US Gasoline Prices Spur Telework 512
coondoggie writes "The price of gasoline may finally be changing the way many people commute and communicate. Anecdotal evidence says teleworkers are growing rapidly as a direct result of the cost of driving. The article links a survey indicating that in Q1 2007 the 19 largest US cable and telephone providers (representing about 94% of the market) acquired over 2.9 million net additional high-speed Internet subscribers, to a total of about 56.2 million. That can be attributed in part to more employees taking advantage of telework programs, experts say. Just this week the House Judiciary Committee's antitrust task force opened the first of a series of hearings on the oil industry. Its chairman noted that gasoline prices have soared well above $3 a gallon and asked, 'How did we get into this mess?'"
How? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no good fix for the sprawl. The other two are at least somewhat addressable by some means of legislation or industry curtailing.
Re:How? (Score:1, Insightful)
I've been riding my bike (Score:4, Insightful)
I blame a lot of the fuel efficiency problems on city planers. The layouts of our cities are really bad for fuel economy, especially place like San Francisco and Los Angeles. California also suffers badly from a lack of a good public transit system. We have buses but it's not good enough.
Part of the problem is also social. People want their big tanks (Hummer, Suburban etc) because they feel safe in them. For whatever reason people equate size with safety even though it's not the actual case.
Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)
Congress! (Score:3, Insightful)
Congress!
Let's see what congress HASN'T done...
What, exactly HAS congress done to lower gas prices? Ethanol subsidies? Hydrogen research? Those haven't done much, have they? I remember 7 years ago when I saw a station out of town with gas for 99 cents a gallon. I'd be very surprised to find a station right now in my area at triple that. Ok, I know, they passed tax rebates when you buy a hybrid. But they passed them when hybrids were very hard to get and the expire this year as hybrids are getting easier to get. Oops.
Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)
The other two are at least somewhat addressable by some means of legislation or industry curtailing.
A more sane way of solving the problem is to have the consumer pay the true cost of energy. Does the gasoline you buy require us to import from unstable governments, resulting in a higher defense bill when we are in more conflicts over it? Put a tax on gas to foot the bill. Does gasoline hurt the environment? Put a tax on it to cover the cost.
Worried about tax payer backlash? Give out a refund check to cover the average cost. Those who buy the fuel efficient car or choose not to live an hour from work will make a killing. Those who don't will get killed. I bet you'd see habits change REAL quick.
In
We were warned. (Score:5, Insightful)
We were given a whack in the head about thirty years ago. We got up, dusted ourselves off and carried on as if nothing had happened.
Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:5, Insightful)
Such high prices in Europe does not hurt the European standard of living because many Europeans use public transportation; bus and trains are relatively cheap to ride. In the USA, many Americans refuse to use public transportation due to class snobbery. In my neck of the woods, about 80% of the passengers on the bus is either impoverished Americans (from ghetto neighborhoods) or illegal aliens from Mexico. The occupancy of the buses is about 50% during most of the day. Meanwhile, the freeways are packed with late-model cars driven by the wealthier class.
Frankly, even if gas prices increased to $10 per gallon in the USA, Americans would not necessarily experience a decline in their standard of living -- if they use public transportation. It is cheap although it may be slighly inconvenient because you must time your life according to the bus or train schedule.
Note that American politicians never compare European gas prices to American gas prices. The politicians just tell Americans what they want to hear: "Gas at $3.50 is too expensive. We Americans are a sad, pathetic victim of the greedy oil companies. We should force them to lower gas prices back to $1.50 per gallon so we can enjoy your monster SUV."
These are the same Americans who overwhelmingly supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
How did we get into this mess? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commo
This is why socialism doesn't work and why market economics does.
Re:I've been riding my bike (Score:2, Insightful)
Positive change (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:4, Insightful)
As for public transportation, it's feasible -- in the metropolitan areas. Out here in farm country, it's a lost cause (and the lower property taxes and intangibles like better schools probably make up for the extra money spent on fuel).
I love high gas prices! (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, and I'm sure your profit margin has absolutely nothing to do with it.
As an environment-conscious individual, I relish higher gas prices. $3 a gallon? Why not $5 or $10? I truly believe hitting people in the wallet is the *only* way to incite change in habits as deeply-rooted as our gasoline addiction. People need to realize that carpooling, investing in very fuel-efficient vehicles (for example, I drive a manual transmission Saturn--I average 30mpg city) or looking toward hybrid/bio-diesel options is not just a fanciful dream but a necessary reality. Alternative fuel vehicles are a reality, but the only way we will leverage them into the mainstream is through the power of our collective consumer's almighty dollar (and pound, and yen...
