Users Rage Over Missing FireWire On New MacBooks 820
CWmike writes "Apple customers, unhappy that the company dropped FireWire from its new MacBook (not the Pro), are venting their frustrations on the company's support forum in hundreds of messages. Within minutes of Apple CEO Steve Jobs wrapping up a launch event in Cupertino, Calif., users started several threads to vent over the omission. 'Apple really screwed up with no FireWire port,' said Russ Tolman, who inaugurated a thread that by Thursday has collected more than 300 messages and been viewed over 8,000 times. 'No MacBook with [FireWire] — no new MacBook for me,' added Simon Meyer in a message posted yesterday. Several mentioned that FireWire's disappearance means that the new MacBooks could not be connected to other Macs using Target Disk Mode, and one noted that iMovie will have no way to connect to new MacBooks. Others pointed out that the previous-generation MacBook, which Apple is still selling at a reduced price of $999, includes a FireWire port. Apple introduced FireWire into its product lines in 1999 and championed the standard."
Moi aussi (Score:2, Interesting)
Yeah, I'm fucking bullshit about that. Not going to buy another MacBook until they put it back.
I've got a crapload of external drives, many of which are firewire only. Pisses me off that apple drops their own widely used standard on their own equipment.
Assmonkeys.
Why we like firewire (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:is that still around? (Score:1, Interesting)
USB is a burst protocol.
Firewire handles high throughput streams gallantly, and does not put extra load on the CPU.
Re:Moi aussi (Score:1, Interesting)
Pisses me off that apple drops their own widely used standard on their own equipment.
(emphasis mine)
Their own standard, widely used on Macs. And... that's about it. A "standard" nobody else uses and that Apple tried bludgeoning through the market to drive attention to themselves. It...
Wait, this is sounding familiar all of a sudden. Wasn't there some other large, arrogant company that tried this not too long ago?
Re:Why we like firewire (Score:3, Interesting)
Firewire is a standard, not a luxury (Score:5, Interesting)
The average audio/video hobbyist/artist is not going to shell out 2 grand for a firewire port so they can record their music and capture their video.
Re:is that still around? (Score:5, Interesting)
Speed isn't the issue, at least for me.
USB doesn't let you use the Mac in Target mode, turning it into an HD without needing any OS to boot. It's great for system recovery.
Re:Steve Jobs' take. . . (Score:4, Interesting)
Then maybe I'll buy a new HD camcorder and skip the MacBook purchase.
Good Job(s), Steve.
Do I care? (Score:4, Interesting)
The world has chosen USB for just about everything.
Recording (Score:5, Interesting)
Firewire is absolutely key when recording audio (in my case, guitar, bass, vocals, etc). USB pushes the CPU too hard and doesn't leave it free for realtime sound processing - amp simulation, etc. Currently I'm doing it on a 2 year old MacBook, but at this point my only upgrade option is a MBP. After factoring in the cost of replacing my Firewire hardware, the MBP isn't much more expensive anyway.
Then again, I guess that's what Apple wants.
Re:Lack of firewire is NOT the end of the world... (Score:3, Interesting)
For consumers, BETA tapes are a dead standard. But I'm sitting here surrounded by BETA tapes from major national networks and advertising agencies.
When an industry settles on a standard, don't expect a replacement for 20-30 years. The video and audio industry expects to use firewire for at least another 10 years. By eliminating firewire from the low end laptops, Apple is imposing a "pro" tax on the A/V production industry. Considering we already pay a premium over comparable PC equipment, Apple is going to see switchers going the wrong way for this decision.
USB Target mode? (Score:4, Interesting)
I realize that video recorders and many other devices are still predominantly firewire. But for most external drives and even still cameras, USB reigns supreme and is about as fast. Probably Apple's view is that if you're into video editing, you ought to be paying the big bucks for the privilege of using firewire on a top-of-the-line machine.
Does not Apple support target-mode with USB these days? It seems like it should be possible for Apple to make the device appear as a USB mass storage device.
Re:is that still around? (Score:2, Interesting)
No, it's the other way around. A shark with fins but no teeth can still get to you and possibly injure you just with its jaw strength.
A shark with teeth but no fins can't really move and I believe will drown before too long. So it can't get to you at all, but those teeth still look pretty scary.
Re:Maybe they were forced to drop it? (Score:4, Interesting)
I have a Dell laptop which cost £399 (which I think is approximately $60,000 USD) which has Firewire. I'm sure they could have managed it on a Mac that costs almost three times as much.
