KrispyDollars writes "It sounds crazy to say this, but the XP-based version of the Eee PC 900 (the new version with the 8.9" screen) will actually be considerably cheaper than the Linux-based version. At the official launch today, the company told journalists that 'Microsoft has been a longstanding supporter of Asus' to explain the price discrepancy. And — get this — only the XP-based machine will be sold at mass-market retailers, while the Linux-based model will be consigned to computer stores."
At the official launch today, the company told journalists that 'Microsoft has been a longstanding supporter of Asus' to explain the price discrepancy.
It might also be nice to quote the prices ($600 Vs $650) and the physical discriminator which is (and this is from TFA): "the XP model has just 12GB of storage, while the Linux version has 20GB."
I'm pretty sure the only reason the pricing is different is due to the storage factor. I've suspected for quite sometime that Microsoft basically gives away XP & MS Works with Dell computers and now that the price of hardware is dropping, they're going to have to. Works is a real piece of work, FYI... my signature heavily applies to that software in this case.
Is it ok to chastise Asus for denying customers the choice of OS independent of HDD size? Yes.
Is it ok to go on a rant about Microsoft's hidden costs? Definitely, in fact I'm sure there's going to be a few +5 insightfuls with that theme.
Is it ok to wig out and claim that Microsoft is cutting deals with Asus to insure the downfall of Linux? No. You're wasting your time--spend it more constructively coding open source or lobbying for your company to use open source.
Asus is free to do as they please and if Microsoft thinks it's a good business move, let them. The funny thing about open source is that you don't have to promote it to end users. It's slowly and steadily being adopted. The end state is open source for everyone everywhere; it's unavoidable; it's just a question of when it happens (and no, I'm not going to personify software or data as 'wanting' to be free because it's about what improves the community not what software 'wants'). As long as Microsoft isn't doing something shady to keep Linux out of the Enterprise, they can do whatever they want. I don't even know how they could do that. If you look at the trends, whatever is adopted by the Enterprise is usually adopted by the single consumer in due time. DoD is starting to mandate open source also.
Ubuntu 8.04 was a marked improvement over 7.10. Aero was on par with XP. Microsoft has parked themselves at the head of the pack and are now relying on Business and Marketing to promote a Technology. It's a good sign of bad times for Microsoft.
So why is everyone fretting? Just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Please, don't be one of those guys who preach about open source in a RMS religious zealot style to end users who just want their goddamn iPod to work on their home machine (Oh, by the way, I was pleasantly surprised to find that my shuffle Just Worked when I attached it to Ubuntu 8.04). You're doing more harm than good.
It's just like Linksys have done with its WRT54G series...
If you want to buy a cheapo WRT54Gv5 version of the wireless router, you get it packed with VxWorks, some kind of crappy and proprietary OS installed in DLink routers. If you want to have a stable and reliable router, you go with the WRT54GL (L for Linux), which is the "deluxe" Linux version.
I sincerely wouldn't call VxWorks crappy... for instance, it's the only OS to have left the earth, which is something. For one who have worked with VxWorks, I can only say that it is so modular and low-level that the end result is as crappy as you want it to be, but not as VxWorks have made you crap it. You have to admit that Linksys crapped the Linux base version (without hacking) too;)
it is so modular and low-level that the end result is as crappy as you want it to be, but not as VxWorks have made you crap it.
Say Wha?!
Client: "Hey, I wanna make a car" VxWorks: "Okay. Here's lego blocks. They are certified and been used by thousands of high-profile companies before you, so they are guaranteed a high level of quality." Client: "Hey, I've done my car, but it's crappy"
Whose fault is it?
(( PS: if you're talking about my english, I think it is correct, though it's not my native tongue ))
A quick google shows that's mostly a Brazilian model, but I can't seem to find any specs or anything I can understand. What makes it different than the WRT54G or WRT54GL?
Only on Slashdot will someone mention a "Brazilian model" and be talking about some sort of router. Tragic!
Perhaps, without Microsoft interference, Asus would have a $400 12 GB model and a $500 20 GB model. That would more closely match the US prices and falling hardware prices.
So the Linux version has 8 GByte of flash disk more and costs $50 more? Even with today's hardware prices, the Linux version seems like the better deal to me.
If only the XP version is available at "mass-market retailers", that is a bit suspicious but understandable. Users with little experience may be better off if a salesperson explains the difference to them. Competent salespersons tend to be rare at supermarkets.
Overall, I don't see much evidence of shady deals here.
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Asus is protecting themselves by only giving the XP version at superstores. Otherwise, they'd have a bunch of confused users wondering why they can't run iTunes on their new computer.
And yet, they've been selling the old Linux-only one without apparent confusion for many months now...
I guess if they're positioning this thing as a traditional laptop, it makes sense to be concerned about people's expectations. But I thought the Eee was marketed as an internet appliance that you shouldn't expect to be able to run iTunes on. And the limited capacity (especially of the XP model) leaves little room for big apps like iTunes.
