Apple Laptop Upgrades Costing 200% More Than Dells 935
An anonymous reader writes "C|net is highlighting the astonishing cost of Apple laptop hardware upgrades, compared to Dell — in some instances, Apple is charging 200% more for upgraded components, such as memory and hard disks. Either there's a serious difference in the quality of components being used, or Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves."
Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:3, Informative)
200% more? (Score:1, Informative)
Really? 200% more? That is 3 times as much. Or perhaps you actually meant 100% more, which is twice as much... or alternatively, "200% as much as".
Desktops too (Score:5, Informative)
This is also true of Apple desktops.
Simple check: Go to the Apple store, and price a Mac Pro 8-core with the basic amenities; 2 GB ram, the recommended HD. Then price it maxed out; one HD of the largest size (1/2 TB last I looked) and 32 GB of RAM. Finally, take the original price and add 32 GB of RAM in 4 GB sticks (the Mac Pro can take 8 sticks) from a reputable online store. The difference is astonishing.
I have a recent Mac Pro, and I expanded it the sensible way; the amount of money I saved by doing that is staggering. I've had absolutely no problems.
Time != Dollars? (Score:2, Informative)
I can change the hard drive in a Dell in a conservative 4 minutes, to do the same in a MacBook Pro takes 40 minutes and chances are it is going back together bent with a couple screws stripped.
Not Quite a Rip Off (Score:2, Informative)
I've tested Apple ram and non-Apple ram (most of the big ones) extensively as part of what I do for a living, and it is very much the case that Apple ram has a very, very low rate of failure--one of the lowest actually. I don't know about the rest of their hardware, but part of the Apple deal that I do know about is how they pay for their care plans, which almost always cost Apple more than it costs the customer...
They do it by rigidly controlling the components of the hardware---they're not about to replace non-Apple ram for you when it fails for free--or at all. In return for using all Apple components, you get what amounts to the best guarantee (for the first year) in the industry. In order to pay for that level of care, Apple charges more for its components.
I'm not sure that it's not a rip-off in some sense, but anyone who's dealt with Dell's customer service in the last three years knows veyr well that you get what you pay for.
A pet peeve (Score:2, Informative)
A percentage should never be used with either the term "more" or "less." It should always be "of." Then any ambiguity is eliminated.
Apple's hardware costs 200% of Dell's.
The worst is when someone says "This costs ten times less than that!" Really? The price is NEGATIVE 900% of that? Better is "This costs 10% of that."
True, but very old news (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
You can up the memory without voiding the warranty, at least on the MacBook Pros; I'd imagine on most systems too.
As for the Hard-drives, I don't know.
Re:200% more? (Score:5, Informative)
An 8-headed display Mac Pro is $3239. To which you add four 1TB drives, and RAM, both from elsewhere. You chuck out (or sell, it's very good hardware) the 2 GB stick of RAM and the HD it comes with.
RAM is $699 per 8GB (as pairs of 4GB sticks @ memorysuppliers.com); so you need $2800 for 32 GB; a 1 Tb drive is $190 (WD Caviar GP WD10EACS Hard Drive @ buy.com), so you need $760 for four drives. Total:
$3239 - macpro w/wifi, 8 display outputs (4x ATI 2600 XT 256MB), 2.8 GHz
$2800 - ram
$ 760 - drives
---------
$6799...
Same configuration (32 GB, 4x1 TB drives) from the Apple store:
$13,989.00
Re:Oil change at the dealer (Score:3, Informative)
Two thoughts on that.
1. You should learn; it isn't that difficult. I was changing my mother's car's oil at 15. Just make sure you don't drop the drain plug in the pan :)
2. In my state, any reputable mechanic can do warranty repairs. You should check with your local mechanic to see if you have similar laws on the books.
As a rule, I never go to a dealer for anything except for warranty repairs, but those are extremely rare since I've only owned one car with an actual warranty (and it was a Honda). Dealers will charge you double for parts and extra for labor, and they screw up oil changes fairly regularly -- usually by over-tightening the oil filter.
Beware of local guys, though. Some will try to rip you off, but if you find a local guy with integrity and establish a good relationship with them, you'll be much better off than going with a dealer.
Re:200% more? (Score:2, Informative)
Isn't that the idea? (Score:3, Informative)
Apple is a premium brand, so you pay more for everything.
One of the ideas behind this strategy is that you are trying to attract primarily the most 'price-insensitive' customers. These are, after-all, the most desirable customers.
One can see how it pays off with the recent AT&T deal. Apple got the best of the deal, but AT&T justified it to their shareholders by reminding them that these are the best customers you can get.
Of course, getting these customers is not as easy at just raising your prices - being the #1 cool brand is the key and is very expensive in marketing etc. - but the upside is huge.
