5000487
story
Comments: 281 +- Hardware: New Lithium-Air Battery Delivers 10 Times the Energy Density on Friday June 26 2009, @02:37PM
Posted
by
ScuttleMonkey
on Friday June 26 2009, @02:37PM
from the under-water-to-stay-above-water dept.
from the under-water-to-stay-above-water dept.
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicpower.gif); width:59px; height:66px;
power
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topictech2.gif); width:60px; height:80px;
technology
Al writes "A company called PolyPlus has developed lithium metal-air batteries that have 10 times the energy density of regular lithium-ion batteries. The anode is made up entirely of lithium metal, and the surrounding air acts as the cathode, making the batteries incredibly energy dense. Previous efforts to make lithium metal batteries have been stymied by the sensitivity of lithium to water in the air. The new batteries use a sophisticated membrane to protect the lithium anode and PolyPlus has even created a version that works underwater, by drawing oxygen through the membrane. Lithium metal-air batteries could be light-weight power sources for demand for plug-in hybrid vehicles and consumer electronics; IBM also recently announced that it would develop lithium metal-air batteries for the energy grid and for transportation."
Related Stories
Submission: Company's Lithium-Air Batteries Work Underwater by Anonymous Coward
It is sweet to let the mind unbend on occasion.
-- Quintus Horatius Flaccus (Horace)
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2010 Geeknet, Inc.
Same old story... (Score:5, Insightful)
"it expects these batteries to be on the market within a few years"
Just like those ultra efficient, cheap, solar panels we've been promised 'next year' each year for the last decade.
Re:Same old story... (Score:5, Interesting)
Your pessimism is misplaced. Don't you remember cell phones from the early 90s? Those giant bricks? When the then top-of-the-line NiMH battery was introduced in 1989, it boasted 45Wh/kg energy density. Now we have li-ions widely available at 200Wh/kg (4.5x the energy density) and 10x the power density.
For any given tech advance, the odds of it making it to market are low. But there are so many tech advances, many of which you never hear about, that the tech continues to advance at a good clip.
That said, I'm not a really big fan of any X-air batteries. They tend to be inefficient, low power, expensive, and have poor cycle life. There are literally dozens of li-ion advances working toward commercialization that can each 1.5 to 8x the density of either the anode or cathode, so regular li-ion still looks to have a lot of life in it. Also, I'm particularly interested in the recent advancements in lithium-sulfur. Practical lithium sulfur cells are 3-4x the energy density of current li-ion and are efficient and with reasonable power (excepting the unimpressive "stabilized" ones), but they tend to have very short cycle lifes. The University of Waterloo came up with a really interesting approach of wicking the sulfur into the pores of mesoporous carbon, baking it off the outside, and then functionalizing the carbon surface with PEG to repel the hydrophobic sulfur and keep it trapped in the pores so it can't migrate across the membrane and precipitate useless lithium polysulfates (the normal means of capacity loss in LiS). Their results were pretty astounding. In one experiment, they deliberately used an electrolyte known for dissolving polysulfates, thus facilitating capacity loss -- and compared their electrode with a traditional one. In a couple dozen cycles, the traditional electrode lost something like 96% of its capacity. Theirs lost only about a quarter of its capacity.
Parent
Re:Same old story... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't be silly! Functionalizing is a perfectly cromulent word.
Parent
Re:Same old story... (Score:4, Informative)
It's a word used in chemistry, surface science and materials engineering. In that context, it means "add a functional group." http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/functionalize [wiktionary.org]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Funny is a good mod rating for that. It's always funny when someone makes fun of someone for their use of words without taking the time to look up what the words actually mean. Do a google search for "functionalize" and "carbon". You'll find 563,000 hits. Most of the prominent ones are peer-reviewed scientific papers. Functionalization, in a chemistry context, means to add a functional group [wikipedia.org] to a compound.
Re:Same old story... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks for expanding my vocabulary.
Parent
Re:Same old story... (Score:5, Insightful)
Come now, mods, that wasn't a troll. It's hard for people to admit mistakes in a discussion (I myself fall into that same trap from time to time). Don't discourage it by calling them trolls for doing so.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
False again!
First off, "li-cell" != "li-ion". A "li-cell" is a "lithium battery", which is a type of primary cell, and which predates lithium-ion to the market. Secondly, you're absolutely wrong in your assertion. Even traditional cobalt cathodes alone have gone from ~1200mAh in 1994 to almost 3000mAh in 2008 [batteriesdigest.com]. In the past year and a half alone, li-ion batteries on the market have gone from 160Wh/kg to 200Wh/kg. For God's sake, research a topic before you start spouting off about it.