If you ask me, the price point has moved beyond the old, cheap, impulse buy model. It's certainly a better deal than a Mac Air, but Asus is starting to confuse the new category they helped define. And maybe that's by design. Lots of attention and hype. Now they're trying to redirect it toward their higher-margin offerings.
Still doesn't justify charging more to leave off Windows. Anti-trust enforcement is a joke.
Please, don't be one of those guys who preach about open source in a RMS religious zealot style to end users who just want their goddamn iPod to work on their home machine
There are 3 ways to make things "Just Work":
1.(The Apple way) Be able to control everything, from the metal to the display. If you can make everything the way you want it to be, you can make things work by design.
2. (The Microsoft way) Be able to contol everyone, from the hardware manufacturers to the software developers. If you can make everybody make things the way you want them to be, you can make things work by fiat.
3. (The F/OSS way) Be able to know everything, from the hardware registers to the software code. If you know everything about the components you use, you can make things work by hacking.
The reason RMS is so adamant about making things free is because we, as end users, have no other way to make them work for us.
I wasn't trying to claim that any of the three approaches succeeded in making everything "Just Work", I was just illustrating the only three ways it would be possible. Each of the three fails due to a lack in some portion of the implementation.
1.) Either the access point isn't an Apple product, and thereby outside of their control, or there really is a problem in their wifi implementation, which is a failure to adhere to their approach, not a failure of their approach in general.
2.) Microsoft's hegemony isn't universal, and it is certainly not omnipotent. They can get most people to follow their rules, but even those that choose to will not always follow all of the rules, or follow them properly. Again, this is because they don't control everyone, which is a failure to fully implement the approach, not a failure of the approach itself.
3.) You're quite right that not every user wants to hack their system to make it work. The F/OSS implementation is to provide enough users who can and do hack their systems to make it work, and having those users share the fruits of their labor with the rest of the community. Ideally, the manufacturers of hardware and developers of software would become a part of that community, and therefore they would be the "geeks", spreading the use of their product would be their "itch", and the hacking would be done by them to the benefit of their users. Again, the implementation of this approach is not universal, and so it doesn't make everything "Just Work".
There may be other approaches that I've not thought about, but if any of these three were to be successfully implemented, then they could make everything "Just Work". As it is, some organizations have produced various incarnations of these approaches with mixed levels of success, with Apple coming the closest to realizing the ideal of their chosen approach.
> I've suspected for quite sometime that Microsoft basically gives away XP & MS Works with Dell computers...
Microsoft doesn't "give." Here's what they did prior to their conviction as a monopolist (from the United States vs Microsoft findings of facts):
Page 29:
One of the ways Microsoft combats piracy is by advising OEMs that they
will be charged a higher price for Windows unless they drastically
limit the number of PCs that they sell without an operating system
pre-installed.
Page 33:
An aspect of Microsoft's pricing behavior that, while not tending
to prove monopoly power, is consistent with it is the fact that the
firm charges different OEMs different prices for Windows, depending
on the degree to which the individual OEMs comply with Microsoft's
wishes. Among the five largest OEMs, Gateway and IBM, which in various
ways have resisted Microsoft's efforts to enlist them in its efforts
to preserve the applications barrier to entry, pay higher prices than
Compaq, Dell, and Hewlett-Packard, which have pursued less contentious
relationships with Microsoft.
Page 34:
For example, Microsoft attaches to a Windows license conditions that
restrict the ability of OEMs to promote software that Microsoft believes
could weaken the applications barrier to entry.... In addition,
Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all but a
minute fraction of their machines with an operating system preinstalled.
I don't know how much has changed since their conviction, but I would assume that, even if they aren't allowed to do exactly that anymore, they've just found workarounds to achieve the same results (as evidenced here).
You're right that storage isn't the reason for the higher price. Asus explained a while back that the whole reason that the Linux model has a bigger SSD, is because they saved money on the XP licence, and used that to upgrade the storage rather than dropping the price of the unit. I wouldn't be surprised if MS mandated that too - it would look bad for the price of Windows to be right there on the box as a $100 mark-up.
If you live in the East of Melbourne (Australia not Florida), I highly recommend Bitronics.
[bitronics.com.au]
I've bought all my stuff from them for well over a decade. They opened a shop when I lived in Bayswater, had doom parties, piles of second hand stuff, kept the local teenagers busy, ect. They become pretty big now and lost a bit of that garage feel but they are still light years ahead of ASUS.
I've lived by the beach now for ~3yrs but still browse online and pick it up from the warehouse.
Not even sure the same guys own it but they will sell you a naked PC, pre-configured, built to order, pre-installed distro, distro on disc, windows, whaterver your poision,,,err...passion.
I've had problems but I've had them fixed without fuss.
Disclaimer: I've been a proffesional developer for ~20yrs. The only relationship I have with bitronics is as a customer, caveate emptor, shop around, and all that.
