Doing the Math On the New MacBook 783
Technologizer writes "Apple's new MacBook is a significantly different machine than its predecessor — a slicker laptop at a higher price point. But does it carry a large price premium over similar Windows PCs? I did a painstaking spec-by-spec comparison versus three roughly comparably-configured Windows machines, and came to the conclusion that the value it offers for price paid is not out of whack with the Windows world." The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
Is Apple trying to kill their own tech? (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, no FireWire? I know they tried to screw the IEEE 1394 working group with the bait-and-switch license pricing tactic, and the beating they took in the industry was well deserved. But 1394 is superior from an operational standpoint, even if the controllers are a bit of unwieldy packaging-wise and expensive to boot. To have removed it completely from the low-end laptop doesn't bode well for it's future in the rest of the consumer hardware line, although lots of people still have MiniDV cams that use it. USB2/3 will in no way be able to fill that gap, even with the coming surge in hard-disk video cameras.
You fail, Apple. No FW400 (at a freakin' minimum, come on), no sale. I'll get the Dell or the Lenovo and Hackintosh the bejeezus out of it.
Sigh... (Score:4, Interesting)
There are many, many examples of how the 'reviewer' has simply picked the wrong comparisons. Sony and Lenovo are notoriously expensive. Generic Dells are notoriously crappy. And of course, where the Apple is deficient (e.g. hard disk space or RAM) the reviewer doesn't add the necessary upgrades at Apple's prices to make the price comparison fair, it simply ignores them.
I can't link to it because of Dell's site, but for about $100 more Dell currently has an XPS 1330 which whips the Macbook in virtually every respect: much better graphics, much more RAM and HDD, significantly faster CPU, bigger battery, better connectivity, and so on. Mysteriously, the reviewer has instead selected a relatively poor quality Dell as a comparison point.
Some other selections from TFA:
How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?
I understand that the objective is to compare "like-for-like" and see whether Apple is adding a premium, but if an AMD chip (or a different Intel chip) offers comparable or better performance but is not available on a Mac, then how is that not part of the 'cost' of buying Apple? Limiting it to Core 2 Duo seems unneccessary. And why is it legitimate to reconfigure the competition, but not the Mac? Could it be that Apple savagely gouge you for any upgrades?
Why not pay whatever Apple charges for the same capacity? One of the biggest Apple gouges is when you add RAM or storage to their preconfigured systems. Ignoring this is not justified.
And yet, there would be hundreds of x86 laptops on the market that provide 4 or more.
Or you could pick a different Dell, like an XPS series model, and get HDMI, s-video and DVI as standard. In addition, the review does not appear to add in the cost of Apples various dongles and attachments.
HDMI equates to "optical out" and is arguably more useful for modern hi-fi equipment. I am relatively ignorant about audio in options.
Again, this is simply a result of picking the wrong competition - again check out (for instance) Dell XPS laptops, which are extremely well built and solid.
Re:the big diff (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting. Does Apple offer a refund for OS X to make itself competitive in this regard?
Screen resolutions are a deal breaker for me. (Score:5, Interesting)
One reason I dislike current laptops are their (generally) crappy LCD resolutions. Over the past 7-8 years I've only used laptops with 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, including the T60p I'm typing this from. I actually prefer the 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, but I know it's a losing battle. A very limited number of T61p were released with them, and I'm pretty sure they'll be the last in history.
I'm not unreasonable, and I understand that movies look better if they fill the widescreen. Although with all the variations in widescreen ratios, I'm yet to see a movie without any black borders. You can also display two documents side by side, even though 90% of people I've seen only show a single maximized instance of MS Word with a single document open. Widescreens do take less room in cramped spaces, allow for more keyboard space and even numpads, etc. However I use my laptop for typing, and screen height is far more important than width. I'm a minority though, so I'll adapt.
Now assuming I'd be looking for a replacement laptop tomorrow (hopefully my T60p will last a while), moving to Apple would mean going "down" to a 15.4in WSXGA (loss of 150pixel height) on the Macbook Pros or 13.3in WXGA (loss of 250pixel height and 200pixel width) on the Macbooks. THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS.
