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Negroponte Says Windows 'Runs Well' On XO Laptop 339

Stony Stevenson alerts us to comments from OLPC founder Nicholas Negroponte indicating his approval of Windows' performance on the XO laptop. Negroponte said in an email, "Sugar needs a wider basis, to run on more Linux platforms and to run under Windows." The full email is available at OLPC News. He was also quoted by the Associated Press as saying that Sugar "didn't have a software architect who did it in a crisp way," and cited the lack of Flash as an example. Negroponte continued, "There are several examples like that, that we have to address without worrying about the fundamentalism in some of the open-source community. One can be an open-source advocate without being an open-source fundamentalist."
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Negroponte Says Windows 'Runs Well' On XO Laptop

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  • Lack of Flash?!?!?! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by schon ( 31600 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:08PM (#23177478)
    Sorry, he's citing lack of Flash as an example of open source failing?!??!

    The reason they went with Gnash in the first place was because the Adobe Flash player needs more CPU power than the entire damn machine had available.

    How is hell is MS's bloatware supposed to fix that?
  • Re:What version (Score:2, Interesting)

    by danbert8 ( 1024253 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:20PM (#23177556)
    After dutifully checking all three linked articles, not one of them specifies a version of Windows that "runs well". Just remember that poor foreign kids when Microsoft charges you $100 bucks for software they no longer support.
  • Apple (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:23PM (#23177580)
    Apple was willing to provide the OS for free, but were denied because it wouldn't be open source. Now Windows is OK?
  • by Cassius Corodes ( 1084513 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:38PM (#23177686)
    I'm very tired of hearing people use the world fundamentalist in any and every context.

    You can be an open source fanatic, but you cannot be an open source fundamentalist.

    Stop. Think about the meaning of the words you are using. Select correct words. Continue.
  • don't I know it (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thermian ( 1267986 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:40PM (#23177704)
    I've fallen out with some friends because even though I'm an open source developer, and have been for the last five years, I'm still in favour of closed source for some applications.

    I am both amazed and dismayed by the extent to which such issues effect people.

    Not only that, but almost everyone I know who has been what I would call a rabid opponent of proprietary code haven't themselves released any open source code. They just download the free stuff and get angry about the non free code without a single opinion that wasn't borrowed from someone else.

    It seems to me that the fashion is that open source == hates proprietary. This is a nieve viewpoint in my opinion.

  • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:41PM (#23177708)
    You nailed it. The key insight of the OLPC was that it needed to be ultra-low power and not rely on a lot of infrastructure. e.g. it's not so easy to run out and buy a USB cable on Nahru.

    Thus I always chuckle when I see comparisons to this or that better performing laptop. Of course it's possible to get cheap and faster by going to high power. And you can add more features again by adding power. They were going for cheap and low power.

    I think what may have happened here is that windows is now learning to play nice with flash memory and windows CE is presumably learning to play nice with batteries.

    The other thing is that the world is moving towards cloud computing. Now while their may not be a cloud available to bushmen in Nairobi. it's not unthinkable that schools might be able to serve apps locally. And MS is building that infrastructure.

    So maybe Microsoft is up to the task.

    The problem MS will face I suspect is that they lack an agile resizable code base like Linux and Apple have. Windows CE and Windows XP only are simmilar in their look. So this may be a complete blank sheet. Sure XP will run but will it meet the original driver of low power? I suspect not out of the box otherwise it would be Window CE instead.

    But MS does have the dowry and an incentive. And the OLPC does need the cash. So it might be a successful arranged marriage. Or maybe it will be one of those Weddings where the groom tosses the bride on the funeral pyre.

  • Re:Screw Sugar (Score:2, Interesting)

    by cretog8 ( 144589 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @08:51PM (#23177798)
    This turns out to be a matter of taste, for users like us. And I'll defer to the folks using them with kids to decide what's better with the kids.

    Anyway, a lot of what you say as negatives, I like. I don't know this for sure, but I attribute the slowness to two things about Sugar--it's in Python, and it's handling communication. The communication is a major feature. The fact that it's in Python means it's hackable.

    So, for instance, you & I (and almost everyone else) gets annoyed with the frame popping up when the cursor gets near the corner. It's an easy fix in the code to stop that from happening. I can go in with a non-programmer 11-year-old, and show them how to change that! That's so cool.

    I've also decided that Journal rocks (well, OK, rocks except for some bugginess). I'd switch to that over my directory tree on my Mac if it was possible.
  • No big deal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by burnin1965 ( 535071 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @09:01PM (#23177848) Homepage
    When this constructionism project started and they were testing laptops in Cambodia I'll bet they were running Windows. Everyone needs to keep in mind that its not about the laptop or the software but the educational project. Arguably Open Source Software and the ideology of the project go hand in hand, but one is not absolutely necessary for the other.