We all know that a lot of price conscious Australians will buy the cheaper model and load Linux on it.:) I know I would.
When I buy computers in general, I buy it with the smallest drive and least amount of RAM possible. I know I'm going to upgrade anyway, but the prices the OEMs charge for RAM upgrades and larger drives is ridiculous. Buying with the intent of upgrading is a nice way to save some money if you have the skill and confidence to open it up.
By the way... probably not a correct place to put this new information, but yesterday I came across something that shocked the hell out of me. On Dell's support site, I discovered that not only is there a DOS/Windows BIOS update utility for the Precision M4300, but a Linux version as well!! That has got to be the first Linux BIOS update utility I have ever seen. Perhaps others have seen this, but it was a first for me and Dell is doing it. Unfortunately, my Latitude doesn't have the Linux BIOS update method available yet so I'm still booting from flash drive DOS for updates, but perhaps it's only a matter of time.
(the 701 model, to be clear), I have this to say to Asus: I understand what is your level of commitment to Xandros Linux on your computers, so I hope you will be happy of losing one of your customers. And perhaps some 10-20% of other potential customers, too.
The Eee PC was my first step out of the MS upgrade treadmill nightmare, and you want to pull me right back? Sorry, no can do.
ASUS are a for-profit corporation. They're going to do whatever it takes to sell the most computers at the greatest profit. In the case of the Eee, they found that they could sell a computer without windows as long as it was extremely inexpensive.
If Microsoft offers an incentive to bundle Windows with their entry-level laptop, Asus are going to take it, as it adds value to their product. They'd be stupid not to.
Note here that you can still very easily install linux on the Windows machine, and that the Linux model is only $50AUD extra, and includes 8gb extra flash storage (which is probably easily worth the $50 extra to most customers).
One of the most common reasons cited for not adopting Linux, is that people perceive things that don't cost anything as being worthless...
In this case, the Linux option is more expensive, and demonstrably superior (larger storage, boots quicker, comes with a much wider selection of applications). How many people will consider the extra $50 worth it for a significantly better package?
Also perhaps people might like to buy the cheaper windows version, and then "pirate" linux to get some of the additional features only usually available on the more expensive model?
Also perhaps people might like to buy the cheaper windows version, and then "pirate" linux to get some of the additional features only usually available on the more expensive model?
Good idea. Maybe someone should set up a "PirateLinux.com" website to help consumers find various versions of Linux for free.;-)
Yes, yes, I know that the hardware is different (12GB drive vs 20 GB) but does anyone really believe that the whole move is anything other than an attempt by MS to prevent Linux from gaining a foothold in the portable PC market? Linux has, because of driver issues, mostly, enjoyed much less penetration in the notebook PC space. The EeePC's dramatic success in being accepted, with Linux OS, is almost certainly cause for alarm at Microsoft. The result, MS cut a deal that was designed to make it far more attractive (from a price standpoint) to go with a choice that includes Windows XP. The goal of this "dumping" is to prevent the continued penetration of Linux into this space.
Wonder if they're using the crapware discount sales model like how Sony and so many others used to do. Not sure if they still do though, haven't bought a PC for a while. If so then it would make sense the the Linux version is more expensive since there are few, if any, crapware titles for Linux.
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday May 08 2008, @09:28AM (#23337230)
When I buy a new system without Windows and install Linux on it, it's cheaper in the long run even if it costs more up front.
I don't have to waste time scanning for malware constantly or defragging my linux box, so I save time. I don't have to buy additional commercial software and pay for license keys or trust closed binary warezed alternatives.
In the long run, no matter how much you pay in the store, Linux saves you money and time.
And I don't support a convicted monopoly who has a history of criminal activities across the globe.
At $600, this is not really such a good laptop. I know it's been mentioned before, but they just lost the impulse buyer. Now it's just another laptop, and really not a very good one. I'd say ok, at $400, but at $600 they have priced themselves out of the game.
Surely the reason the Eee PC created such an initial buzz was the price - at the promised $199 or delivered $249 it was in a category of it's own as a cheap, small, notebook/internet applicance. At that price it was more of an impulse purchase than one to be considered too seriously, and the cheap price also made it appropriate for more casual use than a traditional lap top that needs to be treated as a more valuable object. Similar price difference and mental image of a cheap consumer digital point & shoot camera vs an expensive DSLR - different markets.
Asus seem to be determined to lose this new market they created (so new it hardly even has a name) as quickly as they created it. At $500-600 this is now competing with traditional laptops - an underpowered competitor in a large field as opposed to owning a new category they created. Seems dumb to me.
Pricing the Windows model below the Linux one seems to be another bizarre step in the wrong direction.I assumed they were using Linux for the strategic/pricing advantage it gave, but they just threw that advantage out of the window.
Oh, well... at least Asus proved there is a market for a cheap & cheerful $249 notebook / internet appliance... I guess it'll be up to another company to actually take advantage of that market!
