Mac Tax, Dell Tax, HP Tax 858
Harry writes "Microsoft's new Windows ad, with shopper Lauren buying a cheap 17-inch HP laptop instead of a $2,800 MacBook Pro, has unleashed the whole 'Are Macs Expensive?' debate again. I'm diving in with a pretty exhaustive comparison of the MacBook Pro against machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, and Sony that were as comparably configured as I could manage. The conclusion: High-end laptops tend to carry high-end prices, whether their operating system hails from Cupertino or Redmond. And the MacBook Pro wasn't the priciest of the systems I compared." We looked at this question, not in as much depth, a couple of years back.
Thanks Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe this will lead Apple to lower their prices a little. That would be great. Cheaper Macs.
It would be one of the worst possible things that could happen to Microsoft though.
The question isn't just "are Macs expensive" (Score:5, Interesting)
... the question is also, "does Lauren need an expensive notebook."
Let's say the MacBook CAN justify its $2800 pricetag (i.e., it's not overpriced hardware, it's just good/expensive hardware and a lot of it). Ok, so the question is, is a $2800 laptop necessary? My $1350 dell ($2050 minus $800 deal) has been working for several years now (battery has died, that's about it. It's old enough that it has a dual core Centrino (32 bit processor).
"Overpriced Mac" can mean more than "the hardware added up doesn't equal the pricetag" ... it can also mean "it's twice as much as you need to spend for what you're going to do with it."
but how much for .... (Score:2, Interesting)
And how much are the Macs with features compared to the lower priced notebooks? You know, the ones with fewer features that I don't need/want?
Non-Silverlight video link? (Score:4, Interesting)
I know no one reads the fine articles but does no one really watch the fine videos? Or does everyone here have Silverlight install?
Would someone be kind enough to post up a non-Silverlight version. Bonus points for a direct link to an open video format (i.e. not flash), but I'm not picky.
Apples and Oranges err... Vistas? (Score:4, Interesting)
I know I'll spark off a debate on this one but you never hear folks complaining that Macs are slow. Part of that is likely to do with OSX but the other part has just as much to do with the fact that Macs are NEVER sold under powered.
On the other hand we have PC manufacturers selling dirt cheap machines that "run" Vista but not well. If those same manufacturers only sold machines that ran their intended software well, the price point comparison would be pretty moot.
Initial investment (Score:5, Interesting)
The point? The cost of ownership over 10 years for a Mac vs PC is a whole lot more comparable than the up front cost. You may not have an extra PC laying around a year later after you buy your Mac, but you can upgrade to this-year's-model for next to nothing if you are willing to sell your Mac.
* You being most people
I hate to say it, but MS had a good point (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been a Mac user for 6 years now, and have loved every machine I've purchased. Having said that, I'm a certain kind of user who matches the machines that Apple sells. I want mid- to mid-high range hardware, capable of pretty extensive multitasking (which, in my experience, works better under OS X than Windows), and the ability to do graphics design and layout (I admit, this was much more hardware-constrained in 2003 than it is now). Macs are a pretty good fit for the featureset that I want, and are price-competitive with Windows boxes.
HOWEVER in the ad, Lauren wants a machine with a certain amount of raw horsepower, a keyboard she likes (which, with Apple, is either entirely true or entirely not) and a 17" screen. That could mean a wide variety of machines -- processor architectures, memory, integrated or discreet graphics -- but Apple, when you want a 17" laptop, assumes you're a higher-end user, that wants a very well engineered battery, a lot of horsepower, a fast dual-core CPU, etc. etc.
Lauren doesn't. She doesn't want a lot of those things. She just wants a computer with a 17" screen. Apple doesn't sell the machine she wants -- but because there's at least 3 or 4 PC brands at any Best Buy, she can walk in and get what she wants for a fraction of what Apple sells it for.
It's a question of mapping: the goal isn't to take an APPLE to start with then compare it to the price of a similar PC; instead, it's to take a PC you want, and asking if there EVEN IS a similar Mac -- in a lot of cases, there just won't be.
Oh, look, fanboy whining (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's rile them up some more: I've owned four laptops in the last ten years, from IBM, Toshiba, HP, and Apple.
The Macbook Pro was the most expensive, has the worst LCD viewing angle, has the worst speakers, is the only one that overheats if you use it with the lid closed, and the only one to have a battery go all 'splody in slow motion. I also had to reflash the power management firmware because it stop charging due to a bug in the previous version. I don't care how much or how little they cost, I'm never making that mistake again.
Re:Upgrading (Score:3, Interesting)
That's true. I was checking out prices for an upgrade from Crucial for a MacBook Pro. To my surprise, I found that just ordering the configuration I wanted from Apple would be cheaper.
