Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
typodupeerror delete not in

Hot Comments

Comments: 124 +-   First Superconducting Transistor Created on Friday December 05 2008, @03:15PM

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Friday December 05 2008, @03:15PM
from the just-make-supercooling-cheaper dept.
hardware
technology
holy_calamity writes "New Scientist reports that the first working superconducting transistor has been created, by researchers at the University of Geneva. Field effect transistors with zero electrical resistance would allow much faster operations. Only drawback is they need to be supercooled, something that may be addressed by improving the materials used."
story

Related Stories

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.
  • by Raul654 (453029) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:19PM (#26006765) Homepage

    "Only drawback is they need to be supercooled, something that may be addressed by improving the materials used." - that last part is a bit of an understatement. We're still decades (centuries?) away from room temperature superconductors [slashdot.org].

    • We're still decades (centuries?) [sic] away from room temperature superconductors.

      Why would that be? After all, cold-fusion [std.com] is already a reality!

      =Smidge=

    • by Sunthalazar (69878) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:35PM (#26006953)

      Sure, but you don't have to do it at room temperature, either. There are superconductors at Liquid Nitrogen temps. Certainly most MRI machines use Liquid Helium temperature superconductors. They, of course, cost millions of dollars, but they are still used quite frequently.

      IIRC, LN costs about the same as milk (~$3/gallon). If the rate of evaporation wasn't too great, it would just be an on-going charge. Say it was 1 gallon/month, would only cost you about $36/year.

      Obviously LN distribution isn't up to par with electricity, but in the "closer" term it certainly would be feasible for "industrial" applications. Like running the Internet backbone routers.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Honestly, I do not think that room temperature superconductors should be necessary in order to give us incentive to utilize superconducting transistors in products of some sort. A superconducting transistor capable of functioning properly at temperatures that could be maintained by liquid nitrogen would be more than sufficient to give rise to viable commercial products, albeit only for a small niche within the greater computing market. Obviously LN2 just isn't going to work in a handheld or portable devic
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I'd think that they would become useful first in places that are already using superconductor devices, like medical sensors and photo sensors.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        Never done much overclocking and had reason to investigate the alternative cooling systems that requires, like oil or water cooling or piezoelectrics? Those present substantial maintentance and disaster possibilities that are enough to scare away all but the most determined. It's not when fun when your water-cooling system springs a leak and wrecks components (both from direct water damage and from heat damage from the loss of necessary cooling).

        Having LIQUID NITROGEN in my desktop PC would seem to presen

        • by UnderCoverPenguin (1001627) on Friday December 05 2008, @07:30PM (#26009371)

          Having LIQUID NITROGEN in my desktop PC would seem to present maintenance and disaster potential an order of magnitude greater than that: what if the enclosure ruptures and explodes like a capacitor? What if it leaks nitrogen into the room and asphyxiates my cat sleeping on the floor?

          Years ago, I did Unix administration for the School of Science for a small university. The server room was behind the NMR lab (with its large superconducting magnets) and I had to go through the NMR lab to get to the sever room. In fact, the sever room was also used to store a 100 litre tank of LN and 100 litre tank of LH. The tanks will not explode. In fact, they leak a tiny amount of nitrogen and helium all the time. Even in the closed sever room (it had its own AC, seperate from the building AC), this was not a problem.

          Also, a PC is not like a superconducting magnet: It will not 'quench' and cause the LN to rapidly evaporate. Even if it did, a PC is not going to contain much LN - less than 1 litre. A magnet (at least back then) would have 50 (or more) litres of LN (and LH). The affect on a the nitrogen level of the 20x20 room was negligible, even at floor lever. And, if your PC did quench, the noise of the escaping gas would almost certainly wake your cat or dog (with the likely size of the relief orifice in the PC would result in a piecing ultrasonic whistle, which cats and dogs cat hear).

          (FWIW, the most, be far, dangerous aspect of a magnet quench is the helium. But that clings to the ceiling. Being cold, it also condenses water vapor, forming a cloud.)

          • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

            He's concerned about the safety of using a supercooled computer to control his home fast-breeder reactor

      • Think of power converters. Think of a broadcast TV transmitter.

    • "Only drawback is they need to be supercooled, something that may be addressed by improving the materials used." - that last part is a bit of an understatement. We're still decades (centuries?) away from room temperature superconductors [wikipedia.org].

      Even getting it up to liquid nitrogen temperatures would probably be "good enough" for non-portable uses. I'm pretty sure that's a heck of a lot cheaper than liquid helium.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Supercooled means liquid helium or less. This is not the same (and about 2-5 times more costly) than liquid nitrogen cooled. There are superconductors that work at liquid nitrogen temperatures, but that cannot be pulled into wires that can carry the same current as the supercooled superconductor materials (or that was the state of the art when I last checked around 2000) so they are not used for very large magnets.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 05 2008, @03:49PM (#26007135)

        so they are not used for very large magnets.