Re:Congress! (Score:3, Insightful)
Industry also had little incentive or desire to build refineries. And it's
better to use less gasoline as well. And refineries have had capacity
expansion equivalent to 10 new refineries.
There are some annoying problems with clean air standards raising prices,
but one of the principal ones comes from Federal political interference.
In California, the refiners are FORCED, against their desire, to use
ethanol imported expensively (and not compatible with cheap pipelines)
from politically powerful but sparsely populated farming states.
This despite the fact that they could meet even the strictest Los Angeles
emissions standards for fuel without ethanol---and give better fuel efficiency
to drivers.
Naturally this raises prices artificially---more than letting CA figure out
its own means to meet the air standards. CA isn't so insignificant (30 million+ people?)
that a robust market isn't possible on its own.
More oil exploration in Alaska and Gulf (which is actually already heavily explored) will
make oil companies locally a lot of money but overall be insignificant. Really, look at
the numbers of the hypothetical (optimistic guesstimate) oil available and compare to
global consumption.
At best, Alaska is our ultimate Strategic Petroleum Reserve and we should reserve it
for when the crap really hits the fan---which it will in 20 years when the terminal
downslopes of all major oil reserves really get cranking past the peak.
And again, since oil is a world tradable commodity for lowering prices all
that is necessary for Iraq is to just get its oil out on the world market.
If the US decided to confiscate the oil for its own profits you can bet
that the attacks on the oil pipelines would be far worse than even now.
No Iraqi local would have a stake in keeping the oil going.
I agree that efficiency standards ought to be raised. I prefer a fee-bate
instead of CAFE standards: tax low efficiency vehicles (without normalizing
by mass!) and rebate that to efficient vehicles. Make it substantial (e.g. $3000
on a normal Civic, $5000+ on a Prius-level efficiency) and relative
to the fleet sold every year, not an absolute threshold.
Then automatically you get a push to increase fleet efficiency every year
without additional legislation, and the vehicle choice is subject to market
forces not direction.
This is better than a high gasoline tax, because people have power of choice
when they buy cars, so it's not just punishing them for choices made
years ago.
Bushian fantasies (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I've been riding my bike (Score:3, Insightful)
I think they should create a NASCAR-like race using SUVs. Then people would really see the difference in handling between them and a low-slung car.
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:3, Insightful)
Its non-existence in most places is a pretty good deterrent. I would much rather use public transportation than own my own vehicle. I hate driving, dealing with other drivers, paying for insurance & vehicle maintenance & gasoline, making the yearly donation to the DMV to keep it registered, and still having it break down from time to time. A lot of people consider the automobile as symbol of their freedom, I view it as a symbol of servitude --- when it breaks down, it immediately displaces whatever your current highest priority is. Goddamned things are balls and chains, polluters, and instruments of fatality --- claiming more lives in the age group 15-40 than any other cause of death in the U.S. The sooner we're rid of them, the better.
Re:How? (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand what you're saying but I think there's a hole in the government's pocket which, if sewn up, could allow many of these problems to work themselves out.
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:4, Insightful)
On top of all that, once I already have a car, it's cheaper to use it drive myself to work than to pay for the bus fare. (It's about $3 for a day's driving, $4 for a day's busing -- $6 for the bus if I pay for each ride individually)
Re:And the rest of the world asks... (Score:3, Insightful)
In Europe, driving is a luxury, but in most of the US, it's a necessity. I could understand places like NYC imposing a high gasoline tax, but in much of the country, it would be an unfair burden on the working poor.
Bull (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes more use public transport than the US. i.e. 90% of travel is by car rather than 95%. But it does indeed hurt the European standard of living. Not only do they have to spend a fortune on a car, another fortune on fuel each year, but they are also taxed to the gills in order to pay the truly massive subsidies that are required to make public transport remotely affordable for the 10% who are able to make use of the extremely limited service.
Conventional public transport is unable to provide an equivalent service to the car, it is simply physically unable service the other 90% of journeys that most need to make.
Public transport is most definitely not the answer to the car. Not with any of the existing group transport systems anyway. Anyone who says it is, is simply repeating dogma without having really investigated the costs and inherent limitations of such systems.
Re:Chicken and the egg (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The road system in America is significantly subsidized, yet the rail system and public transportation systems are expected to make a profit! What. The. Fuck?!
Re:How? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:3, Insightful)
A good point; don't forget that the zoning policies are constantly being maintained by NIMBY homeowners who dread the consequences of higher density close to their neighborhoods, for example in Menlo Park recently [yahoo.com], a plan to build high density housing near the Caltrain was shot down by the wealthy NIMBY homeowners who would like to preserve the suburban character of their neighborhoods.
