The Trouble With TiVo 369
BobCratchit writes "Multichannel News has an interesting take on TiVo: The DVR company has incredible mindshare but is totally dependent on cable providers to survive. Cable does not have many good reasons to let TiVo thrive. As a result, TiVo is destined to fade away unless it can carve out a niche as the cool kids' DVR (a la Macintosh) with products like the $299 HD DVR it just announced. From the article: 'TiVo has long been a darling of consumer-tech reviewers -- check out, for example, these happy hosannas from BusinessWeek, New York Times and Wall Street Journal. These guys are constantly befuddled that TiVo hasn't been more successful. Yes, TiVos make cute little popping noises when you click the remote. And they definitely provide cool features, like suggesting shows you might be interested in. But the cognoscenti enamored with TiVo's whizziness ignore a certain reality. It's easier to get a DVR from your cable company. And most people prefer to rent, not own, a set-top.'"
DVR (Score:2)
Re:DVR (Score:5, Informative)
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Although I suppose it's even worse now that I have to compile it to parallel-process on a couple of Opterons just to be able to do 1080p. Once my setup upgrades start costing less than $2000, I'll upgrade to HDTV
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That's what Hauppauge [hauppauge.com] cards are for: Hardware MPEG-2.
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My local cable company offers a DVR for a $5 a month rental, if I order the HD Cable package I get one for free. Where is my incentive to buy a Tivo? Not only will have to pay $X hundred up front for the device but I STILL have to pay a subscription fee. Not only that but the HD models aren't compatible with my cable providers HD service.
If I'm going to spend a few hundred dollars I'd rather build myself a SageTV or MythTV box
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I can get $LESSER_QUALITY THING for less money than $HIGHER_QUALITY_THING. What's my incentive to buy $HIGHER_QUALITY_THING?
It's the age-old question. Why buy any car but a used Yugo? Why buy a bigger house if a smaller house is cheaper? Why buy real food from a grocery store when you can get a burrito from Taco Bell for less than a buck?
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Re:DVR (Score:5, Informative)
Myth and cablecard (Score:2, Troll)
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OTOH, I don't have to enter a secret code to get my 30-second skip back after a brownout.
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That is one of the biggest reasons I went with Myth - I wanted some control over my data. Now I can make my video partition as big as I want, or shrink it at any time I feel like it. I can RAID-5 my storage and not worry about losing 250 hours of TV when a hard drive crashes (a matter of when and not if). I can skip commercials with one click 95% of the time, and jump arbitrary numbers of minutes when that doesn't work. The files
Re:DVR (Score:4, Informative)
Plus, they aren't really 'gone' like the other poster said.
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Re:DVR (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, I really like MythTV, but when it loses its only source of reliable guide data, I anticipate some serious problems.
Re:DVR (Score:4, Insightful)
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First, Zap2it.com regularly changed their format and broke XMLTV a number of times. Just my luck, they did that right as I was trying to set-up MythTV my first time... D'oh.
Second, you haven't been to XMLTV's website lately. They have plans to start their own listings website. http://schedulesdirect.org/ [schedulesdirect.org] Two of the MythTV developers are involved.
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Like the equivalent of a pre-built MythTV box. Or a Media Center-ish small form factor PC for the living room. Or like an AppleTV, with a service to download stuff. The kind of thing that's powerful, but that grandma could use.
And cheap program data, cheap hard drive upgrades, DVD bu
Re:DVR (Score:5, Informative)
Have you looked at any of TiVo's features in the last, oh, 7 years? TiVo can do a large subset of what you can do with a MythTV box, "Media Center-ish" PC (whatever that means), and has a service to download stuff. With a TiVo, you can use it as a DVR, transfer recordings to your PC, play your own music, play music on the internet, play purchased movies that are downloaded to your TiVo, check traffic, check weather, check movie listings, buy movie tickets, and that's just using their out-of-the-box supported features. They have an open API for application development that makes the possibilities nearly endless.
