Recovering Moldy Electronics? 512
cookiej writes "We just completed having our basement gutted and our house decontaminated from mold. The finished basement is gone, my office floor has been removed as well as 24' of drywall around the base of the room. So, we had a full home theater downstairs along with a couple of computers in the electronics closet that were completely immersed (rainwater, not sewage). We moved them to a sheltered area outside and covered them with a plastic tarp. Since the electronics were off when the water hit them, 1) do I have a chance of recovering them? 2) If so, is there a way to clean them with some sort of liquid bath that would not damage the electronics? and 3) I don't want to bring moldy pieces back in the clean house. How could I decontaminate the electronics themselves, pre-bath? Not looking to save the speakers, just the amp, DirecTV box, video switch, etc. Thanks for any help, here, Slashdot." Read on for more details of this reader's plight.
Early last month, we had about 10" of rain in the course of two hours. Many houses in our neighborhood were damaged. We had rainwater coming in our back door and cascading down the basement steps. We have two sump pumps that weren't keeping up (and of course, no battery backup) and as the water rose in the basement, it was getting dangerously close to the breaker panel. So I made the hard decision to shut down the main power and we got the hell out.
The water reached about 6' in the basement before it drained out. Once we got back, we could not move fast enough to get all the debris out before mold set in and boy did it.
Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate. While I would love to just go out and buy replacements, there are far more pressing things to re-buy (washer/dryer, furnace, water heater, etc.) and if there is a chance I can salvage some of this it might be a nice change of luck.
There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
If they were not plugged in they can be dried out and probably used again. I've never seen mold growing on electronics, but if you have mold/mildew you can wash them with a mild bleach/water solution. After they are clean flush them with distilled water and let them dry completely.
Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Pure rubbing alcohol might be your best best.
I'd try... (Score:2, Informative)
...Isopropyl Alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol. It's cheap (1$/pt?) and should sanitize your gear nicely. Given the size of the job, you might get a few gallons and dunk your gear.
Alcohol (Score:1, Informative)
Cheap solution would be some pure alcohol, clean the boards with that, dry it, and hope for the best. You can get actual PCB cleaners, but some of that may end up costing more than it's worth. Depending on how long it was wet, etc, you might have a chance to salvage some of it. Most boards, ICs and solid parts may be fine, electrolytic capacitors, hard drives, etc may become waterlogged.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
"Completely" is the key phrase. Damage to electronics due to water is actually due to unexpected circuits forming and burning out components.
So if it looks dry, wait another couple of days.
rubbing alcohol (Score:4, Informative)
Distilled water is your freind (Score:5, Informative)
I was recently able to recover a number of computers that had been in a fire and had been sprayed with water from a fire hose. They were a mess, but so far they all work (10 months and counting)
Re:I'd try... (Score:3, Informative)
Electronic baths (Score:5, Informative)
Water can be used to clean electronics in manufacturing processes. Most electronic components will not be damaged by water. Make sure you get all the dirt and grim out.
1.Don't plug it yet.
2. Take all electronics completely apart. Look for damage or corrosion.
3. Remove every battery.
4. Flush it out with distilled water.
5. Use electronic cleaner or alcohol(not the stuff you drink) to remove any mineral deposits.
6. Dry off with paper towel.
7. Let it dry completely. If you have any doubts wait till it's completely dry.
8. Plug it in and cross your fingers.
They're cleanable. (Score:5, Informative)
Start with a rinse with distilled water. There's very little in electronics that gets hurt by water anyway -- the issues are with it shorting out, or longer term, corrosion. You'll want to open all the cases to do this, and then ideally blow them dry with a compressed air nozzle. Letting it evaporate will just redeposit all the crud you cleaned off.
Then rinse with alcohol, and again blow it off rather than letting it dry. At this point, if it looks clean it is, as far as the electronics are concerned. I imagine the same is true from a mold standpoint, but you probably know more about that than I do.
If things are being really stubborn, an ultrasonic cleaning bath in alcohol is remarkably effective (and completely safe for the electronics). 5-10 minutes should be plenty. I don't know off hand where to find a large one cheaply, though -- that may take some investigation. If you can't borrow one, I'd just take some warm soapy water and a toothbrush and work at it by hand (and then repeat the distilled water and alcohol rinses to remove any soap and such).
If any of these things have moving parts (eg DVD player) they'll be more difficult. None of this will hurt anything, but if there are any gears that are supposed to be greased this will remove that. Some rubber in pulleys and such might not like the alcohol. But, most modern cheap moving parts are unlubricated nylon, so there isn't likely to be an issue. Cooling fans are usually unlubricated, either with a plain nylon bearing or ball bearings, and so should be ok with this cleaning treatment.