Re:Of course (Score:2, Informative)
In other news: radio upgrades cost more on a BMW than on a Hyundai.
no they dont. the local Car audio shop charges the same price for a specific stereo to be installed in a car. you MIGHT need some additional gear to make it fit in the BMW because of their stupid systems like GM has but it's no more money.
now at the dealer is a different story. only fools get work or upgrades at the dealer.
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
Golly sir those Macs must run on fairy dust and Unicorn poop...
Give me a break it isn't some magical device people. Apple uses off the shelf parts. Apple even provides instructions on how to do it!
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270 [apple.com]
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/MacBook_13inch_HardDrive_DIY.pdf [apple.com]
If your local computer guy can READ and use the internet this is a piece of cake.
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
How the hell did i get modded as a troll for not wanting to void my warranty? Morons.
Probably because everyone knows that opening a Mac doesn't void the warranty.
Re:Duh? (Score:5, Informative)
Yep, but also watch out when Apple has specials. When I bought my MacBook, I was going to get the base model and upgrade the HD and RAM to get it to be nearly the same as the middle model.
But they were running a special at the time (I think it was a Back-to-School special). For about $200 more, I could double my RAM, upgrade my HD and get a slightly faster processor. So I just paid the $200 upgrade as it would have cost me as much just to buy the parts.
Re:my personal experience... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Desktops too (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:4, Informative)
Not unless they've recently changed the Macbooks. When I had one on loan for a short while I pulled the hard drive just to see how accessible it was, and IIRC it was held in place solely by friction and the little flap thing that covers the back of the drive and the memory slots. No sleds to speak of.
I could be way off here as it was a while ago, but I know that I didn't need any Torx screwdrivers to get at it.
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:3, Informative)
um what DRM? there is no DRM n the hardware. Apple simply uses the intel upgraded version of the 80's piece of shit tech of BIOS. it is Called EFI and any OS that supports booting from EFI can load on a Mac.
BIOS like PS/2 ports are outdated but stick around because that is all MSFT supports well.
installing hardware in most macbooks does require someone with OCD though. there are lot's of little screws to be undone. My question is how many people actually upgrade memory or hard drives in laptops? by the time they go bad in most cases it is 5-7 years later. It is like large tower computers with dozens of ports for upgrades that rarely if ever get used.
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
The software side of the new disk is easy - toss in the installer disc and it works its magic. Getting at the hard drive in the MBP is very much a non-trivial process (the standard MacBooks hard drives are as easy to access as anyone could reasonably expect in any laptop). Moving the data across is equally easy, provided you have another machine or a drive enclosure.
Same here w/o AppleCare (Score:3, Informative)
Had upgraded my MacBook to 2G for 40â instead of the 200â it would have cost on the Apple store, and put in a 160G HDD ... and had it serviced for /free/ due to a warranty extension on the battery.
Unfortunately they did something wrong, the system doesn't recognize whether the power adapter is plugged in or not. Weird.
Re:Desktops too (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not Quite a Rip Off (Score:5, Informative)
kool aid stains are showing.
The RAM that comes in the Apple products is the SAME RAM that comes in the Dell products.
its made in the same country and in the same plant, on the same assembly line, and purchased through the same distribution channel.
It's a commodity.
Or are you goingto tell me that Micron makes a special "Apple only" ram that they rigorously test to make sure is the very best stuff out there and then only offer it to Apple while at the same time taking the reject ram and selling it to their other oem customers?
not likely.
They'd be down to selling ram to apple only pretty quickly if their failure rate was that bad for the others.
I'll also point out this holds the same for Seagate and hitachi for hard drives.
Re:quality of components isn't the only cost facto (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Apple (Score:5, Informative)
The last time I checked (Consumer Reports), the only thing Apple has over other vendors is better customer service: not technology.
What? Consumer Reports showed them as having a very significantly lower failure rate during the first year than any other vendor (as of early 2007). That was the last real study I saw them publish on the subject.
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
You were modded down because just about everyone knows that it's unlawful to void warranties merely because service wasn't performed by an authorized vendor.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm [ftc.gov]
"Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags.
Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
Re:Of course (Score:2, Informative)
A) No they don't.
B) Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Apple isn't the Beamer of computers -- Prius, maybe -- and Dell certainly isn't the Hundai.
Re:Oil change at the dealer (Score:4, Informative)
Get a Fumoto valve [quickoildrainvalve.com], never worry about dropping the plug again
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
If your local computer guy can READ and use the internet this is a piece of cake.