And as a bonus, since it's "done right", people like me can watch TV without worrying about my guide data provider vanishing, or my wife calling me because the damn front-end needs restarting.
Based on every cable company's DVR I've seen, they better be looking elsewhere for lunch.
Re:DVR (Score:5, Informative)
With the right (TiVo-provided) software, you can tell your TiVo where on the local network it may find your MP3s and photographs, which you may then play or browse at you leisure. (That feature is at least three years old.) Dunno about video on your local network. However, I can check that out this evening.
In the mean time, if the cable companies "eat TiVo's lunch", we won't get a better TiVo. TiVo will be gone, and we'll be stuck with mediocre, cable company DVRs and over-priced HTPCs. And AppleTV, which isn't the same thing at all. Well, and ReplayTV, but I can't recall the last time I actually saw one of those in a store.
You can crack open your TiVo and upgrade its hard drive right now. Takes some know-how, but not that much more than doing the same thing to a PC, from what I recall. There have been versions which included built-in DVD burners (they were $$$, so didn't sell so great, IIRC, ca 2004, when DVD recorders were $$$). And it's easy to use. It may not be a general computer, but there's really no good excuse for making it one, either.
Re:DVR (Score:4, Interesting)
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It's that feature alone that keeps me with Tivo. Problem is, the private DVR's don't necessarily have that feature. DirecTV wants me to drop my Tivo (I only dropped my UTV for the Tivo when the system ultimately died, and when I could get a dual tuner Tivo) and get their DTV branded DVR. I have heard that the new DVR includeds the features to allow broadcasters the ability to control what you can skip and what you can record. Tivo
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well it seems like the obvious thing.... (Score:3, Insightful)
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1. Not invented here. Cable companies didn't think of it so it's bad. Period. No logic. Just bad.
2. Negatively affects ratings. Since most "cable companies" are subsidiaries of the entertainment conglomerates, you bet the word comes from the mountain top that pvr's are bad. Dings ratings, failure to fully monetize their content.
3. Most consumers believe renting the box is a benefit. This is a dead end for consu
Re:well it seems like the obvious thing.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You missed a big one. CONTROL.
Cable companies control the entire DVR user experience when you rent/buy their boxes. (If you buy a box off eBay, the cable company will "update" its firmware).
TiVo doesn't let them do that. Instead of ads plastered everywhere (mine - if you scroll the guide (which only shows 5 channels because the full-screen guide has the top half used) using the up/down buttons, they stick an ad at the bottom of the list, reducing the guide to only 4 channels long, but the ad is a "hotspot" now, so it takes 5 button pushes) - TiVo only lets them have one at the bottom of the main menu (rotates) with the rest hidden under a "Showcase" menu.
It's also not like TiVo can't support stuff like Video On Demand or Pay Per View (I don't use it, I don't care, my "bonus" coupons from the cable company haven't been touched) - they did PPV stuff just fine with DirecTV.
Also, I suspect they know once people go TiVo, they're not going back. There are a lot of unhappy DirecTV customers since the DirecTiVo was discontinued (and I'm sure, many ex-DirecTV customers from those who left when it was revealed that the replacement DVRs are crap, much like the cable DVR). So the Cable company really doesn't want to be beholden to people who get used to TiVo, and who'll leave their cable service behind when they decide to abandon TiVo. They want a nice audience who'll sit infront of the TV, without considering alternative TV providers.
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The real WTF here is that this particular problem should've gone away a long time ago, unless I've misunderstood the present situation.
With millions of cable boxes between Comcast, COX and whoever else is out there, why haven't they supplemented, or outright replaced the Nielsen ratings system yet? They obviously have the infrastructure, and could easily send out questionnaires to allow people
Off air recording (Score:3, Interesting)
TiVo Over Cable (Score:2, Insightful)
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Re:TiVo Over Cable (Score:4, Informative)
Except for the few-times-a-year offer where you can get a Series 3, and transfer the lifetime sub to it. Everyone knew about the one that ended Jan 1, 2007, but since then, I have seen at least 2 more (one that ended last week, too!).