Similarly, hard drives are almost certainly a lost cause. I'd try powering them up, but if they've been underwater then the water likely got in through the pressure equalization holes. I wouldn't clean them (wipe down the outside with a damp sponge, but nothing more aggressive) -- just hope for the best and expect them to have died.
Good luck, and may I suggest you invest in a more serious pump?
distilled water heat and alcohol (Score:3, Informative)
As another poster has mentioned, if there are now dissolved minerals permeating the circuitry you are probably out of luck.
Here's what you can try if you are feeling brave.
Get some DISTILLED WATER. Clean the electronics thoroughly. The more you can take things apart and get to the nooks and crannies the better.
Now the hard part. To drive off the water you will need a nice dry enclosure which can be heated to a relatively high temperature, say 130-140 deg F or so. The upper temperature depends on the plastic materials used, if it gets too hot they will start to deform. Watch carefully.
Leave things heated for at least 2-4 hours.
Now go back over things with 90% + isopropyl alcohol (it might be hard to find - do NOT use the 70% stuff).
Why this might not work : the "dissolved" materials which have stuck to the PCB and components do not get washed off completely. They are still present and when you hit the power something shorts - bright lights and probably a decent badda-boom.
The exposure which the electronics have already experienced have more than likely started corroding the potentiometers, i.e. volume, bass, etc.. controls. So even if things power up they may not work correctly.
Finally, if you can't take things apart and expose the PCBs and a good portion of the components, then your chances of success are very low. However if you can really get at the compenents this method will work.
Good luck !
REMEMBER, IF YOU TRY THIS BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN IT COMES TIME TO FLIP THE POWER ON. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU GET ELECTROCUTED.
Re:The home theater all got wet? (Score:5, Informative)
One of the ugly little things about homeowner's insurance (at least in the US) is that it, by default, does not cover damage due to flooding.
Many people who don't live in an area where floods are a real likelihood don't buy the extra flood insurance, which is probably the case here ("Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate.")
I learned the hard way a year or two ago exactly what "flood" means in insurance terms. It includes a flooded basement due to a failed sump pump. Fortunately in my case, the only loss was some 20-year-old carpet.
So here's my little PSA: Even if you don't live somewhere that can really "flood" in a traditional sense, buy flood insurance if you have a basement. At least the minimal "get the mold out" insurance.
I am an insurance restoration contractor (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, we remove mold from electronics all the time. We use either an ozone machine or ultrasonic cleaning as demonstrated by this link.
http://www.arsmitigations.com/Electronics_Restoration.php
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Bleach (chlorine) is a very bad idea. It will oxidize the metals very badly. Chlorine is incredibly corrosive.
Better to use a pure non-oil based solvent such as denatured alcohol (pure alcohol). Remember, nothing oil based like acetone or gasoline. Rubbing alcohol contains a lot of water so it's not best either.
Dishwasher? (Score:3, Informative)
The priority is (Score:3, Informative)
Getting all the mold out of them -- the second priority is having them work again.
Steps;
-- well away from any sparks or flame (ie NO SMOKING :-)
1: Disassemble completely
2: Immerse everything in wd40 -- wd stands for water displacer -- this will make absolutely sure there is no water at all left on them. Agitate in the wd40. (you can buy wd40 by the gallon)
3: Rinse with as pure ethyl alcohol/rubbing alcohol as you can find -- closest to 100%. Use plenty -- scrub with a toothbrush at this point to remove anything stubborn. This should remove anything not removed by the wd40, and will remove all the wd40 too.
4: Immerse in a second pure alcohol bath that you try to keep clean -- ie use a different bucket than step 3 -- try to get everything off in step 3.
The alcohol will evaporate quickly, leaving everything dry quite soon with no residue (the two rinse steps help with this).
-- at this point, I'd be quite surprised if there was any mold or dirt or oils of any kind left on anything.
4:Reassemble
5:Plug it in and hope for the best -- if it doesn't work, toss it in the trash.
This procedure will not work for anything with any unsealed lubricated moving parts, as it will remove *all* of of the lubrication.
It will also likely cloud any transparent plastics.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Where are you getting your information? Once in college I spilled Coke onto a motherboard (not plugged in fortunately). I cleaned with pure rubbing alcohol. I let it sit for a day, and plugged it in. It worked fine.