    I read the letter on the OLPC site and the article about Windows running well on the XO, but I couldn't get to the article that mentioned flash. Flash in my opinion is the scourge of the internet these days, and don't go off on a youtube rant, internet video and streaming codecs were available before flash.

    From what I've read nothing has really changed, Windows on OLPC was in the works and it doesn't mean that linux will be dumped. So much for the sensationalist headlines. You have media outlets and scumbag corporate leaders who will juice this for all its worth but really it means nothing.

    I will say that it appears from Negroponte's message that there may be some friction between the Sugar developers and Negroponte probably concerning the porting of Sugar to Windows. He is welcome to his view but really it has absolutely nothing to do with Open Source Fundamentalism.

    If the open source developers of Sugar are balking at porting their work to Windows it should be no surprise, unless you've been living in a vacuum for the past 10 years. The Microsoft Corporation has not only been found guilty of using illegal business tactics to destroy competition in the market to maintain their ludicrous profit margins but they have also been on a non-stop PR harassment campaign specifically targeted against the same developers who wrote Sugar.

    In the end it matters not, if Negroponte wants Sugar on Windows all he has to do is ask that wealthy corporation to invest some of their ill gotten gains in porting the open source code themselves. After all, its not like Microsoft's developers aren't used to leeching off the open source community to support their proprietary products. What would be interesting is seeing the response he gets to using open source code in a high profile project considering Microsoft has labeled it a cancer.

  • Re:who wins? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by domatic ( 1128127 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @09:17PM (#23177944)

    My guess is this outcome was planned from the start. My guess OLPC got from us (us being the OS/FS crowd) exactly what they wanted. Which was exactly what Asus got. Microsoft's attention.



    If true, then idealistic hardware and software designers need to remember this example the next time they are approached by someone like Negroponte. I have no problem with helping kids but it's starting to sound to me like the open source talent was cynically used to attain this end.
  • Re:who wins? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by schwaang ( 667808 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @09:30PM (#23178046)
    This seems doubtful to me, but it's classic ./ paranoia of the type I'm constantly guilty of.

    The truth is, who knows what's going on in Negroponte's head? He isn't being all that forthcoming, even with the recent statement. From what he has said, he seems to think that availability of Windows will end up in more XO's being distributed.

    So maybe countries are demanding it, and you can imagine that any country thinking of buying into the XO is going to have Microsoft/Intel Classmate reps on their other shoulder, saying "but does it run Windows? This one does".

    The funny thing about this to me is that lots of developing countries are skipping generations of technology, like going straight to wireless phones without ever having laid copper Ma-Bell style.

    And here they have a chance to skip the horrors of Microsoft and go straight to Linux (which the developed world is coming around to), but instead they think they want XP. These are probably the same countries buying Camel cigarettes now that we've stopped smoking. Oh well.
  • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @09:53PM (#23178192) Homepage Journal
    Doesn't anyone remember reading Negroponte's "last word" column in the first few years of _Wired_ magazine? He was always wrong, every month. He even published a book as monument to his wrongness, _Being Digital_ (which could have been called "0" for its return value).

    He also helped start the OLPC project, which couldn't get anywhere while he was "helping".

    Why does anyone listen to him anymore, just because MIT was fool enough to give him money for a Media Lab once upon a time (a long long time ago)?
  • by seandiggity ( 992657 ) on Wednesday April 23, 2008 @11:06PM (#23178750) Homepage
    Please point me to these "bushmen in Nairobi" (a huge bustling city). I bet "them thar Injuns" don't know the ways of the computing cloud either.
  • Re:No kidding (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @12:53AM (#23179336)
    I gave up trying to get it to connect to a hidden ssid. Amazing hardware, but pathetic software.

    You're not supposed to hide SSIDs. If you break the implementation of the AP, don't blame a client for not connecting.

    If this was done deliberately, see this [zdnet.com] for why it's "worse than no wireless security at all".