Looks that way, doesn't it? Microsoft seems to be trying to spend the competition away. The only logical thing to do is buy the cheaper XP machine and put Linux on it.
And thus your purchase will raise the number of "customers who preferred the professional quality of Windows(TM)".
To me, the whole point of the eee is that it finally lets linux and windows have an unbiased competition with the market for judge: people won't just keep windows because it's preinstalled ( except of course taking linux still means "switching" to something less familliar).
If I was australian and wanted to buy one, I'd throw in the extra cash to show that linux users exist as a demographic.
To me, the whole point of the eee is that it finally lets linux and windows have an unbiased competition with the market for judge
And this demonstrates that we will never have unbiased (or fair) competition as long as one of the competitors is Microsoft.
So play 'em at their own game. Hold installfests in the parking lots of places selling the things. Whoop it up. FOSS isn't driven by "market share," it's driven by the passion of its developers and users. It isn't going anywhere.
Microsoft may be able to point at some meaningless marketing numbers and say "see, people are choosing Windows, even when Linux is more expensive" and I bet some PHBs will even think that statement makes sense. Doesn't matter, Microsoft will run out of money eventually and FOSS will still be there.
If I was australian and wanted to buy one, I'd throw in the extra cash to show that linux users exist as a demographic.
I am Australian and I would do the same if I wanted one.
This is a bit off the topic of the original story, but hopefully relates to the thread.
Another good trick I used just recently to show that there is a market for Linux in Australia is to complain about the OEM OS that comes machines from the viewpoint of statutory warranty.
I bought a notebook which, according to the display in the shop, came with Vista Home Premium. According to MS, Vista home premium has excellent repair tools and can be installed on a 40GB partition, but the version on my notebook could only be installed by wiping the entire machine and taking up the 150GB of the 160 GB disk.
I argued that what they gave me was not Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium as advertised. I pointed out that the box including the term "OEM" did not fully explain the limitations of the included software and that reasonable research into Vista on the Microsoft site gave me a completely different idea of what I was buying. It wasn't until after I opened the box, installed Linux and then wanted to put Vista on a 40GB partition for testing purposes that I found out about the limitations, and then it was only after I called support.
After a several conversations with customer service and tech support, I finally got them to pay for full installation media from Microsoft. I know MS still got their money, but the story has spread through the OEM about how Ubuntu is easier to use and quicker on my notebook than Vista and I have soured the relationship further between MS and a supplier, which according to some candid conversations with support and business people within the supplier is already pretty sour.
I should stress that all the way through the process I was polite. Every time customer service attempted to transfer me to tech support, I explained that the problem was not a technical one, but a business one, namely that they had to provide Vista Home Premium as described on the Microsoft site or they were in breach of the statutory warranty. Every time they said "We don't support downgrading the unit," I politely corrected them, informing them I had upgraded it. Every time they made reference to the "recovery partition", I corrected them telling them that from a customer's point of view wiping the entire system clean is no recovery.
Sure I am only one person, but seeing as you can no longer get a refund for just the OS on an OEM product, if everyone does what I have done instead of silently installing Linux, the manufacturers will start to see that there is a market for desktop Linux here.
These PCs have nowhere near the power of a full fledged desktop. The EEE scares MS because it showed that Linux could be user friendly, secure, and cheap- at regular OEM prices, a $400 laptop wouldn't be profitable with an $100+ OEM license for Windows and a $30+ license for works.
To keep people using XP, MS is probably giving away (or close to it) the licenses to ASUS. Combined with the fact that the Xandros is a commercial distro that Asus needs to provide updates for and the additional 8GB of space in the Linux version, it's not terribly suprising.
I'm typing this post on an EEE 4G now, and I'm really pleased with the built in Xandros. Lightweight, Word/Excel/PowerPoint compatible, not prone to viruses. If I was in the market for a new EEE for the price difference and the ability to dual boot with no additional cost I'd probably buy the Windows version and put Ubuntu on it. I have a few Windows specific apps still...
It wouldn't be surprising. I worked for Fujitsu Siemens for a while and they got paid by Microsoft to put the "Fujitsu Siemens recommends Windows XP Pro". Depending on where they put it varied the amount of money they got, so they slowly moved it from "high up the page" to "in the header".
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a similar offer here, plus another offer for selling only the Windows Eees in "select retailers".
Besides which it probably cost them more to implement it than MS since I bet they had to hire an entire Engineering staff, at least one FTE plus support folks.
Are you kidding? Getting Windows to run on a new piece of hardware is a shitload of work. Among other things, out of the box, Windows lacks a lot of drivers.
Standard Linux distributions basically just boots on the Eee PC (I installed Ubuntu on mine) with essentially no extra work or customization, and installing it is a few clicks.
It's all about public perception. The Linux machine can't run Windows apps (at least I don't think WINE's included, and WINE's never a good answer to that problem anyway.) Therefore, it's worse in many people's eyes.
