Doing the Math On the New MacBook 783
Technologizer writes "Apple's new MacBook is a significantly different machine than its predecessor — a slicker laptop at a higher price point. But does it carry a large price premium over similar Windows PCs? I did a painstaking spec-by-spec comparison versus three roughly comparably-configured Windows machines, and came to the conclusion that the value it offers for price paid is not out of whack with the Windows world." The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
Well, someone paid a tax (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know who paid it, but someone did:
The challenge of the thumbscoop was to create a crisply machined scoop that was still comfortable to use. The designers at Apple worked on hundreds of versions of the thumbscoop -- even examining them under an electron microscope -- to get it right.
If anyone can read that last part without laughing...
Design items... (Score:5, Insightful)
Macs are design items. Some people don't mind paying a higher price for something which appeals to them.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. If you subjectively feel that the value of the product matches the price paid then an objective comparison is not significant.
the big diff (Score:4, Insightful)
is the OS. You dont get mac os x on another machine!
Fingerprint items (Score:5, Insightful)
Fingerprint Scanner
The Dell and Sony have one. ADVANTAGE: DELL AND SONY
It makes me laugh every time: Hmmmm a finger print reader......where would I be able to find fingerprints of someone who has used this laptop that I have just stolen? Sure hope they don't always use gloves when they type.....
I mean, where can you think of a more cool-but-useless feature? And it is sooo cool.......
Groundhog Day: (Score:5, Insightful)
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
2) MacBook (End of 2006):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
3) MacBook (Mid 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
4) MacBook (End of 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
5) MacBook (Beginning of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
And now - totally surprising:
5) MacBook (End of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
Who would have thought!
Re:Design items... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:From artickle (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, you are right, i don't cite all. But i can: "The differences between OS X and Windows are far more significant than any spec I discuss in this article. But I'm trying to focus mostly on speeds and feeds here - things that can be compared in an objective fashion. I cheerfully acknowledge that that's only part of the equation, but when people talk about Macs being pricey, they're comparing hardware, not software environments or user experiences." What is now different? That Author acknowledgement about this is only part equation, not whole system? Maybe some people only complain Mac price and think only about hardware, but i know lot people, who sees whole system and buy system, not only hardware. I think my point is still valid: even if you don't know, how to count "software environments or user experiences", this matters and people pay for this. You can get good hardware, but without software this is useless.
Another big difference: competition. (Score:5, Insightful)
You will also get some brands of Windows laptop much cheaper by shopping around. In fact, Dell is one of the only companies who don't fall into this category.
Not to mention that the review picks Lenovo and Sony, two of the most expensive brands. Where is Asus, for instance?
Re:the big diff (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is exactly why I'm a PC guy
Seriously, I'm just going to install and use Linux anyway - I want the best hardware for the lowest price.
Re:Design items... (Score:3, Insightful)
Macs are design items. Some people don't mind paying a higher price for something which appeals to them.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. If you subjectively feel that the value of the product matches the price paid then an objective comparison is not significant.
For those of us (many of us) who need Mac/OSX for their work, opinions that the premius is worth it because of the fancy design is frankly insulting.
In a situation where Apple is the only official and legal seller of OSX compatible computers, claiming that all buyers buy it since they love the design (as if they have a choice) sounds as if all people who bought a Windows PC in the last year or so, do it because they love Vista.
The math shows that Macs are overpriced (Score:4, Insightful)
In TFA it is stated on page 3 that the MacBook costs 1299$ while the Lenovo is 1264.84$, the Sony is $1194.99 and the Dell is $819. Yet, in order to make the MacBook appear to be not so expensive in comparison, it states that they are all of comparable value and therefore, as you should ignore price differences in the scale of 100$, they all cost the same. I mean, WTF?
But that isn't all. There are a few more laptop manufacturers that, oddly enough, happen to be the world's leading laptop manufacturers (Acer, HP, Asus, etc) and also, oddly enough, offer similar laptops in the same price range of the Dell laptop. In fact, Sony and Lenovo are known as the inexplicably expensive laptop brands.