Rubbing alcoholic has the advantage of evaporating completely away rather quickly. So unless you can point me to a source that says otherwise, rubbing alcohol is fine.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:2, Informative)
Flux wash is the answer for washing the PCBs. The entire idea of flux wash is to wash leftover flux from the PCB after soldering the components on. It also removes most other dirt and grease as well. It's designed to be used on PCBs that are already populated, to the point where with (some, not this one) washes it can be used with the circuit POWERED!
You can buy it in a spray can at a real electronics store (hint: It won't have the words radio or shack in its name) for ~$10.
(Most flux wash is 99% IPA, BTW).
Re:Corrosion is inevitable. (Score:1, Informative)
It depends on how long the items were submersed, and the purity of the water in which they were submersed. No doubt there will be some degradation, but it is not automatic that light corrosion translates into destroyed equipment. Given that the equipment was off you have a hope. Rainwater is good in that it is pure. The fact that it contained minerals washed out of the soil is not so good.
First you need to wash all the muck off and gently flush all the crevices out. Ideally use deionised water, but if that's too expensive (keep in mind the cost of the equipment you are saving), use distilled water or water as pure as your budget allows. If you have the budget use pure water for all the washing, though if you need to save money use clean water for washing and once it is clean finish off with an immediate good flush with the purest water you can afford. A burst of ultrasonic cleaning may help but it is not essential and don't go too mad with it in case you cause damage.
You then need to get everything absolutely dry. The longer it is wet the more corrosion you get. Start with gently absorbing as much water as possible (gently touching with a paper towel?) to minimise the volume of water which will evaporate and leave residue. Leave the equipment to dry for as long as possible (weeks?) ideally at an elevated temperature. I'd think "light bulb in a box" type temperatures.
The critical thing is to move as fast as possible to get the electronics clean and dry. I was once involved with the unintentional submersion of a multi-million dollar radar system in muddy water. If it had been drained and washed straight away it would have been okay. As it was they took the "cautious" (arse covering) approach and held endless meetings and investigations into the best way to recover it. By the time the underground bunker was drained the radar was destroyed.
Re:They're cleanable. (Score:2, Informative)
Good luck, and may I suggest you invest in a more serious pump?
You may. A suggestion I will follow when we rebuild the basement. Although we have TWO pumps, I intend to add a third, that HAS a backup battery. This was a catastrophic storm, as I said previous, worst in 135 years.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
I use MG Chemicals Super Wash Cat# 406B-425G [mgchemicals.net] for cleaning most PCBs. The important thing to consider is if the electronics are new enough and worth saving it probably as BGA components that water will lurk under for weeks. This chemical can has 3 power settings and setting it to HI with the straw will push the residual water out. I have recovered many water soaked laptops using this and failing to get under the BGAs will lead to failure later on.
$15 per can at your local Fry's
UV lights (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Corrosion is inevitable. (Score:5, Informative)
Look for a product called Corrosion X.
It's somewhat like WD-40. It is non-conductive and can be sprayed directly on electronics. It forms a hydrophobic barrier between the electronics and the elements and may help.
It is typically used as a preventative. Often used in the aviation market to protect wing/fuselage interiors, it is also sprayed directly on avionics to reduce corrosion.
It's cheap and is worth a shot.
Re:The home theater all got wet? (Score:5, Informative)
You had water up to the celing to get your projector and all the gear in the rack as well? Holy crap how about replacing the electrical panels as well as the furnace, ac and other things forst..
If you re-read the original post, you'll see that those things are of course on our list. We had the electrical panel dried out, taken apart and inspected by an electrician.
The water didn't actually reach the ceiling. It got up to about 6' which was close to (like within 3-4 inches) the bulk of my networking equipment (router, one of my UPSes, Apple Airport and the cable modem) but just missed.
Or are you calling a best buy TV and stereo a "home theater" if you did not have a projector, screen sound control on the walls, and a real integrated sound system you did not have a "home theater".
I find it cute when people call their TV and cheapie stereo a home theater.
P.S. if your surround sound decoder cost less than $3500.00 it's a cheapie toy.
Well, I've been upgrading parts here and there over the years. We had a Zektor HDMI switcher that swapped between the computers, the PS3 and the DirecTV. Had a Slingbox pro that piped stuff upstairs through the 1GB network. An older Panasonic AE700U projector projecting on a home-built 102" screen. Truly, the amp was a cheapie but the speakers were klipsch and the sub was an old NHT Sub-One. I had a Philips Pronto that I used to control the DirecTV, lights and the switcher, but no in-wall controls, so I guess it doesn't meet your criteria for a "true" home theater. *eyerolls*
Also, why waste your time, simply collect on your insurance and buy all new. You had homeowners insurance right?