On the other hand I just checked out Lenovo's site. Their T500 laptop is offered with a 15.4in WSXGA or WSGA+ resolution. The WSXGA+ is only a $75 upgrade, and it offers the same height and much more width than my SXGA+. The rest of the specs are very close to the Macbook Pro, but at first glance it's about $200 cheaper.
Beyond their arguably sleek design, the absolutely only reason any rational person would even consider a Macbook or Macbook Pro is OS X. I used it briefly, and I really liked it. Unfortunately given my laptop use, the OS alone is not incentive enough to put up with the limited and (slightly) more expensive hardware.
Re:Is Apple trying to kill their own tech? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think Apple's thought process is that if they get rid of the firewire from the low end laptops, people who need it are going to upgrade to Macbook Pros. Which probably isn't that far off. If you require firewire for your work and you're accustomed to FCP, then chances are you're not going to get a Win laptop and Hackintosh it, you're just gonna put in the money to get the one with firewire.
Re:They totally missed the whole point of the phra (Score:1, Interesting)
seriously though, the largest part of laptops i see at my university (i study computer science) are macbooks. students usually arent that rich, but we usually know what we need more than the usual lets-buy-an-asus-laptop guy.
Re:the big diff (Score:5, Interesting)
To add:
4. Backlit keyboard. Really nice in dim rooms.
If there are other differentiations, I either don't know about them or not that important to me.
Re:Design items... (Score:2, Interesting)
These "Macs are about design" arguments don't quite explain why Mac use is up at places where design should be way in the back seat to functionality. People keep talking about how Mac percentages are up at Unix conferences, and Macs are present at NASA, JPL, and other hardcore science organizations.
Maybe the objective value there is the ability to run mainstream apps like MS Office at the same time you run command-line Unix apps.
Re:Sigh... (Score:1, Interesting)
I agree.
A few months ago my father was looking to buy a new laptop. He had been an apple user for years but was balking at the price of the macbook (1100 euro). I convinced him to buy a Dell.
People think that Dell's do not match Apple in quality but that is a myth. It's spin by the masters of spin, Apple. Why did he have to replace his three year old iBook while my four year old Inspiron was still running fine (and I use mine a hell of a lot more than he uses his)?
The supposedly super strong Polycarbonate chassis was creaking and felt like it was about to fall apart. The battery was loose and if the laptop was moved without being plugged in the power would die. The charger or power slot was faulty because you would have to keep plugging/unplugging and fiddling with the plug for it to start charging. That laptop never left the comfort of the front room in his house. My Dell has been travelling everywhere with me and taken a hell of a lot more knocks.
Then we get back to the price... I reminded my father that that was his third Apple laptop in 10 years. He had a Powerbook 3400c (which was second hand and still works, just incredibly slow), a Wallstreet PowerBook G3 (had more problems than his last iBook) and then there's the previously mentioned iBook. I then reminded him about my laptop, how old it is, what it's been through, and how it's still fine.
He decided to go with Dell then so I bought him an Inspiron. He got a 2.2Ghz C2D, 2GB RAM, 250GB HDD, 15 inch screen, HDMI out (he's got a 1080p telly so that was essential). It cost 600 euro inc shipping and taxes. That's 500 euro less than the comparable macbook at the time, which didn't have HDMI.
The funny thing is that he had Macs because I used to be a Mac user. That is until Mr. Jobs took over at apple and made them fashion accessories rather than computers. I now build my own desktops and media PC, and use my Inspiron and eeePC. All run Linux.
Battery life (Score:4, Interesting)
The cheapest MacBook/iBook has, from at least 2005 (as long as I've checked out the market) been in the top cathegory for battery life in it's priceclass, and, they don't even lie that much with how long time they can actually be used responsibly.
Also, they are pretty much noiceless and doesn' generate extreme hot spots like many laptops do, making them more comfortable to use in your lap.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:3, Interesting)
The point of the article is that macs aren't overpriced.
I'm not convinced. While the article does tally with my experience when shopping around for a laptop, I had a student discount on the MacBook which made me go for it. And it was the last generation. I'm not sure if this still holds as PC laptops have gotten much cheaper in the last 6 months.