So, now, the Linux machine is more expensive, and perceived to be worse.
This is not good if you want Linux to succeed in the marketplace.
It's all about public perception. The Linux machine can't run Windows apps (at least I don't think WINE's included, and WINE's never a good answer to that problem anyway.) Therefore, it's worse in many people's eyes.
The problem with that argument is that most consumers aren't buying and running Windows apps anymore.
Almost everything they do is web-based and no-one's going to bat an eye once they're told that OpenOffice is $0, works almost exactly like MS Office and can open/save to MS Office documents without a hitch. (Sure, there are exceptions to that, but average consumer isn't going to run into those obscure issues.)
The average consumer might even get outright excited when you mention that merely using Firefox on Xandros gives them better protection from virii and malware than XP, even if they'd paid for a copy of Norton or McAfee. (And without the slowdowns, compatibility problems and hassle of those packages)
And since the eee PC is an intensely personal sort of kit, it's doubtful that Joe or Jane Six-pack is going to pass on it just because it won't supplant the family PC that their kids run games on.
The eee PC simply doesn't have to match up to XP like desktop linux would. It doesn't have to solve all of someone's computing needs. It just needs to be good at the tasks people want a subnotebook for (almost entirely web usage and basic document creation).
That may appear insulting to an experienced Linux guru.
But for many years it used to be Microsoft's best selling point in comparison to Linux: Windows and Microsoft applications in general are easy to get started with. Only recently, Linux distributions (especially Ubuntu) have managed to catch up in that regard. If you want to sell to a wide audience, an "easy" interface is good.
Of course, it should also have an easily accessible terminal emulation so the gurus can hack on their config files;-)
I was thinking the same thing. The fact that Linux is now touted as the 'easy' OS to use is rather insulting to Redmond I would think.
I am concerned that those unfamiliar with Linux will see this and conclude that Linux is expensive rather than....er... FREE.
MS has done a good job of making Windows look like the best choice, and IMO this should be investigated using lawyers and stuff as it makes no sense whatsoever if you look at it from the point of view that MS would never stoop to any dirty tricks. Of course, if you are even a tiny bit cynical you can't help but see that this is obviously a questionable business deal that needs to be investigated by those that would destroy monopolies.
IMHO, the biggest reason is to give a clear message that you don't want Windows. People are scrapping their default Windows installs for Linux all the time, but this won't change the huge market share of Windows, which in turn affects hardware and software makers.
12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure the only reason the pricing is different is due to the storage factor. I've suspected for quite sometime that Microsoft basically gives away XP & MS Works with Dell computers and now that the price of hardware is dropping, they're going to have to. Works is a real piece of work, FYI
Is it ok to chastise Asus for denying customers the choice of OS independent of HDD size? Yes.
Is it ok to go on a rant about Microsoft's hidden costs? Definitely, in fact I'm sure there's going to be a few +5 insightfuls with that theme.
Is it ok to wig out and claim that Microsoft is cutting deals with Asus to insure the downfall of Linux? No. You're wasting your time--spend it more constructively coding open source or lobbying for your company to use open source.
Asus is free to do as they please and if Microsoft thinks it's a good business move, let them. The funny thing about open source is that you don't have to promote it to end users. It's slowly and steadily being adopted. The end state is open source for everyone everywhere; it's unavoidable; it's just a question of when it happens (and no, I'm not going to personify software or data as 'wanting' to be free because it's about what improves the community not what software 'wants'). As long as Microsoft isn't doing something shady to keep Linux out of the Enterprise, they can do whatever they want. I don't even know how they could do that. If you look at the trends, whatever is adopted by the Enterprise is usually adopted by the single consumer in due time. DoD is starting to mandate open source also.
Ubuntu 8.04 was a marked improvement over 7.10. Aero was on par with XP. Microsoft has parked themselves at the head of the pack and are now relying on Business and Marketing to promote a Technology. It's a good sign of bad times for Microsoft.
So why is everyone fretting? Just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Please, don't be one of those guys who preach about open source in a RMS religious zealot style to end users who just want their goddamn iPod to work on their home machine (Oh, by the way, I was pleasantly surprised to find that my shuffle Just Worked when I attached it to Ubuntu 8.04). You're doing more harm than good.
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to buy a cheapo WRT54Gv5 version of the wireless router, you get it packed with VxWorks, some kind of crappy and proprietary OS installed in DLink routers. If you want to have a stable and reliable router, you go with the WRT54GL (L for Linux), which is the "deluxe" Linux version.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong, you fail it
Linux Out of the Real World
July 1st, 1997 by Sebastian Kuzminsky in
* Industry News
Debian Linux has taken flight aboard the Space Shuttle Columbia.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:4, Funny)
it is so modular and low-level that the end result is as crappy as you want it to be, but not as VxWorks have made you crap it.
Say Wha?!