Yes, of course. However if you read your fine print, you'll see that you can't buy flood insurance in the US from your insurance company unless you are in a flood plain (this is what I was told when I asked about it awhile back). If you want to get flood insurance, you need to get it through a federal program. Again, re-read the original post.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:1, Informative)
Wrong. I built and repaired circuit cards for five years. Fixed everything from XBox's to radar systems and land mine detectors, with every problem from too much dust inside to getting having been hit by an IED. We used isopropyl alcohol and a small brush for everything, and wiped the residue off with chemwipes.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, you want to do a little more than "completely". If you use a bleach/water solution as suggested, the little drops will leave deposits of conductive material. RINSE thoroughly with distilled water, and use a hair dryer to blow as much of the distilled water off as possible. Any deposit left from water evaporating is going to kill whatever electronics you own when you plug them in.
As a preventive measure, once it's all clean and squeaky like that, maybe spray a coat of polyurethane or some other waterproofing stuff that's non-conductive onto all parts that could conduct and aren't supposed to.
Good luck!
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:5, Informative)
You can get some pretty good 99% isopropyl from any good pharmacy (ask for it) or computer store (I get mine from Altex, it's $8 a bottle..). While it's good for cleaning things like keyboards (because it'll cut through grease like a hot knife through butter) it does have some nasty side effects like being able to etch the anti-reflective coating off LCD panels, taking the silkscreening off of PCBs etc. :)
It shouldn't really damage tin solder or chip packages but who knows. You're probably better off with distilled water and bleach for mold. Maybe give it a wash with isopropyl afterwards, but use the 50-70% cheap stuff. The idea is that isopropyl is a solvent - therefore things will dissolve in it including all the crud. But too strong a solvent and you'll eat into the PCB and any components that aren't up to it.
Re:There is hope (Score:2, Informative)
Not necessarily. Denatured alcohol has long been used to clean mold off of sensitive materials such as leather.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:5, Informative)
We use CMOS grade IPA (95% Rubbing alcohol) to clean boards all the time. Works a treat.
Buy a couple gallons from a chem supply company and a handful of *hogs hair* brushes (not metal brushes, obviously, and not nylon, not so obviously)
If you can't order from a supply company, then you will spend more, but get either 99% IPA or 190 proof everclear from the drugstore and soft bristle toothbrushes. Go to town, be sure to lightly soak the board under components to flush out residual water.
Bake cleaned boards under some 60-100 watt desk lights for a day or two (close enough to feel that the boards get warm) or in your oven at 110deg C for about 90 minutes (door open).
-nB
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Used to clean TV sets with a few buckets of distilled water, then throw a 20W incandescent inside and leave it for a week to dry.
Fixing wet electronics (Score:1, Informative)
Wet electronics, can be repaired most of the time.
Things to check for, corrosion on contact points, this can be cleaned using "Deoxit" and a toothbrush. I have repaired professional sound equipment left in the rain, 90% of the time the issues are found on connections.
make sure its dry, really dry. after you let it dry for a while. wait a few more days and let it dry more.
best of luck
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Let me add to these other ideas a product named "Corrosion Block" (for the marine industry) and/or "ACF 50" (for aviation). Despite the different names, the product itself is the exact same thing, and works wonders on electronics that have been, or will be getting, wet. You can find it in most boating stores. Spray on a thin film, clean the electronics, let them dry thoroughly. A little goes a long way. The only caveat is that due to its ability/nature to "creep" over time (a good thing, it ensures even coverage), you want to use it sparingly around LCD displays so that it doesn't get inside. Living on a boat, I have had plenty of opportunity (too much!) to do what it is that you are having to do. :) Good luck!
Know anyone who works for an Elec Mfg (Score:2, Informative)
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
How the hell does water get *under* a BGA? The surface tension should keep it out.
The gap is tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.
How the hell does water get *into* a sponge? The surface tension should keep it out. The holes are tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.
suggestions... (Score:2, Informative)
It all depends on several factors (Score:2, Informative)
not as completely powered off as you think (Score:3, Informative)
Most PCs now have bios batteries. Some are very hard to get to too. (macbook for example, UNDER the logic board) We get people that bring in things like that which got a drink spilled in them and told us they instantly removed the battery. It probably helped, but didn't save it. Water + electricity =. electrolysis, and that's a great way to grow shorts.