Re:And the rest of the world asks... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because, unlike in Europe, our cities are new enough to have been (stupidly) designed for cars instead of people. Now we're screwed, and have to have artificially low prices on gas to compensate.
Re:How? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How much do you all really spend on gas? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a much larger issue than your monthly gasoline bill.
Why do you live 100 miles from where you work? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I hope soestion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:3, Insightful)
You're not exaggerating for the Minneapolis metro area either. We own one car and my wife takes public transportation daily (we both rode the train downtown from another suburb 15 mins away last night -- the nearest stop to our house). I work in a suburb on the other end of the metro. I want to buy a house there but I cannot afford the $65 to 80k jump in prices from where I currently reside. We went to look at a house priced at $224,900 which is still nearly $60k more than our current home cost in 2004 (and with the market the way it is, how much it still is worth) and not only was it destroyed inside (we assume from foreclosure or renters) it needed so much work that another $30 to $50k would be required to get it going again -- something of which I have no time for nor any funds.
Anyway back on topic, the *estimated* time to take a bus from where I live to downtown Minneapolis and from there to the North end of town's transit stop and then from there to 10 blocks from where I work would take 193 minutes bus time and another 15-20 by walking (please note that the temperatures here in January and February routinely drop to -20F or lower in the mornings (with highs in the 0 - 5F range) and that there are no sidewalks between the stop and the school where I work). That same trip takes me less than 30 minutes (33.1 miles) by car.
I'm super tired of Europeans thinking that they can automatically assume why Americans don't use public transportation. The layout of cities here is far different and the layout of mass transit is as well. I would *love* to take mass transit daily (more reading, more relaxing, and less money) but I cannot at the current time.
Re:We were warned. (Score:1, Insightful)
Nothing? I think you've been smoking too much pot the last thirty years. Do you remember the 1970s?
I remember gas lines. I remember dramatic action to improve energy efficiency. I remember consumers choosing fuel-efficient Japanese cars instead of hulking gas-guzzlers from Detroit. I remember Detroit complaining that they couldn't compete against the Japanese. I remember when the average fuel efficiency of automobiles went UP every year instead of DOWN. I remember when energy efficiency and energy independence were viewed as vital to the national security of the United States.
However, this all seemed to stop in the 1980s for some reason.
Re:How? (Score:5, Insightful)
- Having it cost twice as much at the pump, or
- Having the cost of the increase added to your other taxes?
If petrol cost the same in the USA as it does in much of the rest of the world (well over $5/gallon), then you would almost certainly see a drop in demand.Re:Make all public roads toll roads (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How? (Score:3, Insightful)
We're so far away from that now that nothing short of a revolution of monumental proportions could ever set the record straight.
Re:How? (Score:2, Insightful)
Except that if we really do have that much petroleum stored up around the globe, its because the people who store it believe it to be more advantageous to store it than release it. They've already allocated their resources in what they believe to be the best way possible. There isn't any motivation for them to drain their stores while we retool the globe's production and refining capacities. Unless you'd be willing to pay them more for gas while we do so. I'm thinking thats probably not what you had in mind.
I can't even begin to comprehend what you're talking about. From what I can tell, somehow Wall Street is forcing people to incur debt and to buy copious quantities of gas. How they manage to do that, I don't know. Here I was under the impression that every cent of debt I'm carrying was incurred voluntarily. Not to mention that every gallon of gas that goes in my car was quite my own decision.. I guess I'm just that strange exception and everybody else has some Wall Street thug strongarming them in their decisions.
That may or may not be the case. I don't look too hard into this segment of legislation. It wouldn't surprise me terribly if the oil companies were pretty supportive of environmental legislation that blocked new capacity by making it excessively expensive. Thats kind of been the history of "protective" legislation in the US. Whatever was trying to be protected is barely better off, if at all, and the businesses that get grandfathered in see their margins increase.
I see you're thinking demand as going down only when raw quantity demanded shrinks. That isn't the whole of what economics would consider as "down". When prices go up, demand really does go "down". The quantity of gallons consumed may be up this year from last year and 5 years ago. However, if prices now were the same as last year's or 5 years ago the gallons consumed would be even higher now than they currently are. If you wish to use a gradeschooler's understanding, then lots of things don't work they way they should. Kinda how physics says that a 10 lb bowling ball and 10 lbs of feathers will hit the ground at the same time when dropped from the same height. If you actually try, though, the ball hits first. Because physics assumes you make th
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:1, Insightful)
The same Middle East "legally" colonized by the West?
socialism, good and bad (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why socialism doesn't work and why market economics does.