Disk prices, on the other hand....
Re:Rehash... (Score:3, Interesting)
a) no, Macs are not significantly more expensive than PCs and
I don't know about that. My fiance is looking for a Mac right now. Their low-end MacBook is $1150 CDN for a laptop that has, suprisingly, almost exactly the same configuration as my (nearly) 2 year old Lenovo Thinkpad I got for $1250. Mine also came with a 3 year warranty. For the same price, you can get a significantly better hardware with another manufacturer. Yes, in the high-end, all computers are expensive, but I am talking about the $1000-$1500 range.
Re:Apples and Oranges err... Vistas? (Score:3, Interesting)
There are other factors, as well... Support and Configuration.
In the last two weeks, I have spent multiple days and nights trying to get my partners new HP notebook to talk to an HP LaserJet 2840 all-in-one machine. The HP software for the HP host to communicate with the HP scanner just does not work. Some similar hardware or network or software compatibility issue soaks up a whole week every few months.
By comparison, my current Apple MacBook Pro has had zero difficulty. Zero. Nada. Each new thing just works.
Of course, I've only been using PCs and Macs for about 25 years. This is my eighth mac, I think, and about the tenth pc in the house. Every mac has had zero issues. Every PC has had multiple issues, and required a lot of work to get it to work.
If I multiply my hourly rate by the time spent getting those machines to work, the PC machines have been hugely more expensive than the Macs.
Re:That's fine but... (Score:5, Interesting)
"Ostensibly, this is to control the quality of the user experience."
I know that some of the advertising and fanboi's make this statement, but the reality is that they are a company looking to profit from as much as they can within their market.
IMO, Apple is a solid company with a tendency to be over-protective, over-aggressive, and over-bearing. That is how they stay in business in the long term, because the technology and ideas really only last so long before someone comes along and improves it.
I'm an Apple user, but that's a choice I make knowing that in the end, there really isn't all that much different between Apple and MS, other than that MS is watched closer by those in power.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Yep (Score:3, Interesting)
This has always been a big problem I've had with Apple, and Apple comparisons, is that Apple doesn't sell what I want. I either have to get much more or much less, there's nothing at the level I want.
In my case, it is a mid range tower. I have a Core 2 Quad system at home and it is precisely what I want. A single quad core processor (was a dual until recently) a very high end consumer video card, and so on. Basically I want a good amount of power, but not excessive, for a reasonable price. I don't want professional grade gear, like ECC FBDIMMs and workstation graphics cards, as I don't use them and it is a lot of extra money. Nor do I want two processors. A Quad is all I need, more than I need actually, my dual was really fine all in all.
Ok well Apple doesn't offer that. If I want a stand alone computer, with a separate monitor (which I do since I love my high end NEC monitor) I can either get a very low end, upgradable system (Mac Mini), or an extremely high end workstation (Mac Pro). There's nothing in between, nothing in the range of what I want.
The problem then with most Mac fan comparisons is that they take the Mac Pro, assume that's what I need, and start specing a similar PC to it. Well, sure enough, the prices are similar. I'd actually save some going with Dell, but not a lot. However I don't want that. They then try and make up reasons as to why I should want the higher power that I won't use.
So you are completely correct: The question is not trying to get two perfectly equal systems. The question is what does the user need, and what can best and most economically meet those needs?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Advantage points seem a little dubious (Score:3, Interesting)
One comparison is the Nikon Camera. Some will buy buy a D300 for $1,500. They will want the features, and have the skill to use them. Some will want the D80 because of the simplicity and the fact that it is plastic and lighter. Even a D80, at $400, is pricier than a click and shoot, that for many people will do a good job at $200.
Apple has not been a company that sells to the average consumer. At least not until the iPod, which the average consumer has decided is worth the money despite the apple tax. It is not a problem because consumers have options for the cheap, point and click, option.
Re:The question isn't just "are Macs expensive" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Upgrading (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Wrong question (Score:2, Interesting)
Buy your high end machine. That's not the question.
The question is should grandma have to buy a high end machine to go on facebook, if she wants to use MacOS because she can't figure out how not to break Windows, or install Linux. How many grandmas would buy Macs if they weren't so damn expensive?
Re:Upgrading (Score:5, Interesting)
You know... I have a problem with that statement. That's half of the fun of using a computer; trying out new stuff. It always has been and always will be.
Of course, the other half is tied between fixing what you've broken or learning to do the first half without breaking it at all.
Re:Upgrading (Score:3, Interesting)
This just in: Buying from the manufacture cheaper then going with someone else.