Re:FireWire has DMA, not USB! (Score:3, Interesting)
Its about differentiation between the consumer and pro laptop ranges nothing more. I've not used the firewire port on my original Macbook Pro except for the initial installation when I connected my old Powerbook to pull the information from it. I can now do that via Time Machine backups so won't need it in future.
The thing that all of these 'angry' users never seem to grasp is that there is no real reason to replace their current Macbook that does have firewire. Shocking though such a statement is its true. If you've already got an Intel Mac stick with it. There is nothing here worth getting angry about.
Re:I'm sure to get flamed for this... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're going to be doing video editing, why aren't you using the MacBook Pro already?
The same way we did video editing when we had 800 mhz processors, only faster. Unless you are doing a lot of editing, the vanilla Macbook is just fine for doing video.
And if you want to give me the "I want to edit video on the road" bit, well then I ask you how long is that battery going to last working with big video files?
So you use the power adapter?
But how many mainstream users actually use target disk on a regular basis, if ever.
It's invaluable when imaging machines.
When I buy one of the new ones, I'll appreciate not having to pay extra for a feature I'll never use.
And saving what, two bucks in the process? Leaving Firewire off of the Macbook Air made sense, because they were going for a bare bones system. It doesn't make sense for the rest of their line.
Now, that said, this story is nothing more than another hand out to anti-Apple concern trolls. If you need firewire in a laptop, get the old Macbook or a Pro.
Re:Moi aussi (Score:5, Interesting)
The criterion used to determine whether a technology is outdated is not how long it has been around or if other technologies are superior. The single criterion used is whether the technology is still NEEDED--that is to say, no other reasonable alternative, either economically or technologically, exists.
Since FireWire (IEEE 1394) is a commonly used interface for external HDs, and more importantly, DV cameras, and iMovie uses this interface to read digital video from such a camera, it is still necessary because the loss of the interface means significant functionality is lost. USB is not an adequate replacement for this purpose, and the same is true for Target Disk Mode (otherwise Apple would have implemented it over USB but that has clearly not come to pass). Therefore FireWire is not outdated.
That is it not widely used outside the Mac market is irrelevant. The MacBook used to be able to do at least two things (as described above) that many users consider important, that the newest iteration cannot. Moreover, there is no known workaround, no effort by Apple to find a reasonable alternative. That is why so many are upset. I personally believe it reflects a poor design and planning choice. The MacBook is not the MacBook Air. It is the entry-level laptop, some users' only machine. Many of them are educational users.
FWIW I own a MacBook Pro. I personally think 13" is too small and wouldn't get a MacBook anyway. But should Apple ever get rid of FireWire across the entire laptop line (without furnishing a viable alternative), I think you'd have a reaction 100 times worse than what's happening now. It would effectively kill laptop sales. That is how accepted FireWire is in the "Pro" and Mac market as a whole.
Re:Drat you Steve! (Score:3, Interesting)
"USB2 can't keep up with FW400 (even though the theoretical max is slightly higher) and doesn't transfer in the realtime mode needed by DV cams."
If this is true, why do most new DV cameras (lower end ones) have USB2? And really, are you going to buy a high end DV camera, with FW only, and a lowend laptop like the MacBook?
I'm still screwed because my DV is firewire only, but that isn't the case as much anymore. And so I really don't see what all the stink is about. There aren't a lot of FW only devices left in the world.
Now, TargetDiskMode is a different ball of wax. But what are the odds that Apple writes some firmware code that allows the same thing to happen via USB? Granted, it's not here today.
If you want choices, why are you buying Apple? (Score:5, Interesting)
Matte screens
Hi-res screens
BluRay
2 hard drives installed
VGA or DVI output without an adapter
A quality keyboard (yeah, I said it)
Actual mouse buttons
TrackPoint style navigation
Fingerprint Reader
Built-in 3G/WWAN networking
Built-in Wireless USB
Tablets (x61t, x200t)
Subnotebooks (12" x200 models, etc.)
Hotswap between 2nd hard disk, dvd-rom, bluray devices
The list is pretty huge. Point is, there are a TON of very worthwhile hardware features that you can't get on the new Mac laptops. How relevant is the OS at this point anyway? Start thinking about functionality more than design aesthetics.
re: M-Audio (Score:4, Interesting)
No, that's very true. M-Audio gear is "prosumer" grade, at best. I'm not a professional audio engineer or musician. It's a hobby for me. I used to play rhythm guitar in a local band, but that was over a decade ago - and was really just a "phase" for me. I still like tinkering with music though. (Every time I've decided to just sell off all my music gear, it seems like a buddy comes along and wants to "jam" on some Saturday evening or what-not, and I get the urge to buy some stuff back again. So I've learned that "once a musician, always a musician" saying has some truth behind it. I just keep my instruments now....)