Have you seriously n
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Price isn't an issue anymore, the break even point is just a few years.
Not according to the article on Slashdot just a few days ago. You'll looking at break even in 14-20 years for any entire system which can take your house off the grid. And that assumes a very sunny location.
Re:Same old story... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Same old story... (Score:4, Funny)
Dominating in "Guitar Hero" does not make you a musician. Just like knowing the Star Wars prequels sucked doesn't make you a filmmaker. Or, having the AOL screen name "SugarBabeeGrl710" doesn't make you girl.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There are 9v rechargables:
http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/ipower-9-volt-500mah-lithium-polymer-rechargeable-batteriesbr9v-lithium-rechargeablebrone-9v-rechargeable-battery-p-548.html?SP_id=&osCsid=iu4reqeohaenijtqokk2mgo5j6 [thomasdistributing.com]
Or if you want NIMH:
http://thomasdistributing.com/shop/maha-9v-300-mah-nimh-rechargeable-battery-p-503.html?SP_id=&osCsid=iu4reqeohaenijtqokk2mgo5j6 [thomasdistributing.com]
I've switched out all of my AAA and AA devices in the house to low discharge NIMH batteries. The only thing I can't use my rechar
Primary or secondary? (Score:2)
I suspect primary.
Deja Vu (Score:3, Informative)
Completely unlike the Lithium Air battery on /. a month ago: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/21/1237231 [slashdot.org]
They have a design for a battery...so what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Rechargeables in "early development" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The article uses the term "Single Use"
Lithium, a limited natural resource? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Lithium, a limited natural resource? (Score:5, Informative)
"Like many other producers of crude oil, Bolivia finds itself in a frustrating situation regarding its processing and the refining of its raw materials. It finds company in the history of the incumbent automobile fuel source, petroleum. There is a great deal that the Bolivians could learn from the Saudis regarding what they should do with its lithium reserves and how to extract them. To achieve this, Bolivia will want to strive to find the answer to a number of questions with which the Saudis have dealt over the years, and continues to deal with, such as how wealth will be distributed if the commodity is nationalized, how to maintain a balance between maximum production and environmental stability, and what will stabilize the economy once the commodity is exhausted."
http://www.coha.org/2009/02/lucky-bolivia-and-the-future-of-lithium-in-the-world-economy/
Parent
Vaporware we can believe in! (Score:3, Funny)
*groan* (yknow, being made of air and whatnot)
Energy Density Fears (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of people are raising concerns about the risk associated with increasing the energy density of the battery.
I would like to point out that it's difficult to directly compare the risks of two fuel sources without knowing how quickly the energy can be released, and under what conditions it can happen.
For instance, I enjoy working with motorcycles, which typically carry 2 major energy sources: A battery, which supplies starting and auxiliary power, and gasoline, which supplies primary power (including the power required to charge the battery.)
The gasoline in the tank has a far greater energy density and far higher energy potential than the battery, but of the two, the battery poses the greatest risk of injury and explosion.
The gasoline can certainly burn, but will only explode under very specific conditions. The conditions required to set it burning are also very easily removed. In fact, I'm far more concerned about the chemical damaged caused by exposing fuel to skin than I am about the risk of fire or explosion.
On the other hand, I work around the battery with wrenches that are typically grounded against the frame while in use. Even with a disconnected battery, I've had cases (while working on a car) where the wrench contacts the positive terminal of the disconnected battery, creating very heavy gauge short circuit between the terminals. The resulting release of energy will cut through metal and cause severe burns. Likewise, if overdrawn, the battery can release hydrogen which can either vent and ignite, or build internal pressure causing the battery to explode.
An interesting example of a substance that is explosive, has a high energy density, and is safe is C4, which can actually be used to cook food if burned, but will not explode without a blasting cap.
So... Are these batteries a risk? Perhaps. We should look into that. But it's best not to cry about the sky falling without first investigating the matter.
Almost 1/2 the energy density of gas (Score:4, Interesting)
Air pollution? (Score:4, Interesting)
Any time chemicals interact with air, it strikes me there is the potential for air pollution.
Is that the case here? I mean, in theory the chemistry may not result in pollution, but in the real world it only takes a fraction of a percent of the chemistry to take an alternate reactive path to result in unexpected or unwanted impurities...
