An anonymous reader writes "AT&T is focusing on the batteries supplied by Avestor as the cause of its 2006 equipment explosion in a suburban Houston neighborhood. The carrier says it has 17,000 of those same batteries still in its network. Some photos of the equipment that was shredded in the blast are also available."
no... they'll mod it "funny" because he was making a *joke*, and pretty much every lame joke gets modded funny on this site. BTW, you can chill out, because despite about 50 bagillion submissions (mine being one), the story about AT&T censoring pearl jam's anti-bush lyrics [theregister.co.uk] never made it onto slashdot (at least, I haven't been able to find it anywhere), despite it concerning net neutrality and webcasts, and despite it being on the front page of google news for 3 days straight. Things aren't quite as slan
it concerns net neutrality because it shows that AT&T cannot be trusted with power over the internet. This is a case of them abusing such power. It's not the same power they would have if they could determine what gets to flow through their pipes, but it all comes back to whether or not we can trust them with that power. This is why people would talk about net neutrality during all the wire-tapping shenanigans.
"It's 1 year later, and we still don't have a clue waht the hell is going wrong, it could happen again any time, so what we're going to do is blame a relatively cheap component manufactured by a third party and replace it.
So going after the most likely cause, a rechargeable battery that vented hydrogen gas, is somehow wrong?
Cars blow up, too. And so do transformers filled with oil. And steam boilers at factories. Those are real disasters. I think this "reporting" is just a lame attempt at mudslinging AT&T.
The cause of most explosions are explained before they've even been cleaned up (I don't mean, oh, its a bomb, I mean the actual chemicals invlovled etc) even if they are looking at the right thing now, they are shockingly slow at investigating.
I think this "reporting" is just a lame attempt at mudslinging AT&T.
And this so-called reporting is extremely juvenile. From one of the photo captions: "Here's what AT&T saw as it rolled up to the scene of the explosion. Imagine if that hunk of fence had been some old cougar weeding her garden. Would have left a mark, no?" Very mature, guys.
My thought would be: What else in the cabinet could cause such an explosion? I mean, the equipment should be fused; there should be enough circuit breakers and fuses in the lines to prevent electricity from creating such a large bang; so a short or capacitor shouldn't do it. Properly constructed circuit boards aren't even all that flammable, much less explosive enough to destroy a cabinet.
What's the most reactive chemical area around? The battery. It's a lithium type - and warns that it could catch fire/explode if damaged.
It's certainly not a 'cheap component' - it's stated to be more expensive than other battery types.
Elecrticity does not explode. Most electronic equipment does not explode. Only electronics that contain chemicals that behave badly when exposed to heat, pressure, etc. Capacitors and batteries both store large amounts of energy in a chemical state, (which can change to gasious) and are the primary "explosives" in electronics. A sufficiently high current in most anything will cause rapid expansion of air however, which can make semiconductors explode, but not on nearly so grand a scale as this. I've se
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
You most certainly do, seeing as how you mostly managed to restate what I said.
Elecrticity does not explode
No it doesn't, but under the right circumstances it can heat something so fast and hard that it effectively explodes. Saw/heard it once when they tried replacing a fuse on a power line that had shorted closed next to our building(we were on generator at the time). It sounded enough like a gunshot to make me duck.
Just because a battery has Li in it does not mean it's dangerous to handle. (at least, not if it's designed sensibly) Most laptop computer batteries nowadays are LiIo which is not too different. Yes the primary fuses on the poles can be spectacular when they go. Again you've got a conductor (fusable link) inside the cartridge and when the power co cuts in the mains and there's still a short (which can be hard to tell in advance) the link basically vaporizes instantly and superheats the inside of the cartri
Just because a battery has Li in it does not mean it's dangerous to handle. (at least, not if it's designed sensibly) Most laptop computer batteries nowadays are LiIo which is not too different.
I was just relaying the recommendations placed in the instruction manuals by the company that made the batteries. Oh, and it's not like laptop batteries have a perfect safety record [cpsc.gov] either.