So, having said that, how exactly can anyone claim that the Apple laptops aren't expensive when you realize that their laptops are more expensive than the already expensive windows laptops? You can't.
P.S.: The current Apple laptops are also PCs. It doesn't make sense to claim that a Windows laptop is a PC while the Apple laptop is something else.
Re:Design items... (Score:5, Insightful)
Many of you? With all due respect there are not a huge number of things that really honestly require a Mac these days. I've done desktop publishing, graphics work, sound recording and design, video editing all on Windows. It works quite well with the right software these days. Granted, if you _have_ to have some particular OS X only software a Mac is the only option. But that's a clear minority these days.
So no, not that many.
But I never said that everyone buys Macs for the nice design. I said that an objective price comparison is irrelevant to someone who did. Don't jump to generalizations just because I managed to irritate you when you didn't bother to read my post thoroughly.
Re:Sigh... (Score:3, Insightful)
How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?
Let me explain it for you then :)
I've said it once [slashdot.org], and I'll say it again: The power brick of the macbook (any mac laptop i guess) alone is worth the price difference already. :)
Also add in the:
- magsafe power plug
- the new glass trackpad
- LED backlit screen
- OS X
- the new unibody design
- (to me) fantastic industrial design
Some of the other companies have 1 or 2 of the above points (like LED backlit? I'm not sure) and maybe some of the Sony designs are nice. But still not nicer than the macbooks (to me).
Anyways, I'm happy to pay the nominally extra charge for the above features. They just don't exist in any other laptops.
Will you people PLEASE stop comparing specs. It's useless I tell you. The price difference isn't in the specs, it's in other parts of the computer.
Re:the big diff (Score:5, Insightful)
There's more than that. What I don't get on other notebooks is:
1. True multi-touch trackpad (not just scrolling). You can go on ebay and try for a fingerworks trackpad when they are available at ebay but they go for big money and are for desktops (but nice software, too bad company was bought by apple).
2. Economizing ports. I like a lack of ports, it always irks me when I see something as antiquated as a serial port on my notebook. Don't ask me why, but it's rather like seeing a floppy drive on a notebook.
3. Stylish elegance. THe unibody construction is really nice. It may be silly, but even the upper end notebooks from competitors seem like hunks of ugly black plastic, and if not, they still get a lot of little things wrong. The little things like their crappy bezels/logos on the back or just the obvious overpacking of ports to fill out a bureacratic checklist. It's like they try to a certain extent, and then promptly give up once they have to invest in something that costs more money than usual.
Yes, Apple owns me completely, I guess I'm their whore in this direction. But since a notebook is a tool I work with all day (has replace my desktop as well), I might as well get something I like, even if it costs a bit more.
I honestly don't get the debate. Either buy it or don't. But this issue/whining comes so frequently, I have to wonder if its from people who want to get one but can't afford it, can't talk their boss/SO into it, or just too cheap. I never hear people obsess over Alienware's prices as much. Even the new Macbook, lacking firewire, may be called the new 13 inch Mac Book Pro for all intents and purposes and considering some of the upgrade, the rise in price was probably warranted (more RAM in both offerings by default is called for though).
Instead, it seems like they are constantly trying to make others feel bad for their purchase. Lighten up, it's just a notebook. I would got with an MSI Wind|EEEpc + cheap desktop if I couldn't afford the Mac right now. Not a big deal.
Seriously flawed... (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it more expensive than a high-end Windows machine? Not really.
Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense.
Does Apple offer $500 laptops? Nope.
Ergo, Apple is expensive.
You've been owned (Score:2, Insightful)
We're not talking about subjective value-feelings here; we're talking about intentional manipulation by a sleak advertising campaign that turns people into drones who really do believe that there is something magical in a Mac that other computers don't have.
Tell me, what is the marginal utility of that special Mac aura?
You've been had my friend.
Re:Groundhog Day: (Score:3, Insightful)
TFA is completely bogus. He explicitly compares mass-produced Apple configurations to custom-configured generic versions:
I priced them in build-to-order configurations sold directly by the manufacturers so I could customize them to match the MacBook when possible
In other words, when there's a generic laptop that has higher specs than the Apple, and priced lower under the usual deals that e.g. Dell does (40+% discount), it is expressly ignored.