        The wire drawing issue doesn't exactly help, but the main reason is Type I [wikipedia.org] vs. Type II [wikipedia.org] superconductors - the low-temperature metallic superconductors have a kind of superconductivity (Type I) that doesn't break down even in quite strong magnetic fields. However, the liquid-nitrogen (relatively-)high-temperature ceramic superconductors lose superconductivity (Type II) beyond a certain field strength. Which is very bad if you're using them for magnetic resonance imaging or particle acceleration (note how the LHC failure involved liquid helium cooling) which depend on generating and switching really strong magnetic fields generated by superconducting supermagnets, but doesn't matter so much if you're using them for computing or power transmission (with due care and attention to the strength of magnetic fields to avoid sudden catastrophic breakdown...).

        • by Baron Eekman (713784) on Friday December 05 2008, @05:09PM (#26008025)

          You're half right.

          Two facts:
          1) all superconductors superconduct better at lower temperatures
          2) all superconductors superconduct better at lower magnetic fields

          Basically, you can think of it as both temperature and magnetic field introducing a kind of disorder (causing Cooper pairs [wikipedia.org] to break up, destroying superconductivity).

          Type I superconductors don't allow any magnetic fields, Type II allow up to certain field strengths, depending on the material and also on temperature. (This is a 'competition' between the two important length scales in a superconductor: the coherence length--size of a Cooper pair; and the penetration depth--up to which distance a magnetic field still penetrates into the material).

          In fact, the most important drawback of the high-temperature superconductors (up to about 140K), is that at those higher temperatures they don't allow for high magnetic field nor high current. Also, they're hard to produce on a large scale. Still it's commercially viable these days to use superconductors for current transport at liquid nitrogen temperatures.

    • They only need to be room temperature for 'consumer' grade computers.

    • by MozeeToby (1163751) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:39PM (#26007007)

      That all depends on what you consider 'room temperature'. To me, that doesn't mean actual room temperature, it means a temperature that can be achieved with small, economical cooling systems. I could see all the way down to -50 degrees C being practical for in home use. Considering the record for superconductivity is around -135 C, we're really not all that far away. In fact, seen as liquid nitrogen is relatively cheap to produce, if transistors existed above that temperature it would be possible to begin large scale experimentation now.

      Also, it's important to keep in mind that we don't have a working theory for how the newer higher temperature superconductors work. It's within the realms of imagination that when we finally come up with an explaination, research will proceed much more rapidly. The highest temperature superconductors known today were found essentially by trial and error.

    • Bad timetable. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Tatarize (682683) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:40PM (#26007029) Homepage

      We have no idea how far away we are. We don't fully get it and are pretty much trying substances at random. We might figure out something that works next year or never. It's not something you can predict with any accuracy.

    • OK, so we submerge the entire PC into some sort of super cold, non conductive substance. So just how fast would a super cold, quantum computer compute? Would I finish writing its software before I began or would the software vanish as soon as i peeked at its output?

    • "Only drawback is they need to be supercooled, something that may be addressed by improving the materials used." - that last part is a bit of an understatement.

      Is an understatement from the New Sensationalist (as it should properly be called) an oxymoron?

      The New Sensationalist runs a story every couple of weeks about how some new breakthrough will revolutionize something or other in the next two years. Has anyone gone through their predictions like we do with psychics to see what their actual hit rate really is?

    • Minor detail indeed.

      That's like saying, "I have a cancer cure pill that works 100% percent of the time and costs mere pennies per pill, with no patents! Oh, one minor hitch, my revolutionary "cyanide pill" tends to kill the host, but we're optimistic on a workaround!"

      Sounds like something you'd say to investors to raise capital, not to peer scientists, or know-it-all /.'ers for that matter.
  • by cjfs (1253208) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:21PM (#26006797) Homepage Journal

    At 0.3 kelvin - just above absolute zero - these electrons flow without resistance and so create a superconductor.

    So my stock fan won't quite cut it this time?

    • I suppose if it blows hard enough it might push the electrons faster~

      • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 05 2008, @03:39PM (#26007023)
        Hear that "whooshing" sound? It's not a fan.
      • Re:Liquid cooling? (Score:5, Informative)

        by p0tat03 (985078) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:46PM (#26007073)
        Yes they do. [wikipedia.org]
        • Surely I'm missing something; except from that initial whoosh from the parent, I don't see how Bernoulli's pincipal has anything to do with whether or not the heat generated by friction from a fan is outweighed by some kind of imaginary cooling power...
          • The fan does create heat - but it also is able to lower temperatures significantly inside its airstream, which when aligned correctly means faster heat transfer between the *really hot* parts of your machine and the outside world. It's not imaginary, it's *cue Nye-esque voice* science!
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          I think the parent's point is that if you put a fan in an isolated box, the average temperature inside the box will increase.