Client: "Hey, I wanna make a car"
VxWorks: "Okay. Here's lego blocks. They are certified and been used by thousands of high-profile companies before you, so they are guaranteed a high level of quality."
Client: "Hey, I've done my car, but it's crappy"
Whose fault is it?
(( PS: if you're talking about my english, I think it is correct, though it's not my native tongue ))
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Funny)
Only on Slashdot will someone mention a "Brazilian model" and be talking about some sort of router. Tragic!
Parent
It does show the cost of Windows. (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps, without Microsoft interference, Asus would have a $400 12 GB model and a $500 20 GB model. That would more closely match the US prices and falling hardware prices.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Interesting)
If only the XP version is available at "mass-market retailers", that is a bit suspicious but understandable. Users with little experience may be better off if a salesperson explains the difference to them. Competent salespersons tend to be rare at supermarkets.
Overall, I don't see much evidence of shady deals here.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
And yet... (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess if they're positioning this thing as a traditional laptop, it makes sense to be concerned about people's expectations. But I thought the Eee was marketed as an internet appliance that you shouldn't expect to be able to run iTunes on. And the limited capacity (especially of the XP model) leaves little room for big apps like iTunes.
If you ask me, the price point has moved beyond the old, cheap, impulse buy model. It's certainly a better deal than a Mac Air, but Asus is starting to confuse the new category they helped define. And maybe that's by design. Lots of attention and hype. Now they're trying to redirect it toward their higher-margin offerings.
Still doesn't justify charging more to leave off Windows. Anti-trust enforcement is a joke.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Insightful)
1.(The Apple way) Be able to control everything, from the metal to the display. If you can make everything the way you want it to be, you can make things work by design.
2. (The Microsoft way) Be able to contol everyone, from the hardware manufacturers to the software developers. If you can make everybody make things the way you want them to be, you can make things work by fiat.
3. (The F/OSS way) Be able to know everything, from the hardware registers to the software code. If you know everything about the components you use, you can make things work by hacking.
The reason RMS is so adamant about making things free is because we, as end users, have no other way to make them work for us.
Parent
Re:None of those ways "work" (Score:5, Insightful)
1.) Either the access point isn't an Apple product, and thereby outside of their control, or there really is a problem in their wifi implementation, which is a failure to adhere to their approach, not a failure of their approach in general.
2.) Microsoft's hegemony isn't universal, and it is certainly not omnipotent. They can get most people to follow their rules, but even those that choose to will not always follow all of the rules, or follow them properly. Again, this is because they don't control everyone, which is a failure to fully implement the approach, not a failure of the approach itself.
3.) You're quite right that not every user wants to hack their system to make it work. The F/OSS implementation is to provide enough users who can and do hack their systems to make it work, and having those users share the fruits of their labor with the rest of the community. Ideally, the manufacturers of hardware and developers of software would become a part of that community, and therefore they would be the "geeks", spreading the use of their product would be their "itch", and the hacking would be done by them to the benefit of their users. Again, the implementation of this approach is not universal, and so it doesn't make everything "Just Work".
There may be other approaches that I've not thought about, but if any of these three were to be successfully implemented, then they could make everything "Just Work". As it is, some organizations have produced various incarnations of these approaches with mixed levels of success, with Apple coming the closest to realizing the ideal of their chosen approach.
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Informative)
Page 29:
Page 33: Page 34: I don't know how much has changed since their conviction, but I would assume that, even if they aren't allowed to do exactly that anymore, they've just found workarounds to achieve the same results (as evidenced here).Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:12 GB HDD Vs 20 GB HDD (Score:4, Informative)
Checking the ASUS online store in Australia.. http://www.asusnotebook.com.au/eee-pc.php
I see the following:
Both models have 20GB of storage
Windows Version is $799 AUD
Linux Version is $649 AUD
If you pre-order now.
So I think they have not checked their facts!
Parent
Even if MS subsidizes.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Shameless plug for a local by a local (Score:5, Interesting)
I've bought all my stuff from them for well over a decade. They opened a shop when I lived in Bayswater, had doom parties, piles of second hand stuff, kept the local teenagers busy, ect. They become pretty big now and lost a bit of that garage feel but they are still light years ahead of ASUS. I've lived by the beach now for ~3yrs but still browse online and pick it up from the warehouse. Not even sure the same guys own it but they will sell you a naked PC, pre-configured, built to order, pre-installed distro, distro on disc, windows, whaterver your poision,,,err...passion.
I've had problems but I've had them fixed without fuss.
Disclaimer: I've been a proffesional developer for ~20yrs. The only relationship I have with bitronics is as a customer, caveate emptor, shop around, and all that.
Awesome! That means a less-expensive Linux model! (Score:4, Interesting)
When I buy computers in general, I buy it with the smallest drive and least amount of RAM possible. I know I'm going to upgrade anyway, but the prices the OEMs charge for RAM upgrades and larger drives is ridiculous. Buying with the intent of upgrading is a nice way to save some money if you have the skill and confidence to open it up.
