boasting their money saving capabilities for your home. It could be as simple as a display in my home that says "Your car has 100 miles worth of energy stored, select how many miles to spend on peak power saving instead". If you foolishly use too much energy and suddenly need to use the car you buy it back at peak rate and learn your lesson for next time.
I know I will select a hybrid car (gas generator with electric drive) for two reasons: range and not having to rely on having a power outlet everywhere I go.
Sure, and hybrids will be around for a long time for those reasons. But a plus is that this could cause power points wherever you go to become a reality.
This gets really complicated to do in practice.
Agreed based on current battery technology, but if we see a big rise in capacity and reduced charge time that could change. It also depends if you serve your own home, in which case the financial benefits are clear, or the grid generally, in which case they are more muddy.
Re:It is a dumb idea (Score:5, Insightful)
"able to tell your home that you are going on vacation. Your hot water heater can chill down and take a break, and your air conditioner can work less hard (keep the house at 76 degrees F, say, instead of 70 (24 Celsius instead of 21)."
When I was a kid and we were going to go on vacation my mother would turn down the thermostat (you had to leave the furnace on in the winter so the pipes didn't freeze. In the summer the furnace was off anyway, pilot light out), and unplug the TV etc. so a surge couldn't hurt anything. Dad would turn off the hot water heater (which meant when you got home you had to wait for hot water). No need for an "energy manager." Have people gotten that lazy?
PS: why do you need your air conditioner on at all when you're on vacation?
It's not about money savings, it's about rationing (Score:4, Insightful)
What does the tribune article habe to do with this (Score:3, Insightful)
The last link in the summary, regarding the student who was without power for two weeks has absolutely nothing to do with smart appliances or smart grids. Why is it even included? Perhaps an article detailing the rolling brownouts that some areas have had to deal with during times when demand is greater than supply would be more appropriate (and would be something that a smart grid could address in a better way).
Oh wait, a balanced story detailing the pros and cons of an issue is probably way too much to ask for.
It's a pity, really... (Score:5, Insightful)
Fact is, the farther from base load you go, the more the marginal unit of electricity costs. No getting around that, barring amazing advances in generation or storage technology. Because of that, there are clear efficiencies to be had if load that can be moved off-peak is moved off peak. Unfortunately, the "smart grid/appliance" setups that involve utilities remote controlling your stuff are invasive, complex, and downright paternalistic.
Far better would be a simple price signalling mechanism. The electricity company's meter would report, every period(could be simple "off peak"/"on peak" could be each hour, could be each minute, could be each second, doesn't matter in principle) the cost of a unit of electricity consumed during that period and the value of a unit of electricity sent back to the grid during that period. The reporting would be via a standardized protocol on a standardized header on the unit and/or over the powerline and/or a standard wireless mechanism(again, details aren't wildly important).
That reporting would be all. If I wished to adjust my usage to save money, I could purchase appliances capable of interpreting the standard electricity price information(either built in to the appliance, or in the form of a smart breaker box, that could turn on and off power to specific outlets). I could then program the device or devices to respond as I wished to price signals("AC: NEVER go above 80c, go to 68 if price is less than 10cents, go to 70 if price is between 10 and 15 cents" "Dishwasher: do not run if price is greater than 10 cents, unless override button is pressed").
This scheme would have three major virtues: First, it would avoid the invasiveness of having somebody else control your home systems. Second, it would allow each individual to set his own priorities on the value of various uses of electricity, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. Third, it would allow unconstrained innovation/optimization by device manufacturers in what options to provide and how granular to be.
For instance, a computer could be set to manipulate its own ACPI settings according to the current price level, wifi devices could trade off between throughput, range, and power in response, AC could adjust target temperature, etc. Devices that store or generate electricity on site would know their own costs of operation, and only operate when economically viable. If a utility, for whatever reason, was facing capacity problems, they could simply raise the price of a unit sent back to the grid, to encourage local generators to start up.
Obviously, serious configuration of the details in each device would be substantially beyond the interests(and quite possibly the capacity) of a lot of people. For them, manufacturers could simply provide a suitably small set of sane default options(probably the same ones that a one-size-fits-all policy would apply across the board). For complex programmable devices like computers and game consoles, interested organizations could even distribute suggested settings packages over the internet.
Re:While I am all for green energy, save the Plane (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm always interested by the "Government has too much power" meme - its an effective mask for the rise in (multi/trans national) corporate power. I wonder who has the greater influence over government these days? Those that vote, or those that "pay" contributions? Artificial barriers to entry (e.g. copyright extension) that do not improve the common good are a case in point.