They may be similar, but from my understanding, laptop LiIon batteries still use electrolyte, of with the presumably exploded ba
Fuses should blow long before voltages get to the levels needed to make even a bang audible outside the cabinet.
Rising voltage does not blow fuses. Rising current does. Rising voltage actually makes fuses blow at higher current levels than they should, which is why you have to use special fuses in high voltage circuits.
Wow, you are being very picky today. Saying that "rising voltage does not blow fuses, rising current does" is irrelevant... There was nothing technically wrong with parent's observation on the behaviour of protection circuits when presented with excessive voltage. Who knows, a transient voltage suppressor may be protecting the load as well as that fuse, and the TVS may provide that current to make the fuse blow on over-voltage. My background is admittedly low power engineering, albeit in hazardous areas (int
The batteries implicated in the fires were advanced, very expensive lithium-metal-polymer [telephonyonline.com] types developed and built by Avestor. They were built for long-life outdoor installations: rated for -40C to 65C, temperature regulated, self monitoring: these were no low end batteries! AT&T retained an independent failure investigation quoted here [lightreading.com], which "...found that the battery design was sound, as were the safety features, and concluded that the risk of hazardous failures with this battery is as low, if not l
Stuff like that happens when you put a large amount of energy in a small volume. I've seen pictures of helicopters that were destroyed when their ni-cad batteries went into thermal runaway due to an electrical fault.
Even though the investigation isn't over,the replacement battery for Li Polymer(whatever) will be NiCad (using a subsidary (of course)). They have a proven record of being reliable for ten years.
However if there is still a tendency to explode, burn, melt such battery vaults should be made stronger(and maybe more tamper proof).
Is it such a slow news cycle that any exploding Li battery news again?
It's news to me.
Transformers do explode every so often (though not too often), but it's usually because of really bad weather or electrical power-line snafus. Phone transformers exploding because they contain batteries which are developing a history of being explosive--which likely wasn't known when the transformers were commissioned--is news.
The replacement for LiPos will not be NiCd batteries.
NiCds have a much lower energy density than LiPos -- which is exactly why people use LiPos rather than NiCds. The self discharge rate for NiCds is higher as well, and they need a little care taken when charging them to prevent voltage depression (well, many people call it memory, but that's another thing entirely.)
If LiPos are to be replaced, A123 batteries are a more likely replacement, though for things like this where weight and size shouldn'
The replacement for LiPos will not be NiCd batteries.
... or maybe I'm wrong. I'm familiar with the
sealed NiCd batteries [wikipedia.org], but not really with the flooded variety [wikipedia.org] which appear to be as good a fit for this sort of thing as Lead-acid batteries are. (The sealed ones don't appear to be quite as good of a fit.)
The problem with ni-cad batteries is real, see Federal Aviation Administration Advisory Circular 00-33A, "Nickel-Cadmium Battery Operational, Maintenance, and Overhaul Practices".
These sorts of problems generally aren't specific to NiCd batteries.
In any event, the problem with LiPos is that the batteries themselves are flammable. With NiCds, they can turn into hot steamers, or can cause fires by getting so hot that they cause whatever is next to them to burn, or can fuel a fire by feeding a short circuit somewhere else, but they themselves don't burn. They can vent so violently that they sort of explode, but there's no fire involved. Note that the chemistry of NiMH cells is
The Sony Ericsson phone you just bought is defective by design. A google search will show up numerous complaints of no/low signal, slow software, and inability to hold a call. Contact Jennifer Atwood (manager of their customer service department) to have it replaced with a functioning model. If you do not get a positive result, you can always email the president of Sony-Ericsson worldwide... he listens and gets things done. Email me and I will send you specific contact details for people at Sony Ericsson wh
...and what do you mean is a functioning model? I specifically bought this phone because of bluetooth and camera. And would SE actually replace a phone that I bought off of ebay?
that they have ruled out the local prankster or animal intrusion.
It's not surprising that batteries can go ballistic. That happens now and then.
From what can be seen from the pictures the design wasn't sufficient to contain the batteries and any possible cause for explosion there. Maybe the designer didn't think about that or wanted to do a cheap job.