By the way... probably not a correct place to put this new information, but yesterday I came across something that shocked the hell out of me. On Dell's support site, I discovered that not only is there a DOS/Windows BIOS update utility for the Precision M4300, but a Linux version as well!! That has got to be the first Linux BIOS update utility I have ever seen. Perhaps others have seen this, but it was a first for me and Dell is doing it. Unfortunately, my Latitude doesn't have the Linux BIOS update method available yet so I'm still booting from flash drive DOS for updates, but perhaps it's only a matter of time.
Re:Awesome! That means a less-expensive Linux mode (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Awesome! That means a less-expensive Linux mode (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
As an early adopter of the Eee PC (Score:5, Interesting)
The Eee PC was my first step out of the MS upgrade treadmill nightmare, and you want to pull me right back? Sorry, no can do.
Re:As an early adopter of the Eee PC (Score:5, Insightful)
"Commitment" to Linux? Are you serious?
ASUS are a for-profit corporation. They're going to do whatever it takes to sell the most computers at the greatest profit. In the case of the Eee, they found that they could sell a computer without windows as long as it was extremely inexpensive.
If Microsoft offers an incentive to bundle Windows with their entry-level laptop, Asus are going to take it, as it adds value to their product. They'd be stupid not to.
Note here that you can still very easily install linux on the Windows machine, and that the Linux model is only $50AUD extra, and includes 8gb extra flash storage (which is probably easily worth the $50 extra to most customers).
Parent
It's because ... (Score:5, Funny)
Could this actually be good for linux? (Score:5, Interesting)
In this case, the Linux option is more expensive, and demonstrably superior (larger storage, boots quicker, comes with a much wider selection of applications). How many people will consider the extra $50 worth it for a significantly better package?
Also perhaps people might like to buy the cheaper windows version, and then "pirate" linux to get some of the additional features only usually available on the more expensive model?
Re:Could this actually be good for linux? (Score:4, Interesting)
Good idea. Maybe someone should set up a "PirateLinux.com" website to help consumers find various versions of Linux for free.
Parent
In my country, we call that dumping (Score:4, Insightful)
Crapware? (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux always cheaper than Windows (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't have to waste time scanning for malware constantly or defragging my linux box, so I save time.
I don't have to buy additional commercial software and pay for license keys or trust closed binary warezed alternatives.
In the long run, no matter how much you pay in the store, Linux saves you money and time.
And I don't support a convicted monopoly who has a history of criminal activities across the globe.
asus moves toward obscurity (Score:5, Insightful)
Find the holes!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Find the holes!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Asus creates then loses the "Eee pc" market? (Score:4, Insightful)
Asus seem to be determined to lose this new market they created (so new it hardly even has a name) as quickly as they created it. At $500-600 this is now competing with traditional laptops - an underpowered competitor in a large field as opposed to owning a new category they created. Seems dumb to me.
Pricing the Windows model below the Linux one seems to be another bizarre step in the wrong direction.I assumed they were using Linux for the strategic/pricing advantage it gave, but they just threw that advantage out of the window.
Oh, well... at least Asus proved there is a market for a cheap & cheerful $249 notebook / internet appliance... I guess it'll be up to another company to actually take advantage of that market!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)
To me, the whole point of the eee is that it finally lets linux and windows have an unbiased competition with the market for judge: people won't just keep windows because it's preinstalled ( except of course taking linux still means "switching" to something less familliar).
If I was australian and wanted to buy one, I'd throw in the extra cash to show that linux users exist as a demographic.
Parent
Re:How? (Score:4, Insightful)
And this demonstrates that we will never have unbiased (or fair) competition as long as one of the competitors is Microsoft.
So play 'em at their own game. Hold installfests in the parking lots of places selling the things. Whoop it up. FOSS isn't driven by "market share," it's driven by the passion of its developers and users. It isn't going anywhere.
Microsoft may be able to point at some meaningless marketing numbers and say "see, people are choosing Windows, even when Linux is more expensive" and I bet some PHBs will even think that statement makes sense. Doesn't matter, Microsoft will run out of money eventually and FOSS will still be there.
Parent
Re:How? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am Australian and I would do the same if I wanted one.
This is a bit off the topic of the original story, but hopefully relates to the thread.
Another good trick I used just recently to show that there is a market for Linux in Australia is to complain about the OEM OS that comes machines from the viewpoint of statutory warranty.
I bought a notebook which, according to the display in the shop, came with Vista Home Premium. According to MS, Vista home premium has excellent repair tools and can be installed on a 40GB partition, but the version on my notebook could only be installed by wiping the entire machine and taking up the 150GB of the 160 GB disk.
I argued that what they gave me was not Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium as advertised. I pointed out that the box including the term "OEM" did not fully explain the limitations of the included software and that reasonable research into Vista on the Microsoft site gave me a completely different idea of what I was buying. It wasn't until after I opened the box, installed Linux and then wanted to put Vista on a 40GB partition for testing purposes that I found out about the limitations, and then it was only after I called support.