When you manipulate the data like that, you can prove anything.
Macbook Pro (Score:2, Insightful)
No Firewire, so I'm not buying it....What are some good alternatives?
Macbook Pro. That was easy.
What do you really need Firewire for, if you are otherwise OK with a Macbook?
Re:Seriously flawed... (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it more expensive than a high-end Windows machine? Not really.
Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense.
Does Apple offer $500 laptops? Nope.
Ergo, Apple is expensive.
Yes, but they are also not cheap.
Re:the big diff (Score:3, Insightful)
I honestly don't get the debate. Either buy it or don't. But this issue/whining comes so frequently, I have to wonder if its from people who want to get one but can't afford it, can't talk their boss/SO into it, or just too cheap.
From my experience -- It is mostly from Mac owners trying to justify the money spent.
Re:Seriously flawed... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, apple is expensive. But the question was -- are apple taxing you for buying their brand. Answer no -- you get the high end kit, and you pay market rate for it, if you don't want high end kit, don't buy a Mac.
Re:You've been owned (Score:5, Insightful)
OSX is what userland Linux should be. It's secure enough. And there is a culture of user-centricity amongst the application developers. That's the special Mac aura - to me.
The keyboards are really good, too. I love that spacing between the keys - the margin of error is built-in, so that you can type faster and still avoid hitting the neighbouring key. Stuff like being able to write appx 10% faster is also the "marginal" utility of a Mac.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:2, Insightful)
Making a 1 on 1 specs comparison between Mac and PC is unfair in my opinion.
Once yo install Vista and anti virus software, the PC is easily outperformed by a Mac with the same specs.
If instead you choose XP, you get the usual speed bumps, like when you disconnect the ethernet cable and the OS is attempting to use the connection. Not to mention the AV software which is still there.
Add a virus that you could get through a pendrive to the mix, and the performance difference grows more.
Don't want to sound like a Mac fanboi, but I've been using both for quite some time now, and I'm always surprised by how much the OS and software you run can influence your overall experience.
Lenovo wins on the keyboard/mouse. (Score:3, Insightful)
The Thinkpad has pretty much always had the best keyboard in a laptop, ever since Toshiba quit putting full-sized keys in their Satellites. Apple's keyboards have never been great, but they peaked with the Extended II keyboard just before Jobs came back and since the iMac and blue-and-white G3 Apple's keyboards have been downright horrible, to the point where I have to use an external keyboard with my Macbook Pro to avoid physical pain.
And Apple's passive-aggressive refusal to just put two goddam buttons on their mice and trackpads is worth about a million points against them.
Advantage Lenovo.
Well the guy was reaching (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, how many categories did he need? I guess he wanted ads.
The problem is, that for the target market it is horribly overpriced. This guy had to go out of his way to ignore all the similarly TARGETED machines that you can find in your Sunday circular for $500 to $800. Some of them even have discreet graphics at that price.
Better yet, everyone knows Dell is always on sale. You can find deals on any laptop maker other than Apple.
The real Mac tax is found when comparing targeted audience. In other words, the people who would love to have a laptop for light work. This the audience Apple misses completely by pricing themselves out of consideration.
I could probably find half a dozen laptops that would serve just as well, if not with more features, but they wouldn't look cool.
(fwiw I own an iMac, 2nd gen iPod, and 2nd gen Touch, and am awaiting the next gen iMac to come out)
I'll keep paying the tax, if thats what its called (Score:3, Insightful)
Resale value... (Score:3, Insightful)
Has anyone checked the price of Apple machines seen over several years? Try to sell a cheap PC notebook after a few years and do the same with a MacBook. You will see that there may be a "Mac tax" but it also applies to used machines.
And I've seen many people being cheap with their notebooks and really regretting it very soon. Paying a bit more hurts only once but using a crappy notebook hurts every day.
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:2, Insightful)
http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA867LL/A
I ask you--why is it that at a $1300 dollar price point, I can get a USED Macbook Pro with 1 gig of RAM, 128 megs of VRAM, and 120 gigs of HDD space, and then turn around and get a Dell Studio with the same screen size, three times the HDD space, three times the RAM, and double the VRAM, BRAND NEW for less?