Also, it was in the UK where Macs are priced similarly in real terms to the States and PCs are twice as expensive ("strong currency tax" anyone?).
Re:Design items... (Score:5, Interesting)
Colour me surprised when I found out that at the Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute (KURRI - nuclear reactor-based research), the percentage of Macs was around 40-50%!
At a month-long course on X-Ray and Neutron science in France, 25% of the presenters laptops were macs too.
I guess we go for the shiny and UNIX.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:1, Interesting)
So don't install Vista. I call bullshit on anti-virus slowing down the machine a lot. I have a Macbook Pro and I'm never amazed by the speed, rather the lack of speed. Though I'm used to having desktops with bigger and faster HDDs.
Safari is the software which really craps on my experience. And the fact that I still haven't bought more memory yet since I wanted to send this one back.
Re:Well, someone paid a tax (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you jest, but Every man that I see that touches one of the newest Macbook's has a wet stain on his pants and says in a low tone..."I must have this"
Honestly, If Dell made a laptop that was near the macbook pro caliber in build they would sell just as well and cost as much.
I tolerate dell lattitude laptops simply because the parts are dirt cheap. I have had "high end" sony Viao laptops and they are utter crap in build quality and design. Alienware laptops feel cheap and I dont want to carry a cartoon character around, they look incredibly dorky in the boardroom, I might as well have a giant "the TICK" sticker on my laptop and wear a TICK t-shirt.
Well the hipper part is kind of fun... When you walk in with a laptop that makes the suits stare, and then you use keynote to show them a presentation that makes their best power point look like a childs crayon drawing... well yeah, it's nice to look hipper than the CEO that makes 40X your salary. You end up closing the deal far faster that way.
it's why all our salespeople have them. That and the sales idiots cant infect a OSX laptop in 20 seconds with all their inane clicking and downloading. They still bitch they cant have windows laptops.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:5, Interesting)
After using half Windows and half Mac for 6 months last year, I switched totally to the Mac about 6 months ago. Here's what I've concluded:
1) OSX is not very fast. I think it's bloated. I've got a ridiculous amount of processing power on this Mac Pro, but it just doesn't move that fast.
2) XP is not very fast. I know it's bloated.
So what's the difference?
OSX is still as slow on my MacBook as it was the day I bought it. I've already formatted my XP Boot Camp gaming partition once this year to get my speed back.
The big problem with Windows is that it gets slower as you go. I haven't noticed that at all with the Mac, even as I wantonly install and uninstall programs. I used to be terrified of what new programs would do to my XP machine. I just haven't had that problem with OSX. Plus, I have access to lots of cool things developed for UNIX that don't seem to slow anything down, stay out of my way, and Just Work.
Re:Well, someone paid a tax (Score:4, Interesting)
I purchased an Alienware laptop for my wife a few years back. Though she doesn't play games, she insisted on a laptop that could do it. (works out well for me, since now I don't have to lug my laptop around if I want to play a game).
The Alienware had a beautiful screen, and enough horsepower to play the latest games at near maximum resolution. I was happy with it. It also cost less than $2000 brand new, which I considerd a fair price for the specs of the machine. It was faster, and had a larger screen than my Dell Inspiron 8600 (Which is still alive after 4 years of beating the hellout of it.) However, it did have a video card failure. Thankfully it was swappable, which was one of the reasons I went with alienware. Less than $200 to repair and it was back up and running. My Dell hasn't yet had a failure.
The point is, for a laptop to last for over 2 years and only suffer a video-card failure, I'd consider $1700 a good price.
Re:You've been owned (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree.
The marginal utility of the Mac is the amount of thought that goes into the entire system. Everything from MagSafe and freefall harddrive locking to built-in webcams (which you'll notice PCs quickly copied) to POSIXy goodness and Open Group certification. Different volume settings for different audio pipelines. Self-contained applications, system-wide and per-user settings, etc.
Add to that its greatness as a development environment and I'm pretty much sold.