I am a FNCG and I don't do HD upgrades on my MacBook Pro myself largely due to warranty issues. If I screw up something up during the installation I'm stuck with the damage but if Apple does they have to replace the machine. Upgrading desktop boxes is, of course, a different story. I don't buy parts from Apple. I can source laptop hard drives for example, from third part suppliers at about 50% of the price my local Apple dealer sells them at. Apple has yet to refuse to install the components I hand them. The last time I upgraded the HD in my MacBook Pro I wanted a 320G disk which the guy in the Apple repair workshop said they wasn't available. I came back like 45 Minutes later after finding one single computer shop in town that sold 320G laptop drives and asked they guy I talked to previously to install it. He wanted to know where I got it from but I just told him it was from another supplier in the city and that it was way cheaper than Apple's upgrade parts and that he should let me know if he could figure out where I got it. When I got the MacBook back from the shop later that day they had installed the drive and OS X but they renamed the drive after the shop where I bought it instead of the default name "Macinstoh HD"...
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:3, Informative)
The OS checks against a hardware key stored in EFI to ensure it is booting on Apple hardware, right? How is that not DRM?
Windows, Mac OS X and most Linux distros support using USB keyboards and mice out of the box.
I would imagine a LOT of people upgrade memory in a Macbook. Many Mac users are using high-end applications that process lots of data, like high-end audio and video editing systems, and, therefore, would reap benefits from upgrading the memory in any Macbook. It's not like these things ship with 8GB standard.
Failing hard drives, you're probably right. Notebook HDDs, on average, seem last about 5-7 years, well after the time most people would be upgrading to a new machine anyway.
OTOH, some might need more storage than comes standard. On the third hand, there is portable USB or NAS storage for those who have serious storage needs.
Re:XServes Too.. (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah the Xserves are insane. I called them up asking whether I can upgrade the drives myself and they said that you have to buy at least the 80GB units to get the drive trays. A $3000 machine and it comes with one 80GB drive and two useless blanking plates (and only a single quad-core xeon to boot)? Screw that. I just pieced together an 8-core/2GB/2x80GB 1U from Dell for $1700; even if you add $1000 to that for the OS X Server Unlimited-users version, you're still $700 cheaper in specs.
I'm willing to pay a premium to get a better product that works right the first time, but Apple is REALLY milking it on the pro-oriented hardware.
Cost is really half... (Score:3, Informative)
Assuming Apple will sell you the upgrade... (Score:3, Informative)
In some cases, Apple won't even sell you the upgrade. They don't sell a 15.4" Macbook Pro with a WUXGA screen-- but Dell will put a WUXGA screen in one of their 15.4" widescreen laptops. Imagine what it would cost if they would!
And at least for the CCFL-backlit Macbook Pros, the parts are directly interchangeable. Plug-and-bolt-compatible. (http://www.hiresmacbook.com has details; that's how I did mine)
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek (Score:4, Informative)
One of the first things I did when I bought my MacBook was to double the RAM, and replace the hard disk with a 250Gb one.
And yes, that was because of the horrendous premiums they charge on their hardware upgrades.
Proof is in the pudding (Score:1, Informative)
As a developer I hate to say it but I have never had Apple RAM fail or overheat or do whatever breaks ram. I used to not believe it when I worked for Apple's Help Desk and we would ask users to pull third party RAM (not for all issues just for repeatable KP's and random reboots) and the issue would go away.
Heck I saw it this year when my company bought bargain RAM and in the middle of doing some dev work my unit would just reboot or halt. It took me 2 days to figure it out. I pulled the side of the tower and right there on the riser were some Red Lights that I thought should not be there. I pulled 2 GB of RAM and it went away.
I have also had this in client \ studio units where they thought I was not doing my job correctly, so I walked away and it turns out that they lost a week of recording time b\c it took that long to say "what do I have to lose?" and bit the bullet and bought the good stuff.
I cannot prove the RAM went bad b\c it was not Apple I can say that for what it worth I have had zero faults in the expensive RAM and several other cases where the users and even other programmers would have a fit because they saved a few bucks and then unit was occasionally unstable.
It is a lot like Schroedingers cat. You cannot determine the state (dead\alive) from th outside.
AND lastly for what it is worth a "bargain" is only a bargain if it saves you billable time and effort. I can afford it. And i have piece of mind on my MBP so while I felt like I got b|tched at the Apple Store. I have loved it every day since
Re:Desktops too (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Desktops too (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Desktops too (Score:3, Informative)
There are other stores besides Newegg, you know.
Go to ramseeker.com, look at Mac Pro memory. 4GB FD-DIMMS (not only with the right electronic specs, but with the proper heat sink, very important as the Mac Pro effectively requires a nonstandard heat sink) for $290 each.
Re:Apple (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Three times as expensive? (Score:4, Informative)
You assumption has no basis in reality, yet you were modded up. /. does us all proud.