Basically, if you have a Series 2 with lifetime, they will for $200 let you transfer it to a Series 3. Bonus - the old Series 2 gets 3 years of prepaid service (nominally $300). So your old TiVo still gets service, and lifetime is moved to your shiny new Series 3.
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Tivo's DVR may be better, but I refuse to pay $12.95 per month for tv listings I can find for free on the internet. I could live with $3.00 a month, and I'll bet Tivo could too.
Sorry, Tivo, you have priced yourself out of the market.
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If you have more than one box, they knock $6 off the monthly fee for the additional boxes bringing it down to $6.95 per month. It's not $3, but still not bad. When you consider the rental charge on the cable company's box, the difference for a Tivo is really just the up front $300. That's not so bad, in my view, considering you end up with a much better experience.
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If there are multiple units in a household, one should be the master and do all of the talking with the mothership. Any data or updates that any other boxes need should go through the master system. Tivo shoul d only need to see the one box.
TivoTerminals should be cheap enough that most people would be comfortable buying one to put next to every TV & computer in the house.
VCR (Score:3, Funny)
Re:VCR (Score:5, Funny)
Quit whining (Score:2)
Back in my day, we didn't even have color! [wikipedia.org]. You kids and your fancy new gadgets...
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Sorry, I've got to go clean my gun...
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Re:VCR (Score:4, Funny)
Renting == Future Model (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't own a cellphone, you rent it.
You don't own the DVR, you rent it.
You don't own that DVD, you license it.
Pretty soon, you will not 'own' your 'Personal' Computer, you will rent it.
You already effectivly rent the software, it works for the MMORPG, it can work for Microsoft Word.
It's a way to ensure a 100% foolproof revenue stream.
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Yeah,yeah, you can call it subscribing to the guide service, but then why does it completely stop working when I stop paying? it should work as a VCR and let me access everything I recorded when on the service.
I know that some of the wierder DVD recorders have a "tivo basic" that does just that, but the older Tivo's and the new HD units dont.
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Except you own the hardware, and can do anything you want with it. By your definition, you "rent" cellphones, too, since if you stop paying, it doesn't work (well, emergency calls do, but TiVo works as a nice TV tuner with a 1/2 hour trick play buffer, too).
Try that with your cablebox DVR - open it up, pop out the hard drive. Then return it. You'll find that you'll be charged some huge
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Get what you pay for (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone I've let play with my Tivo for a while thinks it's cool, but to really appreciate getting cherry-picked recommendations, automatic deletions, season tickets, video podcasts, and other features it's gotta be in your home.
It's too bad TiVo isn't in such great financial shape because all they'd really have to do is give away a bunch of boxes for free and let people play with them for a month. They have it now, pure leased boxes where you just pay your subscription. But it's pricey.
I wonder if they could get puchased by a company with more financial backing.
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Errr.... they did. They gave away thousands at their HQ a couple of years back. You did not even have to commit to buy their subscription.
I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the HME interface that Tivo has -- there are applications written by third parties that run on PCs and display on the Tivo. You can use it as a media player,
Two notes (Score:2)
That's a really unfortunate turn-of-phrase. Is the writer aware of what Trojan horses are in the tech world?
Two: this is where Wall Street has a darling busted by DRM. It's really too much to hope for, but since TiVo is a household name, maybe finally a few legislators may become personally aware of how over-restrictive media controls really interfere with the consumer's best interests.
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Sure. It's not causing problems now -- but what happens if the cable companies get really pissed by TiVo, since TiVo is entering the movie distribution space? How will the cable companies move to prevent TiVo from taking a large segment of their business? They'll use DRM to lock down content, as HBO experimented with last year. [thomashawk.com] It's coming.