  • by Hozza ( 1073224 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @04:14AM (#23180142)
    You know the Baylis radio project turned into a successful company right? They even make wind up generators for the OLPC: http://www.freeplayenergy.com/ [freeplayenergy.com] Mind you, one thing that Baylis and his colleagues did right was to go to Africa with a selection of prototypes to see which features were most wanted. IIRC they'd been trying to make it look small and cool, as you would for the European market, but the most popular prototype was the biggest and loudest. I wonder if the OLPC group could have learnt something from that?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 24, 2008 @04:29AM (#23180188)
    I'm all against the MS monopoly, I try to steer clear of MS products when I can. That said, to be really really honest, if WinXP does better in providing education to these kids, and it runs properly on the machine, and it actually has advantages over Linux, then it's the OS to choose. If Linux somehow falls short of providing what the kids need (I'm not aware of either OS being better or worse for the purpose, by the way, and I'm not gonna speculate), then trying to hang on to Linux simply because it's not MS is just about as selfish as the picture you paint of MS taking over the poor 3rd world countries. I have a hunch that getting locked into an MS product (which they probably wouldn't pay for anyhow) is not that big of a concern they have compared to a lot of other day-to-day issues they may have.
  • Re:Screw Sugar (Score:3, Interesting)

    by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @06:05AM (#23180456)
    Really? I'd be kinda surprised if an 11-year-old can figure out the Sugar code. I looked at how feasible it'd be to modify BlockParty here [wordpress.com]. Basically, there are no quality bars for Sugar code - some of the shipped apps have no comments or other documentation whatsoever. What's more, they use advanced APIs and techniques. Python doesn't really improve the readability either, as you have the same problem you have when reading any large Python codebase - there are no type declarations to help you find your way around.
  • by Enderandrew ( 866215 ) <enderandrew&gmail,com> on Thursday April 24, 2008 @07:55AM (#23180852) Homepage Journal
    There was a county recently (Nigeria?) had ordered a whole bunch of Linux PCs with Mandriva pre-installed, said price was a huge factor, and then at the last moment said they were going to install Windows on every one of them. In situations like that, I really believe they were at the very least offered the Windows licenses for free, and perhaps paid to install Windows. Microsoft doesn't want an entire generation of kids growing up learning Linux. Microsoft has shown they will take a loss to establish market share.

    I'd be shocked if Microsoft charges more than $5-$10 for Windows on the XO. More than likely they'll "donate" the license to charity and take a tax write off to establish market share.
  • by westlake ( 615356 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @09:16AM (#23181546)
    You know the Baylis radio project turned into a successful company right? IIRC they'd been trying to make it look small and cool, as you would for the European market, but the most popular prototype was the biggest and loudest. I wonder if the OLPC group could have learnt something from that?

    Like OLPC, the original Bayless Freeplay Plus Radio [ccrane.com] was designed for local production.

    The problem is that the precision manufacturer in Asia can also produce a rugged, reliable, clockwork dynamo.

    He can package more sophisticated electronics and he can beat your price anywhere in the world. Midland XT511 Dynamo 22-Channel FRS/GMRS Emergency Crank Radio [amazon.com]

    The $67 three pound Midland may not be best-of-breed - but it is an easily portable dynamo powered transceiver and battery charger with AM/FM radio, NOAA weather radio and alerts.

  • by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @10:51AM (#23182906) Journal

    ARM would have given them cheaper and lower power (that's why your phone isn't x86) and runs Linux very well. No, they wanted to keep Windows capable.

    x86 isn't just for Windows. The Geode processor is extremely low power, and I doubt there's an ARM CPU out there that can outperform it while being lower power. Sure, XScale CPUs have ridiculously high MHz numbers, but they still perform like crap.

    And x86 isn't just "Windows capable". It's also the most well supported platform for Linux. Have you ever tried to use Linux on any other architecture? It's a huge mess of GCC versions that don't quite generate legal code, and software that won't compile because of all the x86 GCCisms. If you stick strictly to the binary packages provided by some distro, you'll probably get by without anything being too buggy, but as soon as you need to compile anything yourself, expect a mess of weird problems, and terrible performance. It "works" but it's far from user-friendly.
  • Re:Screw Sugar (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cretog8 ( 144589 ) on Thursday April 24, 2008 @11:02AM (#23183138)

    This is just about the worst approach to configuration I can think of.

    Good: UI tools provided to configure behaviors ("Control Panel")
    Bad: must use a text editor to modify a config file
    Ugly: must edit the source code of the application itself
    That makes perfect sense, but I still think it's wrong (in this context).

    It's a DIY thing. Being able to futz with the code makes what you've done more personal and gives you a whole lot more understanding of what's going on. It also shows you that you can mess with things beyond the 10 options a pop-up box might give you.

    You can walk an 11-year-old through the process, but is there any chance an 11-year-old would discover how to do it without your guidance?
    Depends on the kid. This kid, no, they've never done any programming at all. Being "walked through the process" is how you start to get familiar with almost anything, whether you're walked through by a book, teacher, or another kid.

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