Underwater use? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't use these Batteries in Space!!!! (Score:4, Funny)
I needed some batteries for the life support systems on my spacesuit, so i went and bought some of these new fangled Lithium-Air Batteries and they don't work worth a crap. They worked fine in the airlock but as soon as I stepped out on my space walk I was gasping for air as my life support system inexplicably shutdown.
.
These Batteries are Horrible, just Horrible!!!! I have to trust my life to batteries for supplying me with Oxygen and keeping my temperature constant.
.
Two space gloved thumbs down!
.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
(From the TFA)
The safety concern is the main problem here.
Got a hammer? (Score:5, Funny)
Anything that breaks the membrane and allows moisture to come into contact with the anode will start a nice fire. Or you can microwave them. Or blend them.
First they came for boxcutters, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for hammers, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for screwdrivers, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for microwaves, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for blenders, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for can-openers, but I wasn't a terr'rist, so I didn't say anything.
So here I sit starving, unable to open this frigging can of food, and even if I could, I'd have to eat it cold because I can't nuke it and without tools I can't fix the furnace. Now if only I could find a rock and a lithium battery, I'd be able to cook it!
Parent
I know you meant this as a joke, but.... (Score:3, Informative)
In the recent case of United States v. Irizarry, a man in New York was arrested and charged with a felony weapons violation (under the switchblade laws) for having a Home Depot "Husky" brand folding utility knife clipped to his pocket.
In related news, the Department of Homeland Security has just issued a new ruling defining all knives that can be opened with one hand by way of thumbstud, ridge or hole -- which means most pocket knives made in the past 20 years -- as "switchblades" whether they have a spring
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Explosions (Score:5, Informative)
Or if you even looked at the article, you would see a demo of it running underwater.
Parent
Re:Explosions (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I believe the summary is the first time I've ever seen "sensitivity" used as a synonym for "tendency to explode violently."
Based on some spectacular chemistry class demonstrations of lithium/water interaction, I'm going with significantly less safe than Li-ion.
Re:Explosions (Score:5, Funny)
My former girlfriend was a very sensitive person.
It never occurred to me before, but now that you mention it, I think this is exactly what she meant by the term.
Parent
Re:Explosions (Score:5, Informative)
Diesel fuel has a very high energy density and very little explosive potential. The danger comes not from the contained energy, but how fast that energy can be released.
Parent
Free and "Fun" Experiment (Score:3, Interesting)
I was warned that car batteries can explode if you short-circuit them in this way.
Re:Free and "Fun" Experiment (Score:5, Informative)
I was warned that car batteries can explode if you short-circuit them in this way.
All batteries have internal resistance which naturally limits the amount of current, and therefore power, they can put out. They are unlikely to "explode" in the same way a firecracker explodes... at least from the chemistry alone.
What can happen, though, is the high power draw form shorting a battery will cause a LOT of heat generation. The stuff inside the battery expands with this heat, maybe even vaporizes, and if the battery casing is relatively inflexible it could burst. Bursting is not *quite* the same as exploding.
BUT! Lithium is nasty stuff. If a lithium battery bursts, exposing the lithium directly to the air, then you might get some real pyrotechnics going.
=Smidge=
Parent
Re:Free and "Fun" Experiment (Score:4, Interesting)
Nope. Not unless you have a Class-D extinguisher made for putting out metal-based fires like magnesium, lithium, sodium, etc.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Unless you are referring to cars fueled by propane, you have been watching too many movies. Neither gasoline nor diesel fuel are explosive in their liquid state.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Wait, I'll just go get my metal compressor and my neutron cannon out of the basement, and call the lithium hydride delivery service. Hmm, should I also order a pizza and a blow-job?
Re:Explosions (Score:4, Interesting)
That's simply not true. TNT is less energy dense than aluminum. Which one would you rather be standing next to when a blasting cap is fired on them?
In this case, the energy density of the lithium has nothing to do with how fast it can react. The rate the lithium can burn is exactly the same as the rate in which it can burn in much less energy dense lithium primary cells. And furthermore, while this may be a fundamental problem in "small" devices like cell phones and laptops, large devices, such as electric car battery packs, have ample room for fire prevention, isolation, suppression, and venting systems.
Parent
Re:Explosions (Score:5, Informative)
If you put aluminum in a dust form and then aerosol it, it'll be much worse;
Irrelevant. That *block of aluminum* has more energy density than TNT. *So does aerosolized aluminum*, but so does the block. And it has more energy than gasoline per kilogram, too.