What happens when Cablevision or Comcast start chargin
Shouda stayed with DirecTV (Score:2)
But for a greedy CEO, TIVO would have accepted DirecTV's offer, they would continued to provide viewers with the best experience, with the best equipment, and EVERYONE would have been happy.
Now, DTV users are stuck with horrible hardware, TIVO cant make any money and NOBODY is happy.
Tivo, I love your stuff, but FUCK YOU!
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Can you buy an iPhone from Microsoft?
Its called competition. DirecTV has every right to try to lockup programming if they are willing to pay the price. That is the future. Look at DirecTV's football package; most subscribers would still pay for it if the price was double, its that good. I have no problem with providers buying up product. If you want it, PAY for it. If not, your choice.
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Can you buy an iPhone from Microsoft?
That's a stupid example. Come back to me when Apple tries to use the weight of iTunes to keep your favorite band from being released on CD or doing live shows because they signed a deal with them.
Its called competition. DirecTV has every right to try to lockup programming if they are willing to pay the price. That is the future. Look at DirecTV's football package; most subscribers would still pay for it if the price was double, its that good. I have no problem with providers buying up product.
Bullshit. If I want to watch MLB, Law & Order, or the NFL I shouldn't have to subscribe to DirecTV. The owner of the pipe shouldn't get to dictate what the other pipes can carry. That's called a monopoly, not competition.
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2. DirecTV CREATED the out-of-market option to buy the games, because they were a nationwide distributor that needs to use expensive satellites and receivers to compete with a city granted monopoly. These packages were created exclusively for them, but when the contracts ran out, they only renewed one exclusively, because ev
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And now, even with HDTV, most folks like me with a DirecTivo or two, or three, are holding onto them like grim death. I've got the HR20 HDTV DVR; the worst piece of consumer electronics hardware ever devised, just for watching NFL Sunday in HiDef this fall. My 4 year old DirecTivo's blow it out of the water. If DirecTV and Tivo could work out their differences, and I believe this is true for almost all DTV subscribers, they could NAME THEIR PRICE for an MPEG4, twin tuner HDTV DirecTIVO. It will never
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DirecTV and Tivo (Score:3, Informative)
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Everything I have read said that once News Corp / Murdoch came into the picture, they were either going to lowball Tivo's cut of the subscription fees or move to the DVR product that News Corp owned (thus keeping all the $$ for themselves). Considering the fact that Tivo never made a profit during that time, and have only briefly been in the black, I tend to think it was more of an attempt to keep his busines
Tivo would be a cool thing if the cable co did... (Score:2)
Also the cable co. DVR can download it's updates over the cable line with needing a cat5 cable, wifi link, or phone line hooked up to it. We need a open cable card system that can send 2 data ways, give you a guide and the cards need to free or have a very low cost as some times you pay just much as you for box for them
Re: Tivo would be a cool thing if the cable co did (Score:2)
Cable companies, phone companies, they only work with thier shit and if you are not even marginally tech
Great Things for TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
It works. All the time, every time, with minor exceptions. I have a wife who loves certain TV programs and will easily strangle anything that doesn't work and record them like they should.
It doesn't require a degree to run Sure, it might lack some more complex features that some people like. It might make annoying, "to-TOINK!", noises when you move around. But an idiot with a blindfold could sort it out, and that makes it easy on me. Not that my wife's an idiot; far from it. But I don't need to be explaining to her how to run the damned TV.
I can screw with it Because I own the box, it's mine. I can hack it, fiddle with it, change out hard drives, use them for something else, add to it, paint it, whatever I want. I might void my warranty, but whoop-de-do. I can because I own it.
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Note that, in general, this is becoming less and less true.
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I never knew that we were married to the same person.
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Just like an OEM (Score:2)
The question arises, however -- do manufacturers end up having reasons for defaults/settings that may not have much to do with choice and benefits to the consumer?