If only OS X (specifically HFS+) would support filesystem holes. Grrrr...
Re:You've been owned (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact that they can't give concrete examples is why you should listen to them.
A system that you don't notice, one that gets out of your way and lets you do things, is the best system.
Being obsessed with FEATURES (omg!) is what drives Microsoft's software development. So, yeah, thanks for a couple decades of bugs and bloat.
Re:Macs have always been competitive. (Score:3, Interesting)
So performance matters, but user interface doesn't on a computer?
Seems a bit short sighted to me.
Sometimes user interface means that performance doesn't matter.
Try this: On Windows, in a non-admin account, try changing your IP from a static to DHCP address. On a Mac, one click: Apple menu>Locations>DHCP
It still boggles my mind that on simple things like this, Windows still can't get it right or easy.
Re:Resale value... (Score:3, Interesting)
That's a double-edged sword too. We sell new and used macs, but we actually don't get in many used macs. People run them for 5, 7, even 10 years before they upgrade. And by then they get handed off to the kids. We see few used desktops to sell, and VERY few used laptops. I have yet to see us set out a used laptop that lasts more than a week before someone buys it.
What that means for the person that buys it is, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a good price when it comes time to sell it. My new macbook is winding its way through FedEx now, and this one will be on ebay sometime next week. It'll be the fourth mac laptop I've sold, (I upgrade every 2-3 yrs) and I expect it to half pay for the new one. Try that with anything else. I also like to think that at over 2 yrs old, this macbook is still pretty high-end. I'm not so sure I'd have that perception with a 2 yr old Lenvo etc. That's all I can think of to explain the resale value, is that others agree with me here.
Also, in a roundabouts sort of way, this tendency to go a long time between upgrading can cause more grief than it solves. People bring in machines running 8 year old software on 9 year old hardware and need it repaired or to fix system/application problems, and that can be very difficult or impossible due to age. I personally think keeping a system past 5 years turns it into a liability. Especially if you're using it for your business.
Sadly I say this while at work I have a PoweMac G5 and a PowerMac G4 as my service machines, and we have an iMac G5 and G4 as our front counter (sales/checkout) machines. (yes that's right, we do mac sales and service, and or business runs on 4-6 yr old machines) Yesterday that was discussed, and "why should we replace them? those work fine?" *sigh* Curst that mac longevity! :P They can keep the imacs up front if they want, but I'm insisting on our demo mac pro to replace the G4 this christmas.
Re:I also like this (Score:4, Interesting)
IOW, they're engineered to a non-existent standards. Once again, something that would be a serious bad point for any other product is twisted around to be a good point for Apple...
Re:Seriously flawed... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense."
People that make their living with their computer should.
The junk that they sell as a consumer notebook these days is terrible.
Audio recordings are full of static. Hard drives seem so slow that it just isn't funny and a build quality that is just a bad joke.
The specs are close on a lot of consumer notebooks but they cut corners on the parts that are not on the spec like hard drive speed, power supply quality, and build quality in general.
Yes you or I can take a consumer notebook and get a few years out of it. But a good notebook can last for five years or more and work every day for five years. If you don't play games then you might be surprised to see just how well a good five year old Thinkpad will work if you keep it clean and free of malware.
Quality really does count. I would rather spend a few hundred more for a quality product than for the cheapest piece of junk that will run Windows.
I don't own a Mac but I will pay a little more for a good notebook.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:3, Interesting)
A 1:1 spec comparison is simply assinine.
The WHOLE POINT of PCs is the fact that you don't have
to be limited to the options given to you by Apple. You
can make relatively minor tweaks to the specs that make
a large difference in price while not significantly
effecting the end result.
Making cost feature tradeoffs is the core of engineering.
It's too bad that the Apple cheerleaders here whining about "engineering" don't seem to understand that.
That is why the functionally equivalent Dell is half the price.
Been there. Did that. Couldn't justify the Apple laptop. (no matter how "cool" it might be)
So, I will just have to limit myself to 2.5 Apples... '-pppp
Macintosh vs Hackintosh (Score:2, Interesting)
It's the hardware (Score:3, Interesting)