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:3, Insightful)
For water heaters, there are better ones that monitor their own usage and attempt to predict utilization. I had one like this, which worked very well. I'm not 100% sure on the timing, but it went something like this. It was able to recognize there is hot water usage for a 4 hour window around 7am and 5pm. If it saw water wasn't being consumed, it would then reconfigure itself. For example, if you went on vacation and forgot to tell it, it would use less power. There was also an manual switch so you could tell it you were going on vacation. That would be useful for the winter, so the water heater wouldn't freeze, but I wouldn't be wasting money heating it much above freezing. :)
You can actually have some flex room with a fridge too. If the power is cheaper, and the usage lower (like, less opening and closing), you could let the cycles run less frequently. Say you're running 38F to 42F degrees normally, you could run 36F to 44F through peak time.
I don't like the whole idea though. I see subsidized appliances. Buy a new refrigerator for $1 and pay their easy $20/mo ez-payment plan for the next 10 years. Failure to pay for service will result in termination of the service immediately. What good is a fridge that won't run. I'm the DMCA or some future law will be used to prevent the reverse engineering of any components. Circumventing the remote control parts to make it "just work" would be a criminal offense.
There are good reasons for the whole smart power grid to go into effect. I'm not just worried, I'm positive, that it will be abused by corporations.
Just wait until the hacks come though. Just imagine a gas stove turning on with it's pilot light off, and then the pilot igniting. How about an electric stove and oven going to full power for no reason. I hope nothing was left on top of it. If every dumb item in a house could be controlled, I'm sure there would be plenty of bad things that could happen.
Re:While I am all for green energy, save the Plane (Score:3, Insightful)
No slippery slope.
We were always at war with Eastasia.
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Localized energy storage is not going to provide the 100% guaranteed power we require in the US. There is simply no tolerance for unreliability. Localized power returned to the grid is useful if the grid can store the power, so that the power is not wasted, otherwise it is simply an incentive for people to generate power, just like the peak power rates.
Such a policy of peak pricing may be temporary, but it may last long enough to change behavior. There are many tasks that can be done overnight if the automation is put in place. This will require investment, and one way to spur the investment is to make energy expensive.
Also, such pricing does have an effect on conservative users. When I was younger, I went to great length to keep my power usage below a threshold, because below that threshold I was changed very little. As soon I crossed the threshold I was charged a lot more. It encouraged me to watch my usage.
The reason people dislike this kind of plan is because they don't want to give anything up. They want to have low fuel consumption, but they want it in a military transport. They want low electric bills buy they want a big screen TV. They want to save money, but can't because they spend it on bottled water and energy drinks. The reality is that we need better management of power. It has to visible, not hidden so that people think there are no negative consequences. If that means lowering the energy cost for those that even out their power usage and increasing costs for those who don't, well that is one tool we have in the free market.
Re:It is a dumb idea (Score:2, Insightful)
No shit. Forget this 'smart appliance' crap, and work on actually charging less for power at night, which, you know, is sorta a requirement for this to even exist at all.
Once you do that, publish a schedule, and people will start using non-peak hours for that, manually.
Then, and only then, do you invent a way to send said schedule over the power lines, both in a complicated 'rate by every hour' version and a simple-to-understand 'we are now a lower rate/hour warning for that ending/it ended' signal that can be parsed with a two dollar IC. (And while we're at it, why don't we send the current time, too, so appliances that parse the schedule actually understand it.)
And in addition to 'one hour delay' button, dishwashers and dryers will start including a 'until non-peak hour' button, and then the complicated energy saving can start, which fridges, water heater, and other things using excess energy before peak. And while we're talking to appliances, we should be able to locally talk to them, like you said, and say 'We're on vacation. Stop doing everything you can.' and have water heaters cut off and fridges operate on the assumption that no one will open the door and stuff like that.
Re:It is a dumb idea (Score:3, Insightful)
In the Netherlands at least, and I think many parts of Europe, we have had two tier pricing for very long. Lower cost of electricity at night. And we didn't need smart appliances, just a timer clock here or there!
Clothes washing: just switch it on when you go to sleep. Not many families have more than one load a day. And if you must well then that second load during the day, can't have it all.
Dishwasher: meh. Don't need.
Water heater for shower: get one with a 70-90l reservoir, and have it heat up to 90 C or so overnight. A properly isolated one and you have piping hot water all day long at night-rate electricity.
It was as simple as that. No need for Internet connection or so, just a double meter in the closet downstairs and some common sense.
Selfish/ignorant nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
I love the entirely ignorant and self-absorbed "I'm alright Jack" and "Keep the Gubmint Outta My Fridge" and "I want the right to burn dioxins on my own lawn" comments.
Goodness.
For a start there's at least two sorts of appliance smartness that are useful.