Makes sense to me (Score:2, Insightful)
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If I rent my DVR from the cable company, I know I can just swap out for a new unit when new tech comes out. (Though admittedly, it's far less often when dealing with cable company tech. Not that Tivo is on the
The reason that Tivo is better than they think. (Score:3, Informative)
Program data? Tive has a warehouse full of monkeys that contact the networks directly and enter in all the data, or they contract with someone who does, or they have an agreement with the networks to pass xml files back and forth. This is not an issue.
Cable company DVR boxes? These things are pieces of shit. They consistently disable and fail to provide features that people want, and who's to say that cable companies won't just delete your programs remotely if they feel like it, by which I mean, if Fox nicely asks them to delete your episodes of 24 right before the DVD comes out or something.
Sure, Tivo is about to license their software interface to Comcast for their DVR boxes, but it's going to take a serious about face on the part of cable companies if their DVRs are ever going to be what people actually want and not some weirdo solution that tries to please content providers, cable company stiffs, and lastly consumers, and fails to please any of them.
Loved ours but... (Score:2, Interesting)
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TiVo Lite versus DIY (Score:3, Interesting)
Is there any Series III hack yet to avoid the TiVo subscription in favor of an open source solution?
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Even if there was a hack, there is no open source solution for TV listings anymore. zap2it is discontinuing their free service, so XMLTV doesn't have a read source of listings any longer.
People need to start figuring out how to grab the listings off of the satellite or cable companies' streams, like their own DVRs do. CableCard standardization is supposed to prevent this vendor lock-in, and should make this
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Easy Solution (Score:3, Funny)
Just be so broke you can't afford a cable box or a TiVo. Then you don't have to worry about it.
Enough with the homebrew! (Score:5, Insightful)
Guys (and it's usually guys), we luff ya, but get over it.
It's wicked kewl thyat you can take a spare PC, install some clever software on it, find a source for TV listings, and make it do amazing tricks. Really. Wow. Awesome. Yay you!
But many of the rest of us aren't interested in doing that ourselves. For us, an appliance, like a TiVo, is the way to go. A black box, paying for a service contract, IT JUST WORKS.
I diddle with enough technology, I don't want to with my DVR. I just want it to have a great interface and a steady supply of programming that engages me. Everything else is gravy (and yes, the Tivo has some gravy too.)
So please, whenever you hear the name "TiVo" don't go into a pavlovian MythTV-MythTV-MythTV chant.
We get it. We got it. We're getting annoyed over it. We're getting to the point you're not getting invited to the fun parties because you can't restrain yourselves. Soon you'll be in pushed into the holy roller corner with the Operalytes (poor souls).
Some folks can't understand why anyone would watch TV. Some can't understand why anyone would pay for it. Some can't see a need for a DVR. Some can't see the need for paying a bit more for a TiVo DVR. Some can't understand whyeveryone doesn't just whittle their own DVR out of pine. Please, live and let live and let us hold a discussion without your pulling your homebrew out and wagging at us. It's big, that's nice, now let us talk about the conumer product we're interested in.
basic vs features (Score:2)
It's the subscription. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It's the subscription. (Score:4, Interesting)
DISH DVR (Score:2)
My DISH 942 has been working very well. Tivo has never been a plausible option for me.
My only real complaint is that I can't copy saved shows off the 942 and onto my computer. There have been times when I wanted to grab a snippet of vi
Three quick easy ways for TIVO to Dominate... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Ethernet Network connectivity to allow access to the web as well as network diskspace
2. Allow the users FULL control of the device (i.e. if you hit that 30sec skip button, do the 30 sec skip....)
3. Allow ability to record shows to physical media such as DVD, BluRay, or HDDVD
There you have it. The big three. The first company to release such a device will dominate the market as this is what the consumer wants, not what Hollywood wants. Remember we are a capitalist society, which means the consumer is in charge of what they want, not the corporations (even though the corporations do not want to admit this, their income is directly tied to the consumers purchasing their products).
TiVo is coming to the end of its life (Score:2)
Same trouble as with everything else (Score:2)
No, thank you.