          Of course that if you have cold air somewhere you can move it using a fan to decrease temperature in another place. Or you can remove warm air as long as you have a source of colder air available.

          And of course that moving air can aid you at lowering your body temperature by assisting you in transpiration.

          The parent is just being pedantic.

      • Well, I know one slashdotter that hasn't been reading the marketing materials. Jeesh!

  • HAL9000 singing that song popped into my head after reading that headline.
    Perhaps this discovery is just one more step in the direction of a singing homicidal AI computer.

    Daisy, Daisy
    Give me your answer do
    I'm half crazy
    all for the love of you...
  • Not really news (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 05 2008, @03:30PM (#26006889)

    Josephson Junction has been used for switching in superconductors since I was a kid.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson_effect

  • by johndoe42 (179131) on Friday December 05 2008, @03:41PM (#26007033)

    As far as I know, the first superconducting transistor was reported in 2006:

    cond-mat/0601434 [arxiv.org]

    • Since you seem to know something about it, can you explain a very basic thing - isn't a superconducting semiconductor a contradiction? When a gate is shut off, obviously it has resistance. So unlike a superconductor, a "superconducting" transistor will still consume energy and release heat. Correct or incorrect?
  • Wow! thats super c... uggh... forget it

  • ...are hard at work trying to figure out how to run one of these things in an aquarium.
  • ...about liquid-cooled laptops? I've a feeling someone's about to make a joke about that and this story...

  • Everyone had that dream in college. Build a liquid nitrogen cooled computer at 4Ghz in your dorm room while you could still use all the electricity you wanted. Even 10 years later that's still an untouchable speed for consumers.

  • Speed??? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Biff Stu (654099) on Friday December 05 2008, @04:45PM (#26007749)

    Speed isn't only determined by on-state resistance. Capacitance & inductance matter too and will be the limiting factors for a theoretical transistor that's 0 resistance on and infinite resistance off. Such a theoretical transistor won't dissipate heat, so it won't get hot. However, heat will be dissipated somewhere else because current still must flow from high potential to low potential. Furthermore, transition times aren't arbitrarily fast, and during the transition, the transistor will dissipate resistive power; this could be a big problem for systems cooled below 4 K.

  • FETs are tricky (Score:3, Interesting)

    by smellsofbikes (890263) on Friday December 05 2008, @04:58PM (#26007893) Journal

    We'd love to get our hands on some superconducting FETs. The ones I'm designing around right now have 5 milliohms Rds, and they're *still* getting so hot we have to solder big heat sinks onto the backsides of them.

    But this just shifts the problem to the gate drive, because during any finite time period between 'off' and 'on' the FET acts like a big power resistor and heats up. Even if people ever make these so they're superconducting at room temp, they'll still heat up when in the active region. (Or we'd need to develop drivers that could produce instantaneous off/on transition times.) So we'd need ones that could remain superconductive in well over room-temp transients. If you have a superconducting FET that suddenly stops superconducting because of a temperature peak, it'll vaporize just about instantaneously. These would be an exciting gamble.

  • 80 watts for 80K (Score:3, Interesting)

    by climate_control (1381507) on Friday December 05 2008, @05:21PM (#26008145)

    Yes, you can insulate a device, so that in almost all cases (definitely in the case of a fast-switching transistor) the main heat source is the device itself.

    Here's a commercial box [suptech.com] that cools a 2-inch wafer of high-temperature superconductor to around 80K. This box uses 80 watts including whatever other signal processing stuff is in there.

    Another source (Cryogenics 42 (2002) 705-718) says that 1W of cooling power at 4K will cost you 5kW of input power using a straightforward helium compressor. This scales as 1/temperature^2 for higher temperatures, but for lower temperatures you'd switch to a different type of refrigerator.

    0.3K refrigerators using helium 3 would not use more than 10kW, but this is already too much for most applications.

    So the practical significance of this research is that it may be reproduced with higher temperature materials, not that we will build THz DSPs at 0.3K.

  • by Tweenk (1274968) on Friday December 05 2008, @05:22PM (#26008151)

    Use of the term "supercooled" in this context is bogus. Something is supercooled if it remains a liquid, even though it should be a solid at those conditions (or it remains a gas where it should be a liquid). If you put a glass of very clean distilled water in a freezer you'll find out that you can cool it down to -7*C or lower without freezing. It will momentarily freeze if you drop a snow flake into it though, or when you hit the glass with a screwdriver.

    (For the curious: this is because extremely small crystals and droplets have higher free enthalpy than the bulk phase due to surface effects, so their formation is inhibited.)

    This has nothing to do with superconductors, because they are always solids and cannot be supercooled. For superconductors you're looking for "cooled below its critical temperature", but I admit that it doesn't sound as good as "supercooled".

Love in your heart wasn't put there to stay. Love isn't love 'til you give it away. -- Oscar Hammerstein II