After a several conversations with customer service and tech support, I finally got them to pay for full installation media from Microsoft. I know MS still got their money, but the story has spread through the OEM about how Ubuntu is easier to use and quicker on my notebook than Vista and I have soured the relationship further between MS and a supplier, which according to some candid conversations with support and business people within the supplier is already pretty sour.
I should stress that all the way through the process I was polite. Every time customer service attempted to transfer me to tech support, I explained that the problem was not a technical one, but a business one, namely that they had to provide Vista Home Premium as described on the Microsoft site or they were in breach of the statutory warranty. Every time they said "We don't support downgrading the unit," I politely corrected them, informing them I had upgraded it. Every time they made reference to the "recovery partition", I corrected them telling them that from a customer's point of view wiping the entire system clean is no recovery.
Sure I am only one person, but seeing as you can no longer get a refund for just the OS on an OEM product, if everyone does what I have done instead of silently installing Linux, the manufacturers will start to see that there is a market for desktop Linux here.
Parent
Of cousrse they're subsidizing (Score:5, Informative)
To keep people using XP, MS is probably giving away (or close to it) the licenses to ASUS. Combined with the fact that the Xandros is a commercial distro that Asus needs to provide updates for and the additional 8GB of space in the Linux version, it's not terribly suprising.
I'm typing this post on an EEE 4G now, and I'm really pleased with the built in Xandros. Lightweight, Word/Excel/PowerPoint compatible, not prone to viruses. If I was in the market for a new EEE for the price difference and the ability to dual boot with no additional cost I'd probably buy the Windows version and put Ubuntu on it. I have a few Windows specific apps still...
Parent
Re:Of cousrse they're subsidizing (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:How? (Score:5, Interesting)
It wouldn't surprise me if there was a similar offer here, plus another offer for selling only the Windows Eees in "select retailers".
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Are you kidding? Getting Windows to run on a new piece of hardware is a shitload of work. Among other things, out of the box, Windows lacks a lot of drivers.
Standard Linux distributions basically just boots on the Eee PC (I installed Ubuntu on mine) with essentially no extra work or customization, and installing it is a few clicks.
Re:Forget the cost of production (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all about public perception. The Linux machine can't run Windows apps (at least I don't think WINE's included, and WINE's never a good answer to that problem anyway.) Therefore, it's worse in many people's eyes.
So, now, the Linux machine is more expensive, and perceived to be worse.
This is not good if you want Linux to succeed in the marketplace.
Parent
Re:Forget the cost of production (Score:4, Insightful)
Almost everything they do is web-based and no-one's going to bat an eye once they're told that OpenOffice is $0, works almost exactly like MS Office and can open/save to MS Office documents without a hitch. (Sure, there are exceptions to that, but average consumer isn't going to run into those obscure issues.)
The average consumer might even get outright excited when you mention that merely using Firefox on Xandros gives them better protection from virii and malware than XP, even if they'd paid for a copy of Norton or McAfee. (And without the slowdowns, compatibility problems and hassle of those packages)
And since the eee PC is an intensely personal sort of kit, it's doubtful that Joe or Jane Six-pack is going to pass on it just because it won't supplant the family PC that their kids run games on.
The eee PC simply doesn't have to match up to XP like desktop linux would. It doesn't have to solve all of someone's computing needs. It just needs to be good at the tasks people want a subnotebook for (almost entirely web usage and basic document creation).
Parent
A herring incarnadine... (Score:5, Insightful)
Red herring. This isn't about us, it's about Microsoft buying market share.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Balmer: I... drink... your... milkshake!
[sucking sound]
Balmer: I drink it up!
Linux people: Don't bully me, Steve!
Re:Hear hear (Score:4, Informative)
But for many years it used to be Microsoft's best selling point in comparison to Linux:
Windows and Microsoft applications in general are easy to get started with. Only recently, Linux distributions (especially Ubuntu) have managed to catch up in that regard. If you want to sell to a wide audience, an "easy" interface is good.
Of course, it should also have an easily accessible terminal emulation so the gurus can hack on their config files
Parent
Re:Hear hear (Score:4, Insightful)
I am concerned that those unfamiliar with Linux will see this and conclude that Linux is expensive rather than
MS has done a good job of making Windows look like the best choice, and IMO this should be investigated using lawyers and stuff as it makes no sense whatsoever if you look at it from the point of view that MS would never stoop to any dirty tricks. Of course, if you are even a tiny bit cynical you can't help but see that this is obviously a questionable business deal that needs to be investigated by those that would destroy monopolies.
Parent
Re:Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, the biggest reason is to give a clear message that you don't want Windows. People are scrapping their default Windows installs for Linux all the time, but this won't change the huge market share of Windows, which in turn affects hardware and software makers.
Parent