Water can be very hard to get out of modern electronics. Surface mount chip packages can hold water for weeks or months underneath them, and the closely spaced pins wick water like you would not believe. If you place a drop of water on the edge of a surface chip like that, the drop will just shrink and disappear, as it's sucked down under the chip. Getting that back out is just as hard as you can imagine.
You can try to bake the electronics, but you really have to watch the temperature. Lots of plastics in there. I've tossed around ideas like taking a big can of desiccant (like in the "do not eat" packets) and an airtight bag and let it sit that way under a sun lamp for a few days. The idea is the heat doesn't actually remove the water, it just helps keep the humidity mobile. The desiccant WILL pull the humidity out of the air which the warmth has helped free up, and lock it away. Moving air inside the bag would probably speed the process. Remember, more heat isn't necessarily better. Dryer IS pretty much always better. (hope your caps are sealed well...) It's not the heat that dries it out, it's the difference in humidity. (a process accelerated by heat and movement of air)
Certain things just plain can't be saved. LCD panels wick water into the panel, and there's no easy getting that out without actually disassembling the panel (LCD / polarizers / light spreader / etc) But that's more of a cosmetic thing than functional, so if you don't mind the weird effect it has on the panel, ok for you.
Home electronics don't often have a bios battery, but many have "supercaps" - high farad count capacitors that keep your settings alive for a few days if power is removed. Those work just like batteries, creating electrolysis in the presence of water. They're soldered down and usually tucked away, so not easy to unplug either.
Anything with a motor in it is going to be trouble to get water out of. Copper windings can trap water for a very long time. Wire wound and thin film pots can be greatly affected by corrosion and are usually sealed just well enough to hold in water but discourage drying out.
Even water that appears to be clean can bring in other problems. Grit and light film can form in places it does not belong, interfering with optical gates, clouding lenses in your optical disk players, etc. Optical pots can get their optics clouded or blocked.
Good luck. I doubt much you do will make a difference at this point - most of your gear was doomed from day 1. Most of what you manage to save probably didn't need your help to survive. (you didn't make a difference) But you can try - just don't blow too much time or expense in vain.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Oops, should have included a link:
http://www.nocorrosion.com/corrosion-control.htm [nocorrosion.com]
It's easy... (Score:3, Informative)
1) Get you some high-grade isopropyl alcohol (not the wussy 70% stuff -- the 97% stuff they use in cleanrooms)
2) Put it in a tub
3) Rinse your electronics in it -- vigorously, but briefly
4) Let dry for a couple of days (to play it safe)
And, voila! It should all just work. Maybe. DO NOTE: this stuff is flammable like nobody's business. Don't do this in an enclosed area, and don't do it if there's any chance of sparks.
P.S. If rust has set in, ain't much that's gonna fix that.
P.P.S. YMMV, etc.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, I've found one of the best things to use is desiccant. It will provide an absolute zero moisture environment. Simply put some in the bottom of a bucket, then a layer of paper towel, then the electronics.
If you want to re-use the desiccant you can put it in the oven. When it comes out, it will be one piece (no longer powder), but you can break it up pretty easily (like chalk).
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
That lurking moisture is why pure alcohol is so important. Alcohol will not dry water but it will sneak about and displace water so that a fan can dry the parts out. Simply repeat the dunking in alcohol a couple of times and the blowing out with a fan. You can ask your local pharmacist for pure alcohol and explain why you need it.
I used to use under water metal detectors and those critters are known to flood now and then. In salt water time is an even greater factor but usually those circuits could be saved by a quick flushing with fresh water followed by drowning them in pure alcohol and blowing them out.
Re:There is hope (Score:2, Informative)
There is a cheaper method to be had.
I work for a major manufacturer. We use a water based batch cleaning system to remove water soluble flux, however the same could apply to the original poster's case.
Cleaning With Water:
1. Disassemble all of the components until you have bare PCB's.
2. Put them in a dish washer, without any soup.
If you look at most industrial circuit board batch cleaners you will notice that they are based around simple dish washers. Just make sure that the spray wands hit the board surface, and have a clear line of sight.
3. Take them out, and spray them down with a compressed air gun. Similar to one you will find at any shop. Make sure that it has a water catcher or the compressor at least has a dryer in line with the compressor.
Cleaning with IPA:
1. You can optionally clean the PCB with IPA. I would recommend going with industrial grade IPA, SMT grade is over kill, especially for what you are doing.