I'm not sure what types of batteries they were using, but standard lead-acid batteries vent hydrogen during charging. If you don't make provisions for the removal of it and it builds up in the cabinet, one tiny spark and you've got yourself a little bomb sitting there.
And the phone lines are near the power lines, so lots of opportunities for little sparks...
But I hear that the batteries in question are li-poly. I don't think they vent hydrogen; they just appear to have unfortunate internal similarities to C4 explosive when they're made wrong.
Not so much of the "little sparks"; yes there are relays still inside that sort of gear, but they're reed relays with the contacts sealed in a nitrogen atmosphere. What you do find, however, is cct breakers and contactors on the main power feed & internal distribution. But the usual explosive trigger is the sparks from the cells themselves as they self-destruct...
We used to get 1 or 2 incidents like this a year in Aus, mostly in the far north. The SLA batteries used here don't take kindly to temps above
There are all sorts of economic forces in play pushing for higher energy density batteries.
I can't tell you what's next, battery technology wise, but it will have more explosive potential then Lithium batteries.
In 100 years kids will deliberately short small batteries to make them explode. Unless the world comes to it's senses and continues to allow access to guns and reloading supplies. In the areas that do lucky kids will continue to blow things up the old fashioned way...When I was a kid, we made ou
gee. not only are they ugly but potentially deadly too.
these are significantly large, noisy cluster boxes that under existing statute att feels can be installed anywhere, at the end of driveways in front of private homes etc. we now have these all over town and are currently involved in negotiations w/att to minimise their aesthetic impact.
now i suppose we'll have to go back and negotiate their explosive impact too.
It takes a huge force to penetrate the casing or to throw the wheel off the gimbals. Not only does it not happen very often but without blowing up the spacecraft that carries it or running a big sharp pointy chuck of hardened steel into it it seems easy to avoid. If you are using this for a battery for a house a business or a telco you can even bury them in the ground so if they do have a problem its no big deal. Caterpillar makes them for god sakes. They now coat internal surfaces with nylon, if the flywhee
That'd be very unsurprising, but not terribly enlightening.
I don't remember ever seeing a product "Made in America". Nearly everything comes from China these days, including the vast majority of the things sold under american brands.
Just one more reason I am wanting to move out of the US. Hell I just got back from Japan a few days ago after a months vacation. You know how much stuff I saw that said Made in China on it? Very little, at that it was usually cheap crap like stuffed toys. Most everything I saw in that country was made in Japan. Something about quality and a little national pride. Oh how I wish the general populous of the US cared about either. Stuff usually cost at max 10% extra. Which is more than enough imo to know someon
You know how much stuff I saw that said Made in China on it? Very little, at that it was usually cheap crap like stuffed toys. Most everything I saw in that country was made in Japan. [..] Oh how I wish the general populous of the US cared about either. Stuff usually cost at max 10% extra.
Is all that true? I have a Japanese friend, and she was apparently quite shocked (and annoyed) when she found out that her Nintendo DS was made in China.
Personally, I assumed she just hadn't been paying attention to how much stuff was made in China these days (we have a lot of it in the UK), but maybe what you say is right.
No kidding... for several months while I had AT&T Broadband for cable service I never could get a decent picture. Internet speeds were nothing to write home about either. Techs came out a number of times (usually contractor types, not AT&T-trained) and one of them put in an amplifier. Which worked just fine at amplifying the noise (and he stuck $90 on my bill.)
Finally I called to cancel my service because I wasn't getting that for which I was paying. The operator convinced me to give them one more try... I said OK. Next day (a Sunday, believe it or not) this cherrypicker truck pulls up, with AT&T emblazoned on the side. This time I got a technician that had been through AT&T's in-house training program and wasn't afraid to get off his ass and climb a few poles. So he spent about three hours going down the street, pole-by-pole, until he called down and said "Whoops! Here's your problem" and tossed down a few feet of burned and blackened cable with squirrel toothmarks all over it, right down to the bare copper. It was a mess. So he replaced the cable for the whole block and we all got a great picture (and I got my 4 mbits/sec back.) Guy was pretty cool, really knew his stuff. It was like dealing with the AT&T of old. He also took the price of that stupid wideband amp off my bill -and- let me keep it! So I kept my service for a few more years until I moved.