1) For example, load-shifting use until there is low demand on the gird. Sometimes that electricity can be practically free (or even negative price) and reduces infrastructure costs (hardware built to cope with a smaller peak) and reduces use of often dirty and expensive 'peaking' plant. You don't have to subscribe to Climate Change to see this as a good idea. And yes, for the average family home the main candidates are the dishwasher and the washing machine. Just avoiding running your dishwasher right after dinner (until you go to bed or optimally ~3am) in the UK right now saves circa 100g CO2 emissions each time for no inconvenience at all usually:
http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-UK-grid-CO2-intensity-variations.html [earth.org.uk]
http://www.earth.org.uk/_gridCarbonIntensityGB.html [earth.org.uk]
And indeed right now since the highs and the lows are at fairly fixed times then a simple timer will do a good job: not much Big Brother smartness there.
But as more intermittent power such as wind comes on line, those 'excess power available' moments will be less predictable. A really smart dishwasher lets you run it just when you want to, but if you're not in a hurry you could set it for "make sure it's done by the morning, but try to pick the time for minimum costs/emissions". I already do this in my house.
2) Balancing the grid cycle by cycle is a separate issue. In the UK fridge/freezers alone correspond to a base load of ~2GW. If a 'smart' fridge notes that the power frequency has dropped because the grid is struggling then it can postpone restarting the compressor so as to stay within normal temperature limits but coast a little while on its store of 'cool'. It might also suspend any auto-defrost for example. That helps keep the house lights on (yours and everybody else's) without spoiling your butter or denying you any rights at all. Last year we had a major nuke trip out in the UK and 500,000 people across the UK were 'load shed' and lost supply entirely. If all the fridges had been smart they may well have stayed on line without anyone noticing.
http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-dynamic-demand-value.html [earth.org.uk]
Hyperventilating about "communists" turning off the lights and freezer is so childish I find again /. posts failing to meet the IQ levels that I assumed were necessary to type. %-P
This is not to deny that such a mechanism can be royally f**ked up by individual governments and utilities, but going purple in the face while ignoring that the alternatives may well include more blackouts or higher prices, even ignoring climate-change issues, doesn't help.
Note: I already do some of this at home. I still haven't voted communist (though they may have had a local candidate here for the last elections).
Rgds
Damon
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:3, Insightful)
Tankless water heaters are almost useless when it comes to saving energy. The simple truth of the matter is that the standby losses of a modern foam insulated tank are actually quite small. Tankless water heaters also do the opposite of what needs to be done to reduce peak loading.
Water heaters are good candidates for smart appliances. Water heaters tend to run for an hour or so after hot water has been used, say for a shower or to clean a load of laundry. They come on after a morning shower and use energy during the peak period. A very simple way to reduce peak use for water heaters is to add a second water heater (it can be smaller) that feeds the primary water heater and set the primary water heater a few degrees cooler than the secondary heater. The secondary heater is set to run only during off-peak hours. The net result -- you will always have plenty of hot water, and you will greatly reduce peak loading.
Re:While I am all for green energy, save the Plane (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't want the power company, or the government, controlling when and how I use appliances in my house. MY house, MY appliances. STAY OUT. Smart-meter my ass.
Oh, you're a Libertarian with far too much money? The only way in which government is getting involved is to get variable rate electrical power charging exposed to consumers. Big industrial users have had this sort of thing for many decades (in fact, I don't think they've ever had flat-rate charging). Given that there will be differential rates available, do you want to take advantage of them to run some of your appliances at cheaper times of the day, or do you feel that you love your power company so much that you want to give them all your money (and have their love children too, it sounds like)? All this smart metering stuff (apart from the parts owned by the electricity company, like the meter itself) does is make it easier for you to find out the current rate, and for suitably-adapted appliances to take advantage if told to.
All that government has done is change the basic rules to ones that are more free-market oriented. It's up to you to make that work in your favor. (The alternative is that they ratchet up the flat-rate electricity price hard, which I can guarantee you'll hate.)
Bah. Sometimes reading here I think we've got a situation like this. There's a guy standing naked on a rail line and there's a freight train approaching at full speed. A cop on the sidelines is shouting at them to get the fuck off the rail line because the train is coming, but the guy is refusing because that would mean that the government is telling him what to do. The fact that he's going to get turned into mincemeat in a few seconds is of absolutely no importance to him by comparison with showing that he's not one of the sheeple, despite the fact that the governmental action is just common sense and clearly in his best interests by any objective measure. Such is the sheer power of anti-governmental stupidity.
Still, maybe your idiotic attitudes will at least mean that you subsidize everyone else's electricity. I like the idea of taxing utter foolishness like that.
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless the on demand heater is gas, in which case the energy savings will be significant.
Re:How long will peak rates be around for? (Score:3, Insightful)
In Western Canada, many firms provide electric outlets in their parking lots - not to recharge batteries, but for block heaters in winter, so people's cars will start after 8 hours in the office. I'm sure they could work out some accomodation for 3rd shifters (and since off-peak industrial rates are cheaper in Canada than off-peak residential rates, those 3rd shifters might even save money.)
But don't let a little creative thinking get in the way of your anti-electric bias.