2. Fill a small pan with IPA, and put the circuit board into the pan. Move the pan back and forth, creating a wave with the IPA bath, so that it flows over the circuit board.
3. Once done, empty the IPA in the container, and fill it up with some clean IPA. Than drop the circuit board in and repeat. This will be your rinse step.
4. To dry simply use a compressed air gun, or let it evaporate. IPA will evaporate faster than water and will leave fewer residues behind. Further clean IPA has a higher resistance rating than water, or MG Chemicals Super Wash Cat#406B-425G and is tons cheaper.
*Solvents are commonly used in de-fluxing a PCB after manufacturing. Ionics are your enemy since they can cause corrosion on the leads, and create dendrites which could possibly cause shorts. Therefore sticking to IPA might be easier, unless you have access to DI Water.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
There's where you went wrong. A bleach solution of 200ppm (parts per million) is sufficient to kill molds,yeasts, and any kind of odor causing bacteria. It's unlikely to have any affect on metals if rinsed. It's even safe to drink if you don't over do it. A 50/50 mix is used specifically for its oxidizing properties. Like making your undies *really* white.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
It is called Capillary Action [wikipedia.org] my friend. That surface tension you were talking about, actually causes the water to be sucked into small gaps like this. It only works if the attraction between water molecules is less than the attraction between water and external material.
Mild Soap, Clean Water, thorough drying and ... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:There is hope (Score:1, Informative)
Ok,
I worked in the videogame industry in the boom years, the boards that ran the games were often "somehow" coated in various fluids...(ya) My personal fave was coke/pepsi, it's way more corrosive than even salt water.
Anyway,
I would take the boards and immerse them in hot (not too hot to have my hands in) water and use a natural bristle brush and this thin green soap that foamed like all get out, I think that any soap that is of neutral PH should be OK. Then scrub, rinse repeat. I'd rinse them thoroughly with running hot water then dry them completely using compressed air. I'd inspect the area around, and under the chips under magnification. If I found anything I'd have to start over. Sometimes it would take a couple of tries because of having to dissolve the sugar.
Anyway once it was actually clean and _completely_ dry they always worked again. Out of probably 50 times I had to do this, I had to do component level repair on a board perhaps twice.
Mind, these boards cost $600 to $2000 and this was SOP so if it hadn't worked well we wouldn't have done it.
If you don't have a source of dry compressed air I would buy one, however I think the 95%+ alcohol would help insure it was completely dry but I've never done it that way.
If you DO have air, be most through (and careful) around the connectors, many of them have surprisingly large voids on their undersides that can hold water.
Good luck!
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
True. When you can deliver a relatively dry air flow to every damp critical crevice of the wet parts, a fan will be more efficient.
I wasn't interested in disassembling the cell phone to the CB level, then fussing with alligator clamps stuck into chunks of modeling clay to position each circuit board and other piece in just-so good alignment with a fan's air stream. Plus the time lost to all that fussing and re-assembly has to be factored into any measure of efficiency. So when I found that the sandwich grade ziplock bag had not been the water proof cell phone protector that I had expected, the cell phone went into the warm oven, which took less than 30 seconds to set up, and I went on to other activities.
So rather than attempting to simulate an ideal high tech wind tunnel, I chose to simulate a primordial desert rock baking under a hot Sun. Appropriate technology and all that.
BTW, one quart freezer grade ziplock bags cost little more than the sandwich bags, and are a lot more effective at waterproofing cell phones, wallets, small cameras, and similar items that the novice kayaker should worry about.
Water removal != mold removal (Score:4, Informative)
I've read a lot of people with great advice on removing water and even sea water. They've got a lot more expertise than I do, although I find their stories interesting to read.
The OP mentions mold. As a resident of central Texas, I think I can safely say that mold is evil. Once you get a little, it's really hard to get rid of it all, and any mold infestation will have serious health implications in the short and long term. I realize that it may be painfully expensive, but if you suspect any mold on anything, you should either quarantine it until you can thoroughly kill it or just trash it. A basement with two sump pumps suggests to me that it's not a typically dry place. If this is the case, you're in pretty rough shape structurally -- I hope you can afford a good mold removal service. If there's any delay while you save up money or have to wait for service availability, get a good dehumidifier for the affected spaces and make sure that it either drains properly or is emptied regularly. Cutting down the humidity will hinder further mold growth, although it shouldn't harm what you already have.