£90.01 from the Apple configurator. Doing the same upgrade with a Dell XPS M1330 costs just £30.01
30 * 3 = 90
30 + (200% * 30) = 90
Therefore, 90 is 200% more expensive than 30
using the Apple Web site will cost an extra £120. Doing that same swap with the Dell XPS M1330 costs just £40.01.
40 * 3 = 120
40 + (200% * 40) = 120
Therefore, 120 is 200% more expensive than 40
Who knew that "200% more" and "3 times as expensive" worked out to the same thing!?
I didn't read TFA, just assuming they mean 100% more expensive.
Not only does your ignorance do you proud, /. proud.
the person who modded you up does all of
/math, learn it.
Re:And this is wrong because? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, I'm willing to forgive it because it doesn't affect me. I just bought a MacBook. I like it. I had three options: for $1100 I could have a 2.1 Ghz Core Duo, 1 GB of RAM, 120GB HDD, and a CD Burner. For $1300 I could upgrade to a 2.4 Ghz Core Duo CPU, double the RAM, add 40 GB to the HDD, and get a DVD burner. For $1500 I could get a 250 GB HDD and a black case (otherwise it was identical to the $1300 version). I did the math real quick and decided that the $200 for the middle option was a good deal, but the extra $200 more for 90GB more HDD was not (Oh, and a black case... can't forget that). I now own a laptop whose features compare favorably with similar Dell offerings; had I spent the extra I'd have been either foolish or not done my research. If Apple can convince people to part with an extra $200 for a case color, I say power to 'em. I'm just not one of those people. I may even drop $100 for a 250GB HDD and upgrade the silly thing if it becomes a problem... but right now I'm not even filling half the drive.
Apple's gear is perfectly reasonable if you pay attention to what you are actually buying; but just like anyone else they'll charge premiums when they think they can get away with it.
OWC does (Score:2, Informative)
Anyone upgrading mac innards themselves knows about them, or should.
Re:Apple (Score:3, Informative)
Cite please?
Here is a list and commentary [opensecrets.org] on MS's campaign contributions. Notice what happens in 98 when they go on trial and then, again, the huge increase in the 2000 election year, just before all the people who successfully convicted MS were replaced by new appointees who let MS off the hook with no punishment and without being broken up.
Just because no one can prove these contributions resulted in favorable treatment doesn't mean we're all idiots and can't put two and two together. American politicians have been for sale for many years and these big companies aren't giving this money away as a charity. They do it because it works to get whatever it is they want, be it legislation that gives them and advantage over the competition or allows them to make money at the people's expense or they want out of their legal troubles.
Re:Need To Look Up "Rip-Off" (Score:2, Informative)
Furthermore, "rip-off" is still quite common in colloquial speech--"part of our jargon"--as evidenced by its appearance in the summary. No-one needs a lecture on the subtleties of it usage.
Re:Desktops too (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Apple (Score:5, Informative)
During MS's antitrust case, the judge ruled that Apple wasn't considered competition because Macs and PCs are two different markets.
Using that logic, Apple doesn't have any competition at all in the "mac marketplace".
Re:Apple (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Apple (Score:3, Informative)
MS may have gotten a slap on the wrist in the US, but it was a decent slap.
How do you figure. The US still hasn't even made them stop all the violations they were convicted of. The sentence was a fine, which is almost certainly much less than what they made through their criminal actions. They were ordered to open their API as monitored by government regulators... or the regulators would watch them for another 4 years. So MS never bothered. They're just now getting most of the APIs published because of the EU, but still don't have all of them. They still are bundling IE and Web developers still have to code to really old standards because MS won't support newer ones. So basically the US did nothing effective except finding of fact that were used overseas and in private lawsuits.
The EU continues to rake MS over the coals and has new, ridiculous demands every few months or so.
The EU still hasn't even charged MS with abuses they've been convicted of in other jurisdictions. They were moderately effective with regard to abuses in the server OS market, but their remedy for media players has done nothing. They haven't touched the browser market, office suite market, portable document market, etc. All in all the EU has been very, very lenient to date, trying to be diplomatic and hoping the US would do the right thing and break up MS (about the only remedy anyone can expect to work).
Re:Apple (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This isn't about Macs, but parts (Score:4, Informative)
Bullshit. The most recent mac I purchased came with cheap HYNIX memory.
Re:Apple (Score:4, Informative)
And apparently unless you are NASA maybe that's a good thing. I oversaw a quarter of a million dollar XSAN install and dealing with Apple Enterprise was a joke. Fucked up quotes, reps (more than once) going on vacation without notice, shipping the wrong product, cocking up the install and not admitting it or sending an engineer out until legal threats were brought to the table.
I found EMC to be way more professional and technically knowledgeable.
Of course this is anecdotal and maybe I just got the moron squad from Apple Enterprise.