Just because something has high energy density does *not* mean it has a realistic way to release that energy rapidly. And the amount of energy contained within the chemicals that make up a battery (releasable by burning) are often way more than the amount of electrical energy stored in the battery, so saying that because the electricity stored went up 10fold means somehow that the chemical energy that would be released in a fire went up 10fold is just wrong.
If I added a resistor to the inside of a battery so as to waste most of the power of the battery, causing the energy density of the cell to decrease tenfold, would it somehow suddenly become ten times less flammable? If I took the resistor away, would it suddenly become ten times more flammable? Don't act like that's far-fetched, because that's very similar to how a lot of battery improvements work -- lowering the internal resistance, making sure that more of the material within can take part in the desired electricity-storage reactions, and so forth.
There are some incredibly flammable low-energy density batteries, and incredibly fire-resistant high energy density batteries out there. Heck, the Zebra battery has almost the energy density of the lower-end li-ions, and it operates at temperatures of hundreds of degrees in *typical usage*. The amount of electricity stored is simply not inherently correlated with the energy density.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I know what you mean but you could also say burning down your house isn't worth having a stove. You just need to know that the battery can be dangerous and you should handle it accordingly.
Re:Double edged sword (Score:5, Informative)
No, it isn't.
Lithium-Ion batteries are dangerous because of very low internal resistance. ie. They can dump a large amount of current in a very short time. This is completely independent of energy density, and future designs could well have higher energy density with less danger of thermal runaway.
Parent
Re:Double edged sword (Score:4, Interesting)
My laptop constantly overheats, I mistreak the battery to hell, and still it keeps working.
And millions upon millions of other people have had the same results.
I've only got one piece of advice for you: stop being such a pussy. You're slowing the rest of us down.
Parent
Actually, 1800's batteries were Better! (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, from the very edge of the 1800's. Development didn't complete until 1901.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_battery [wikipedia.org]
Nickel-Iron (NiFe) batteries don't appreciably degrade from discharge. There is some wear, but they can last for 50 years if you change the electrolyte. Power and current densities are low, but they are ideal for photovoltaic installations. Battery wear from deep discharge is one of the biggest economic factors of solar power cost.
You can buy them, but currently only from manufacturers in India and China.
Parent
Re:YEAH RIGHT (Score:4, Informative)
The only people who make this argument are those who haven't paid attention to battery energy density over time. If you don't know what I'm talking about, compare your cell phone with one from the early 90s, or your laptop battery. Battery energy density has increased 4.5x in the past 20 years, and power density 10x. And it only seems to be speeding up.
Yes, there was a long time (the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of this century) where battery technology was mostly stagnated. Then the consumer electronics industry came into its own, and people actually started putting serious money into battery research. And our modern understanding of chemistry and nanoscale structures certainly doesn't hurt.
Or a halogen flashlight could SHINE for that long. But no, they're always still the same sucky thing as in the 1800s
Um, do you realize where the term "flashlight" comes from? Flashlights in the 1800s (actually, the very end of the 1800s) were these big, massive things with huge, heavy batteries -- and despite this, they had so little energy density that you couldn't leave them on all the time. You had to "flash" them when you wanted to see something.
Parent
Why would you bother with Lithium? (Score:3, Interesting)
Use Sodium instead. There's even more of it in seawater. Sure it's a bit heavier, a bit bigger but a tiny fraction of the cost, and cost is a huge problem with batteries.
Re:I'm so happy 'cause today I found my friends (Score:5, Informative)
However, the big catch is that we can't really produce enough Lithium to make all those batteries.
God, that myth just won't die [gas2.org], will it?
But there's probably no practical way to extract it.
Of course there is. There are dozens of ways. Here's one [osti.gov] -- $22-$32/kg. Given that 1kWh of automotive li-ion batteries takes 1-2kg of lithium carbonate and costs about $500, that's a pretty minor cost. More expensive than the surface-mined stuff, mind you (which runs $5-8/kg), but eminently affordable.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If they last a month in my laptop, are cheap to replace, and can be conveniently dropped into a recycling bin where I pick up my new batteries, then I don't care so much. It's the logistics that matter as much as anything. It's usually the logistics that are overlooked.
If you lived, worked, and shopped within a few blocks, you wouldn't even worry about your car most days. That's logistics.
If you could replace gasoline with hydrogen, that'd be great. However, you'd also have to replace gasoline with hydrogen
Re:I love all these green techs (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless they are in the store at an affordable price it doesn't matter to me
In that case, I suggest you read Consumer Weekly, instead of a technology news site.
Parent