Re:I also like this (Score:5, Insightful)
All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.
Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...
Re:the big diff (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well, someone paid a tax (Score:4, Insightful)
I laugh more when I walk into a computer store and look at all the plastic PC laptops. Nothing wrong with being cheap and functional, of course, but some of those laptops try too hard with silly designs because they have no eye for detail.
Re:In fact (Score:4, Insightful)
So in summary: yes, there is a "Mac tax"
Only if you're enough a moron to buy additional RAM or HDD space from the OEM as opposed to an online or mail order retailer - as any Mac user over the last 30 years could tell you.
Re:You've been owned (Score:3, Insightful)
I take it you're one of those people who think that usability means "stupid people can use it"?
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:5, Insightful)
So people will think it's an extra good purchase right now and think they have to hurry up and buy now and feel happy with their purchase because they got "such a good price"? Quite obvious isn't it?
The question is why Apple don't offer anything on 7 month old laptops.
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple don't discount because they don't have to. Seriously - check out eBay. People are selling G4 laptops for close on $1,000. With new line out now, that will drop I hope, but to answer your question - there's no reason to discount. Macs live for a long time and just keep working. I service my sister in laws Mac G4 and except for a memory upgrade, I've done nothing to it - and it runs OSX 10.4 like a champ. Say what you like, Apple have an excellent value proposition.
Re:Is Apple trying to kill their own tech? (Score:3, Insightful)
the coming surge of hard disk recorders is a raging joke. Most use a freaking strange format to record in. JVC uses the bizzare mpeg2/mpeg4 hybrid called TOD... WTF is that? sony is using a strange mpeg4 format as well.
All of these mean you get the files on your pc and then spend 12 hours converting them to a format that can be edited. yeah I saved a lot of time.... NOT.
plus the sustained transfer rate of usb2 cant even touch that of firewire 400 so it still wins.
Re:Well, someone paid a tax (Score:4, Insightful)
You have to get out more. The notion that "every man" is a shallow, childish consumer-bot who has sexual feelings for a chunk of metal and plastic (don't forget the glass!) is really sad.
The last time I had "a wet stain on my pants and said in a low tone..."I must have this"" is the first time my wife kissed me.
Lumpy, I can understand the appreciation of good design, but for me the most important part of great design is the ability to offer the product at a reasonable price.
Considering that a lot of people are having some serious financial problems at the moment, not only here in the 'States but worldwide, I'd think that it might be time for a little re-evaluation of the importance of the objects we desire.
Lumpy, you have to try to find other ways to feel good about yourself in front of the "suits". You will find in life that the pleasure achieved from making others "stare" is fleeting and ultimately hollow. Your self-worth should not derive from something you can buy because at some point (probably soon) you will have maxed out your Visa and it's going to be harder to get those bumps in credit that the banks have been so happy to dole out to us over the years to make up for the fact that our real income has been stagnant. You simply have to find something inside yourself that creates a sense of pride and self-worth. I'm sure if you really really look (really) you'll see that there are good enough, smart enough and darnit, people like you. Probably.
Now come here and let me give you a hug, Lumpy.
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Design items... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Seriously flawed... (Score:3, Insightful)
Suits me perfectly. I never use either.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sigh... (Score:3, Insightful)
One trip over a cord with magsafe will be worth that.
One trip over a cord without magsafe? Cost: one new laptop.
Those standards may amaze you (Score:5, Insightful)
From Apple's Macbook mini-site:
All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.
Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...
There's at least two things they are referring to.
1) Snow Leopard will support OpenCL. You might say well so what, eventually my Dell will to, after all that's what Open means. True, but look at the architecture in the macs. They elimiated the Northbridge and the Bus chips. The CPU now connects directly to the GPU.
If you have ever tried to program an NVIDIA GPU for computational work you know that the slow step is shuttling the data back to the CPU. So having OpenCL with an insanley fast bus means that standard is going to actually be useful.