Mold is evil. A little leads to a lot. Kill 99.9% of it, and that last 0.1% will grow a hundredfold while you recover from the effort of killing 99.9% of it.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Denatured alcohol is mostly isopropyl
Well, no, last I looked it was mostly ethyl (i.e., neutral grain spirits, i.e. yum)... Rubbing alch is isopropyl.
with methanol added to make it undrinkable
Isopropanol doesn't need much help [wikipedia.org] in that category.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
I've not used that on electronics, but I did use it on an old car I had. Kept the "check engine" light out from a short in the wiring harness under the hood. I only used "corrosion block" every 6 months to a year or so. Got it at West Marine. I was put onto it for this purpose by a mechanic who serviced the local bus fleet.
"T-9 Boeshield" is another product I have used in a similar manner. It leaves a film behind that is waxlike and can make a mess on glass and such. Works good for lubrication of moving parts around electrical though (power locks, same car) ...not sure about around optics in a drive. I got exuberant on the driver's side lock and took 3 or 4 tries with Windex to get the film off the glass.
There are also some products that are essentially isopropyl alcohol in a spray can. Careful that you don't strip coating off the circuits. Some coatings are natural shellac which is alcohol soluble. In that vein, stop at the drugstore and get a bottle of rubbing alcohol. Get the 97% not the 85%, yes it costs 2x as much, so that's $1.50 for a pint.
If you can't take this gear down to individual circuit board level, then there is little hope for it.
Disclaimer: I've never cleaned a full system, just components like keyboards, mice, and a portable CD player. Mold was minimal. The keyboards and mice were usually from coffee or soda, and the CD player I think was excessive dust. The CD player failed completely after a second cleaning about a year after the first. The keyboards still live, and one has been cleaned 3 or 4 times now. (college was hard on it)
Phil
Re:There is hope (Score:2, Informative)
Until 6 months ago, I was managing the production floor at an electronics manufacturing company, so I know a bit about this. (I left for a better job.)
What to do:
1. Open the case of the electronic device, and asses the condition of the PCA's. If the traces are corroded, you are probably too late, but you can still give it a whirl.
2. Use a natural hair scrub brush (Hog hair works really well) and scrub the surface of the board while holding the board under a stream of warm water. Tap water is OK so long as you don't have hard water. If you do, then still use warm water, but finish with distilled water. Unplug any connections, either board to board, or wire to board, and scrub and rinse those as well.
3. If there is corrosion on the board, scrub it all off, and check the integrity of the circuit traces with a DMM set to ohms or continuity. Repair with appropriatly sized wire. (appx 24 awg for signal, 18 awg for power is a good starting point.)
4. Use compressed air (make sure it is dessicated, and oil free if it is from a compressor) to blow off as much of the water as you can.
5. Place the components underneath a heat lamp, or blow the output from a space heater over the device. Let it set for a few hours.
6. Shake the device out, to make sure all of the water is gone. You should then place a sheet of ESD plastic on top to see if you get any condensation. If you do, keep the heat on. DO NOT LET IT GET ABOVE 150F!!!!! Anything above that is very bad for the solder joints and components.
7. Put the device back together. Check any moving parts for proper movement (Fans for instance). Replace if bad. Check potentiometers for function: Measure the resistance between the two outer pins. This is the max range of the pot. Now measure from one of the outside pins to the center pin. Turn the knob from one side to the other. At the extreme positions, you will see zero ohms, and the reading you got from measuring the two outside pins. Measure from the center pin to the other outside pin, your results will be exactly opposite if the pot is working properly. Replace with a pot with the same specifications if you don't get the proper results.
8. Power on the device, and check for functionality. If done properly, and if the electronics weren't wet for too long, then you should have fairly good luck with this. I have cleanded literally tens of thousands of boards this way, and it works perfectly.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
Where did you get that information - I've never heard that...? "PB Blaster" is a great product in it's own right, though. I've used it many many times.
Comparing the MSDS Sheets, they appear to be different compounds:
Lear Corp's "Corrosion Block" - http://www.nocorrosion.com/MSDS-1.pdf [nocorrosion.com]
Blaster Products "Corrosion Stop" - http://www.blasterchemical.com/images/msds/CSP-Aerosol-nov06.pdf [blasterchemical.com]
...but I'm no chemist, so they might well be using different names to describe the same materials.
Re:There is hope (Score:3, Informative)
I highly recommend against use of a hair dryer to dry out electronics, and in most cases, anything else, hair excepted. You are very likely to damage the device with concentrated heat.
The first thing you need to know is the normal level of relative humidity in you area. If it's reasonably low (ie not monsoon season) then all you need is air circulation, not heat.