I never found any squirrel bones, but I hope the 90 VDC feed cooked the little bastard.
AT&T itself trains some pretty good people. Unfortunately, they no longer train enough of them (particularly when it came to the original AT&T Broadband rollout) so they resorted to the use of outside contractors. Most of them were pretty useless.
Of course, it's not just AT&T. I also had Dish Network for a while, and I had to have them come out four times, different contractors each time, before I could get one that could figure out how to install the dish on my house. It was a tricky install
The real reason for the explosion? (Score:5, Funny)
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BTW, you can chill out, because despite about 50 bagillion submissions (mine being one), the story about AT&T censoring pearl jam's anti-bush lyrics [theregister.co.uk] never made it onto slashdot (at least, I haven't been able to find it anywhere), despite it concerning net neutrality and webcasts, and despite it being on the front page of google news for 3 days straight. Things aren't quite as slan
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Sounds alot like (Score:3, Insightful)
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Cars blow up, too. And so do transformers filled with oil. And steam boilers at factories. Those are real disasters. I think this "reporting" is just a lame attempt at mudslinging AT&T.
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Re:Sounds alot like (Score:4, Insightful)
What's the most reactive chemical area around? The battery. It's a lithium type - and warns that it could catch fire/explode if damaged.
It's certainly not a 'cheap component' - it's stated to be more expensive than other battery types.
Parent
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They are just big vats of acid in thick glass jars with electrodes. All sorts of acid warrning sticks around the building too.
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You most certainly do, seeing as how you mostly managed to restate what I said.
Elecrticity does not explode
No it doesn't, but under the right circumstances it can heat something so fast and hard that it effectively explodes. Saw/heard it once when they tried replacing a fuse on a power line that had shorted closed next to our building(we were on generator at the time). It sounded enough like a gunshot to make me duck.
which can make semiconductors explode,
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Yes the primary fuses on the poles can be spectacular when they go. Again you've got a conductor (fusable link) inside the cartridge and when the power co cuts in the mains and there's still a short (which can be hard to tell in advance) the link basically vaporizes instantly and superheats the inside of the cartri
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I was just relaying the recommendations placed in the instruction manuals by the company that made the batteries. Oh, and it's not like laptop batteries have a perfect safety record [cpsc.gov] either.
They may be similar, but from my understanding, laptop LiIon batteries still use electrolyte, of with the presumably exploded ba
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Rising voltage does not blow fuses. Rising current does. Rising voltage actually makes fuses blow at higher current levels than they should, which is why you have to use special fuses in high voltage circuits.
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It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. Of course a circuit breaker designed to trip on overvoltage is a good idea as well.
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My background is admittedly low power engineering, albeit in hazardous areas (int
Not a cheap component (Score:2)
The batteries implicated in the fires were advanced, very expensive lithium-metal-polymer [telephonyonline.com] types developed and built by Avestor. They were built for long-life outdoor installations: rated for -40C to 65C, temperature regulated, self monitoring: these were no low end batteries! AT&T retained an independent failure investigation quoted here [lightreading.com], which "...found that the battery design was sound, as were the safety features, and concluded that the risk of hazardous failures with this battery is as low, if not l
Energy Density (Score:2)
Back to NiCad (Score:1)
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Transformers do explode every so often (though not too often), but it's usually because of really bad weather or electrical power-line snafus. Phone transformers exploding because they contain batteries which are developing a history of being explosive--which likely wasn't known when the transformers were commissioned--is news.
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NiCds have a much lower energy density than LiPos -- which is exactly why people use LiPos rather than NiCds. The self discharge rate for NiCds is higher as well, and they need a little care taken when charging them to prevent voltage depression (well, many people call it memory, but that's another thing entirely.)
If LiPos are to be replaced, A123 batteries are a more likely replacement, though for things like this where weight and size shouldn'
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The replacement for LiPos will not be NiCd batteries.