Your news is sure to rock the automotive world.
Buying replacement wipers for my 2007 Ford Focus cost half as much at the Ford dealer than it did anywhere else. Surprised me too.
Re:Rehash... (Score:1, Interesting)
Again, wrong. Not insightful, wrong.
The 15" MBP claims a battery life of 5 hrs. Dell claims a battery life of 7 hrs for their comparable Latitude E6500 with the extended battery.
Dell: 5.2 pounds, 1-1.3" inches thick (depending on battery)
Mac: 6.6 pounds, 1 inch think (at least according to you)
According to Macworld [macworld.com], the 2.4 Ghz 15" MBPs have a ~2.5 hour battery life. The Dell was recently tested [cnet.com.au] with a 9-cell battery at ~1.5 hours, though you can add a 12-cell battery on top of that to get somewhere in the range 3-4 hours, I'd estimate.
It's not HALF the size, it does NOT have 4x the battery life, is not vastly superior in build quality (I've seen both) and "user experience" is a vague, nebulous, and dubious term used only by Mac fanboys.
So you're going to pay $700 more for a quarter inch?
Re:Fanboy reacts to negative Apple publicity... (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple is essentially the antithesis of open source.
CUPS makes printing on Unix-style systems far easier. CUPS came from Apple and is open source.
Also, don't forget about Darwin(GNU Mach) and Webkit(KHTML). They actually do give back to these things once in a while.
Re:I'm going to pick on his Fanboi here... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Oh, look, fanboy whining (Score:5, Interesting)
Well your milage may vary. I used to buy Sony laptops, and my office uses Dell and for a time Gateway laptops.
I purchased a 15" Macbook Pro three years ago to replace my comparably priced Sony laptop that died while I was out in the field. I have not had a single issue with my laptop. It has logged over 44000 miles of being tossed in a satchel, thrown in the back of a car, and used at many locations. I spent more months than I care to admit using it in the middle of nowhere in the fine state of New Mexico, and I used it while outside during hot and extremely humid days on the gulf coast. My laptop has operated at a variety of temperature and humidity levels. This is my one and only personal computer and it's been on almost constantly during the past three years.
If my laptop failed today, I would immediately buy another one from Apple. This laptop has lasted a year longer than my similarly priced Sony laptop.
During the same 3 year period, some of my friends and colleagues replace their much younger Dell laptops because they failed prematurely. My sister's Dell laptop is a little over a year and a half old, and she's looking at replacing a $250 battery. Most of my non-apple work laptops stay in the office because either they're now too slow (hard drive issues), the plastic clam shell case is broken, or the cheap ass hinges they use have failed.
In addition, my boss still uses his 12" powerbook, and pretty much all the Apple users where I work are not only happy with their current Apple computers, but continue to purchase Apple computers for themselves or their interns (much to the dismay of our Windows centric IT department).
I believe the reason Dell has been more troublesome for my friends and family is the fact that Dell tries to fit as many features as possible to make the laptop look good in a print ad while using the cheapest parts available to meet a price point that their marketing department determine that people are willing to pay.
But like I said, your milage may vary.
Re:Fanboy reacts to negative Apple publicity... (Score:1, Interesting)
I read an article somewhere a few months back - I think it was from someone at apple - maybe even the dude in the turd-el neck - he said something along the lines of "if you ask the user what he wants, you're going to get a slightly tweaked version of what he already has. Yet, if you show him something totally awesome that he would never have thought of but, having seen it, thinks it's really neat, you end up with the user getting something better than what he would have wanted."
I tend to agree with that. I have seen similar occurrences, at a much smaller scale, while working with users on requirements for in-house software. You've got to figure out what they want to do and lead them to a solution (that's why they're the user, and I'm the engineer). What other company offers an integrated solution like this for all your hardware? the computer interacts seamlessly with your portable music player (ipod), connects to your TV (appleTV), and does wireless backups to a hard-drive built into the router (time capsule). It does everything I want it to do, with a few noteable, yet fairly minor, exceptions.
Are you implying that this isn't good enough for you?
Re:Dell has much more variance in prices ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I may lose points for this, but Dell offers too much choice.
I'm a Mac guy who is buying a Windows-based laptop and I find the Dell site damned confusing to get around. There are too many options, too many tiny variations on a theme.
Honestly, who knows the difference between an Intel WiFi Link 5300 (802.11a/g/n) Half Mini-card and an Intel WiFi Link 5100 (802.11a/g/n) Half Mini-card. Dell's little "? Help Me Choose" popup was no help at all. It didn't mention these products at all, but made vague references to networking. Why is there a difference and why is it even offered?