I have recovered many water damaged items. A typical example would be full immersion of a digital camera, a rather challenging project due to it's high density, use of cements in lens elements, motor drives, etc.
Number one, no question whatsoever, is to remove the battery immediately after removal from the wet environment.
So, as for this particular problem, any device that has a battery and has sat for a day or more after immersion is probably toast and not worth the effort. These days, some rather surprising electronics contain batteries (to retain memory in power outages, for example); open them up and check thoroughly.
If there is a battery in it, it's probably "done for" right now. Only worth the recovery effort if you need data off the device; it won't live long even if you do get it up and running.
Corrosion begins the moment you remove an item from the wet environment and place it in an oxygen rich environment, like open air. In fact, broadly speaking, as long as the item is submerged it's fine.
Nikon, for example, if you call them about a camera that has been submerged accidentally, (besides the advice about batteries above) will recommend any camera that has been immersed remain in water until the moment it's technician examines it ... this means shipping the unit in water if necessary. The service department can then immediately apply the appropriate anti-corrosion solvent before any serious corrosion has a chance to start.
I normally don't send stuff to Nikon or anyone else for that matter; if you do expect a hefty bill (at least 3 figures, could be more) with no guarantees. Not worth it for most stuff.
But, I do remove the battery and then set the device in front of a good fan for 3 days or so. If it's raining, leave it there until it's 3 days after the rain stops, or if you live in Seattle and it's winter, at least a very long time.
For electronics, there are safe cleaning compounds that can be used almost anywhere on the device, and can be used for immersion if necessary. You will need large amounts, and the stuff is not cheap, but depending on your gear may be worthwhile. A quick-and-dirty substitute is automotive Brake Cleaner. These chemicals attack corrosion, displace moisture, and evaporate leaving zero residue.
For cosmetic cleaning, like faceplates, knobs, etc, I use Bon Ami Foaming Cleanser but that product is not available outside Canada. Try a foaming glass cleanser, but be sure it's safe for chrome, aluminum, and painted surfaces before you use your substitute.
bleach and mold - a summary of suggestions (Score:5, Informative)
I've done this too, but not as much as the parent, I'm sure!
I personally think mold is insidious and terrible, so I'd prioritize getting rid of mold over saving the electronics - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try. (I rather imagine that most of the boater's stuff has to ALREADY be mold resistant, which does help stop the spread of mold.)
So I definitely recommend the mild bleach solution. This is increasing the death rate of the mold, but at the cost of reducing the life of your electronics. Since these things were submerged in water, ideally I'd recommend submerging them in a mild bleach solution for perhaps 20 min - ideally rotate/shake them a couple times during this bath.
If something has a ton of mold on it, you may want to actually WASH this - perhaps with mild soap or mild bleach, and scrubbing until there isn't a big pile of mold. Or it might be enough to let it soak longer (but with more corrosion) and shake it more.
Then to get RID of the bleach, I'd rinse them with two baths. (Because the first bath becomes bleachy just by the presence of the bleachy item you're rinsing.) In each case I'd give it some time to soak (~20 min) but esp in the first rinse, to make sure it gets all the bleach into solution.
Tap water is probably fine for the first one, but use distilled water for the second. After a couple items you should replace the second bath - and you might as well replace the first-bath with the water you just stopped using for the second bath.
Then I'd make sure they were quite dry as fast as possible, so any mold spores the bleach missed doesn't regrow on the damp you just created. The easiest way to do this is baking. 120 is pretty safe - most electronics can handle 140+ without a problem... the sensitive interior components get really hot while running, so the ones you're worried about damaging are usually the outside plastics.
40 min on one side (including getting it up to temp) and 20 min upside down is probably enough to stop further mold growth. I'd give them hours in the oven or days sitting before I turned them on, though.
Assuming you have a big pile of stuff to do this to, and 3 large buckets, and an oven as big as all 3 buckets combined, I've just described a 5 step assembly line process, where every 20 minutes you can move something ahead one step.
For smaller items, or ones you're not taking apart, the last bath could be rubbing alcohol, which would make it dry much faster. But in volume it's considerably more expensive; even distilled H20 is only a dollar a gallon.
You can do all the above things as a wash instead of a bath, IF you can effectively get to all the surfaces...
Spraying on a nonconductive corrosion resistor (like the above mentioned products seem to be) sounds like it would tend to extend the life of the device; it might also seal in any remaining mold spores, which I'd consider to be a good thing - but I'd still do a bleach-bath first to kill as much as you can.
It's a lot of work.