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The problem with ni-cad batteries is real, see Federal Aviation Administration Advisory Circular 00-33A, "Nickel-Cadmium Battery Operational, Maintenance, and Overhaul Practices".
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In any event, the problem with LiPos is that the batteries themselves are flammable. With NiCds, they can turn into hot steamers, or can cause fires by getting so hot that they cause whatever is next to them to burn, or can fuel a fire by feeding a short circuit somewhere else, but they themselves don't burn. They can vent so violently that they sort of explode, but there's no fire involved. Note that the chemistry of NiMH cells is
Hold the phone....! (Score:2)
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U-verse, (Score:1)
I assume (Score:2)
It's not surprising that batteries can go ballistic. That happens now and then.
From what can be seen from the pictures the design wasn't sufficient to contain the batteries and any possible cause for explosion there. Maybe the designer didn't think about that or wanted to do a cheap job.
Awesome case mod ! (Score:2, Interesting)
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=1
for a totally over-the-top case mod. It's Unreal meets Terminator.
All the pictures (Score:2)
The first pictures is 'before'
All the rest are 'after'
Hydrogen + Spark = Bad (Score:2, Informative)
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But I hear that the batteries in question are li-poly. I don't think they vent hydrogen; they just appear to have unfortunate internal similarities to C4 explosive when they're made wrong.
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What you do find, however, is cct breakers and contactors on the main power feed & internal distribution. But the usual explosive trigger is the sparks from the cells themselves as they self-destruct...
We used to get 1 or 2 incidents like this a year in Aus, mostly in the far north. The SLA batteries used here don't take kindly to temps above
The Secretary will Disavow any knowlege..... (Score:2)
Batteries. (Score:2)
Anyone else remember the issues with Toshiba/Sony/Apple laptop batteries?
'Close your eyes and you'll burst into flames'.
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Get used to it, it's going to get worse. (Score:2)
There are all sorts of economic forces in play pushing for higher energy density batteries.
I can't tell you what's next, battery technology wise, but it will have more explosive potential then Lithium batteries.
In 100 years kids will deliberately short small batteries to make them explode. Unless the world comes to it's senses and continues to allow access to guns and reloading supplies. In the areas that do lucky kids will continue to blow things up the old fashioned way...When I was a kid, we made ou
Just Perfect (Score:1)
gee. not only are they ugly but potentially deadly too.
these are significantly large, noisy cluster boxes that under existing statute att feels can be installed anywhere, at the end of driveways in front of private homes etc. we now have these all over town and are currently involved in negotiations w/att to minimise their aesthetic impact.
now i suppose we'll have to go back and negotiate their explosive impact too.
vrad box walk-through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1o-1MkvzK4
check put the fa
Cougar? (Score:1)
Flywheel Batteries (Score:2)
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They now coat internal surfaces with nylon, if the flywhee
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I don't remember ever seeing a product "Made in America". Nearly everything comes from China these days, including the vast majority of the things sold under american brands.
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You know how much stuff I saw that said Made in China on it? Very little, at that it was usually cheap crap like stuffed toys. Most everything I saw in that country was made in Japan. [..] Oh how I wish the general populous of the US cared about either. Stuff usually cost at max 10% extra.
Is all that true? I have a Japanese friend, and she was apparently quite shocked (and annoyed) when she found out that her Nintendo DS was made in China.
Personally, I assumed she just hadn't been paying attention to how much stuff was made in China these days (we have a lot of it in the UK), but maybe what you say is right.
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Re:China: Possible Source of Problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Finally I called to cancel my service because I wasn't getting that for which I was paying. The operator convinced me to give them one more try
I never found any squirrel bones, but I hope the 90 VDC feed cooked the little bastard.
Parent
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That was an impostor. Probably a PI or the CIA installing a data trap on your line.
How do I know this?
Nobody from AT&T is that competent.
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Of course, it's not just AT&T. I also had Dish Network for a while, and I had to have them come out four times, different contractors each time, before I could get one that could figure out how to install the dish on my house. It was a tricky install