2) the Open HD video connector.
on the new macs, running H264 high def has dropped processor utilization from 100% to 20%, presumbaly because of the NVIDIA chip. So now streaming HD is going to be a reality and will actually exist for the mac world. And TVs that support the Open HD are becoming available.
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:5, Insightful)
He didn't even count the magsafe connection for the power adaptor, so my count would put it at 14. So, instead of just called them the same specs, how about you actually point out why this guy spec comparison is wrong? But no, unsubstantiated assertions are insightful as long as you're bashing Apple, Microsoft or Google here at slashdot.
And you know something? I've used/administered several Dells -- they're $400 cheaper for a reason, it's called QA/QC and Dells lack it in my experience. Average lifetime of a Dell 3-5 years maybe with better luck on the monitors. Average lifetime of my Apple machines: 5-6 years. This is counting all warrantied replacement parts as included in the lifetime.
Re:One big difference: discounts. (Score:3, Insightful)
As ususal, asking the wrong question (Score:5, Insightful)
As usual the article and the commentaries ask and answer completely the wrong question.
The interesting question is NOT whether, if you take a Mac spec as your starting point, you can duplicate it for less elsewhere from another vendor. The answer is usually, no, not very much, and sometimes it costs more. Which tells us just about nothing about suitability of product or value for money.
The interesting question is whether, if you are looking for a computer, you can find a better value choice better suited to your needs from the Mac range or from other vendors ranges.
You almost always can. The reason is, the paucity of price points and specification points in the Mac range. This results in Macs being an overpriced or underfeatured choice for most people most of the time.
This leads to a simple conclusion. For most people, most of the time, the Mac product is going to be overpriced. For most people, the other vendor product is going to offer better value. Which is quite compatible with the proposition that for any given point in the Mac range, its hard or impossible to duplicate it for much less. This was however never the issue.
The Mac range is not the starting point for comparisons, any more than the Louis Vuitton range is. How one wishes people would stop pretending that it is.
Re:Another big difference: performance. (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed you notice the performance hit under Windows after some time. In regards to OS X, what I really do like is it's responsiveness. Even if it sometimes isn't exactly the fastest thing on earth, with the latest version of it I always feel it very responsive and quick to acknoledge my actions.
I recently switched my gf to Mac, she is a designer. The reason for the switch was that every time Windows slowed down for her (an average user) she couldn't install it back on her own. She was really afraid of using Macs, but fortunately, she found it easy to learn the basic concepts, and is now using it full time. I am really glad I won't need to be installing Windows again in 6 months :D
In any case, I do realize that OS X isn't perfect. It may not be the most secure sistem either. But I believe that there's no discussion that it requires less maintenance for the average user today. Today is all that matters today. If things change, I'll see other options.
Let me get the cluestick... (Score:1, Insightful)
Dang, have to post anon cause I've been moderating here. (Not just pro-mac anti-ms mind you..;P.. )
Ok, always assume you are as stupid/as smart as the general masses. There has to be a reason for the "stupid behaviour" you witnessed. Let's see if you can justify the same stupid desission.
What was the main difference between the old and new macs? The architecture. How did the MacOS handle INtel/PPC compatibility? Through the Rosetta Stone technology which translated instructions PPC <--> Intel. Were the PRO APPS (tm), like CS2 suite, translated/optimized for Intel? No. Did this RS translation give a performance hit? Yes. Then what hardware was best suited for performance and efficiency for the PRO USERS (tm)? __ <- fill in blank. Profit!
And the oblig URL: http://photoshopnews.com/2006/01/20/editorial-should-the-macbook-pro-have-waited-for-photoshop/
My personal summary (Score:5, Insightful)
I was always convinced of the Mac tax on their laptops.
Then I owned one. I didn't want it at first. I didn't lust after it.
Now I am convinced that there is no Mac tax. I happen to know that I'm immune to the idea that I'm a fanboi suffering from post-purchase justification. I just know that once you own one, if you had the Mac tax issue, you lose it. Quickly. Completely. Forever.
Then your next laptop will be a Mac. And you'll recommend them. And you'll probably try to explain something in a post that might not be easily explained.