What I meant in my original post, though, was -- one can loosely describe Apple's definition of a "pro user" as anyone who is an "enthusiast", "power user" or earns money with what they do with their computer. If you really don't fall into any of these categories, and just want a cheap notebook because it's needed for a few music things you do (say, maintaining a tone library for your Line 6 guitar processor or something?), why are you fixated on buying a "latest and greatest" Macbook revision anyway?
Re: M-Audio (Score:3, Interesting)
If Apple's competitors can include firewire with a $1000 laptop, why should I be forced to pay $2000 for a comparable Apple product?
Re:Drat you Steve! (Score:3, Interesting)
AFAIK, the reason new cameras can get away with USB instead of FW is because the new cameras don't store their data on a DV tape, but on a hard drive or other random access digital media.
A tape drive really only plays at one speed, so to get data off that tape, you need an interface that can cope with real-time speed. If you want to transfer 10 minutes of data off the tape, you need to do so in 10 minutes. With a hard drive, this restriction goes away; you can leisurely transfer that 10 minutes of data at any speed you want; you can take 15 minutes, or 20, or really whatever your customers will put up with.
Re:Drat you Steve! (Score:5, Interesting)
The major gripe for ordinary users is the loss of Target Disk Mode [wikipedia.org]. I can't count the number of times my ass has been saved by being able to boot my powerbook/ibook/macbook as a firewire drive.
It's not as big of a deal these days as it used to be, but back in the day target disk mode was the only way of getting to the contents of your powerbook's hard drive without disassembling the entire machine. On the macbooks now, it's easy - take out the battery, unscrew three screws and pull a tab - but it's STILL not as easy as restarting your computer, holding down the "T" button and plugging in a cable.
Re:Moi aussi (Score:3, Interesting)
It's always amusing that the only people complaining louder about Apple than the Apple haters are the Mac fans.
Re:Drat you Steve! (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, you could also spin this a different way - Apple fixes a huge security hole - but that may not be enough (depends on if a shift-command-option-delete drive enabling still exists).
I assume boot to CD/DVD is still unaffected, as well (hold c on boot). I spent many a day hacking macs to work around annoyances like Foolproof and Silverlining (pre-OSX security software). Early OSX was just about as trivial. X.0 had a few exploits, some of which affected X.1, but only if the user upgraded from X.0 to X.1. All of the ones I knew about were fixed by X.2, and I really haven't done any hacking since then except remotely trying to exploit my own box (one way to make sure your scripts are secure is to beat on them a bit).
Re:Drat you Steve! (Score:3, Interesting)
LiveCD's don't work on Apple computers? Because that's what I've always used to save my bacon. Is Apple really that technologically backwards?
Re:Target Mode over USB? (Score:2, Interesting)
Target disk mode won't happen with USB, the protocol has no support for peer to peer connections or multiple hosts on a single bus, or even no hosts on the bus.
If you never "got" the advantages of FireWire, or just want to connect external HD's & webcams you're not really going to miss it.
However, some FireWire advantages over USB include:
Target Disk Mode on Macs
FireWire can be daisy chained
Bus Power - FW - Up to 30V/45W vs USB 5V/500mA
Peer to Peer Connections (no host or CPU required)
Multiple Host on a bus support
TCP/IP Networking support
Distance FW800 = 100 Meters USB = 5 Meters
No Drivers Required (config ROM built in) aka Plug n Play
Remote Control of devices like cameras
CableTV Box Support
Firewire allows two operating modes. One is asynchronous, like USB which suffers from latency, bus contention and collisions.
The other is isochronous mode, and it lets a device carve out a certain dedicated amount of bandwidth that other devices can't touch. It gets a certain number of time slices each second all its own. The advantages for audio/video should be obvious: that stream of data can just keep on flowing, and as long as there isn't more bandwidth demand than the wire can handle, nothing will interfere with it. No collisions, no glitches.
From a practical perspective, this also makes it safer to send a lot more audio via Firewire. That's why most of the multichannel interfaces (16-24 channel) are Firewire devices, while USB devices are used for a two-channel stereo signal.
Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)
The debate was over once the performance difference between SCSI and ATA wasn't big enough to justify the additional cost
Have you ever actually compared the difference between sata and sas systems? It has a much larger effect on responsiveness than going from a 2GHz to 3GHz CPU. Almost all of our systems use SCSI or SAS drives.
It's the CPU difference which really matters. A decent SCSI system will sit at 80-100% utilised and the CPU will be close to idle. My personal desktop system. 15k RPM SAS drives. Waiting for computers is boring.