More monthly costs!?! (Score:2)
Their previous HD units were VERY expensive ($1,000 for the initial HD DirecTivo, $800 for Series3 Tivo, some decreases & rebates after that). I think a lot of people are not willing to pay several hundred dollars for a product, then keep paying significant monthly fees.
With a one year agreement, the monthly fee is $17. $15 for 2 years, and $13 for 3 years. That adds up quickly.
It's even more distressing whe
Wireless Spectrum, Google, and TiVo (Score:5, Interesting)
What DO you get if you put these together?
The author of the article apparently perceives support of 4.3 million fanatic users as a burden!!??!!! I propose that Google would do well to buy TiVo.
Granted, there are additional costs beyond an acquisition: building the wireless infrastructure, merging it all together... but to put this in perspective, I just checked market caps:
- GOOG [cnn.com] $158 Billion ($158,390 Million)
- TIVO [cnn.com] $.55 Billion ($000,550 Million)
(NB: GOOG's Market Cap went up $190M while I was writing this post.)Lessee, $4.6B + $0.55B = $5.1B for nation-wide reach, a fanatic user-base (TiVo users), direct access to what customers are watching (more data!), YouTube tie-in capability (they already have a distributed video infrastructure)... what's not to like?
Heck, google could afford to give TiVos away, and have a guaranteed platform on which to sell its ads - nationwide, just for a few $billion more.
Prediction: if Google gets the wireless spectrum it is looking for, I expect to see "GooTiVo" (TM) within a year.
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That is absolutely true for my Comcast supplied Motorola DCT 6412-III.
However,
Prior to that, my non-branded Dish Network DVR worked great for 3 years. So I'm waiting for a Comcast provided TiVo box to see if they can hold onto my business.
Re:$10/month from the cable company and you're don (Score:2)
It's not like you're comparing apples and apples here. Sure, both record HD in the end, but the Tivo does it better, both in the sense of user experience during playback (no UI lag) and in the sense of having better guide data, recording options, and repeat handling for less duplicates recorded.
Re:$10/month from the cable company and you're don (Score:2)
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for the record, my series2DT tivo has 2 tuners, so i can watch and record different channels at the same time, or record 2 channels and watch a third on the cable setting on my tv, having it split to both my tivo and my tv's coax input.
i had a tuner break on my tivo. only one of them had the issue (it was black and white), but the other tuner worked fine. even though i'm out of the original warranty, they replac
Re:$10/month from the cable company and you're don (Score:2)
Re:$10/month from the cable company and you're don (Score:2)
I'm sure this is elsewhere, but.... (Score:2)
We just upgraded our lifetime series 1 TiVos to series 2s. We didn't care much, but wanted to get rid of the phone line and use our wireless network for TiVo upgrades. The dual tuners were nice, but frankly, there isn't that much w
TiVo's future: a content provider of their own? (Score:3, Informative)
I think that what TiVo needs is greater TV
Re:$10/month from the cable company and you're don (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the cable co's DVR sucks. If you have low standards this may not mean much to you, but a lot of people think having a quality product is a reason for a company to survive.
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I just checked the pricing, and it's $12 a month. Also, most people are going to need a box anyway which is $5 for standard and $10 for HD. Since the DVR includes the HD tuner, the real cost for most people is $7/month for standard or $2/month for HD. Unless the FIOS DVR sucks, how the hell is TiVo going to compete with $2 a month?
I should know. I have homebrew DVR which works rather well. I just got FIOS. Rather than trying to figure out how to get the homebrew
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I thought that that would be a problem with TiVo. I've got a series 1, and it holds just over 20 hours of NTSC. 20 hours didn't seem like much, but I soon discovered that if I didn't have tim
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If the owner of the content believed you wouldn't redistribute their content in ways they do not sanction, they might allow Tivo to record it to such an unencumbered format. Problem is, the content owners know for a fact that while you personally may not redistribute people in general will.
How much would you sell your commercial-free archive for? Wouldn't
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