So, you're saying that we should
- cut back on corporate welfare,
- stop subsidizing oil companies, and
- let gasoline prices rise to their true market value?
Sounds good to me!I Forgot, Who's Making Record Profits These Days? (Score:2, Insightful)
"Its chairman noted that gasoline prices have soared well above $3 a gallon and asked, 'How did we get into this mess?"
I do no know for sure, as I don't pay much attention to oil and gas, but might it have something to do with greed? Remember when those execs weren't under oath, and efforts to put them under oath were scorned by the judge? Do you really have to ask how we got into this mess, or feel surprised?
Re:How? (Score:2, Insightful)
As an aside, the Constitution was written by men asserting their right to be free from English monarchy. The document says a great deal about how the Federal government should keep its big nose out of its citizen's business and very little about competitive markets.
If you want competitive markets, keep politics out of them. Oil companies may collude, but if they didn't have the weight of federal legislation to keep out new companies or impose large extra costs for opening new facilities or whatever, I can pretty well guarantee you that the lure of increased profits would induce one or more to break a collusion agreement.
Given that no one can keep politics out of markets, politics itself becomes a marketplace. And as I said before, its a market the american public isn't trading in much. There just isn't enough reason yet. Not that that surprises me. After all the price of gas is in the $3-4/gallon range. And yet we're still blowing through $4-5/pint on beer in quite ridiculous quantities. Heck, not only would not going to the bar save us from paying for heavily marked up alcohol, but we'd save the money on gas by not driving. Yet we still do a lot of both. Because its still relatively pretty cheap.
Leave Oil Reserves Untapped for Strategic Reasons (Score:3, Insightful)
# Allow drilling off the continental shelf in the gulf
Not a good idea.
Oil pulled out of there now would probably simply go on the global market. Since it's not a particularly huge amount in comparison to what's out there, it probably wouldn't depress prices significantly. Especially since competition for industrial resources is getting steeper as China, India, and some third-world countries enter the game.
At some point, it seems likely the peak oil shinola really will splatter upon the fan. Or resource competition will get really intense. Maybe so intense that we'll see military challenges for control of resources on the other side of the globe. All while most modern militaries run, essentially, on oil.
Against that possibility, which option places us in a stronger strategic position -- if we tap all our domestically available resources, or if we leave some significant ones untapped while using those from around the world while we (more or less) have a dominant position?
Re:Gas Price in Europe is $10 Per Gallon (Score:3, Insightful)
What planet are you from, dreaming about anything that is efficiently operated by a government, that is faster, cleaner and convenient??? If you get your wish you'd be paying $9/gal and your money will be wasted, misdirected, and otherwise lost to you, and all you'll get for the trouble would be that broken old bus that comes every two hours between 9 and 5, government holidays excluded. As a bonus, $0.50/gal will be earmarked for riot squads, to beat you senseless if one day you decide to object to this arrangement.
Re:Yes, it hurts European's standard of living (Score:3, Insightful)
For going to the shops it might make more sense to use a car, carry the shopping in the boot and not try and carry stuff on and off busses or trains.
And the biggest thing of all, congestion. If i wanted to drive to Uni from home it's a good 45 minutes, however i've only done this journey late on a Sunday or well after peak. If i were to do this in rush hour i'd forget about it. The train and tube take me about 45 mins start to finish (includes walking at both ends). Now the fact that a large proportion of people use public transport and the car still sucks makes a strong point.
Approximately 3 million tube journeys, 5 million bus journeys and several million more train journeys per day (operated by about 10 different franchises so no stats for that) show that transport doesn't suck that badly.
Re:Make all public roads toll roads (Score:1, Insightful)
Leading to well-paved freeways and shitty surface streets.
Attempting to apply capitalism to the road system is fairly pointless. We'd all have to slog 10 miles through mud after a rain to get to the parking lot because it just wasn't cost-effective to pave a street out to our neighborhoods. Not only that, but we'd start having arguments over "road neutrality" with the toll companies demanding that wal-mart pay up their "fair share" since the toll roads make it possible for wal-mart to make money.
Re:It's very simple... (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not rocket science.
I was at the store this week and there was a huge ass pickup truck, towing a boat with a 4 wheeler in the bed of the pickup. Almost everyone around here drives a pickup or some giant SUV because they "need" a vehicle that big to tow their boat, camper, 4 wheeler, motorcycles or whatever. They'll drive a vehicle that gets 9 miles to a gallon all the time so they can get 5 mpg towing their boat to the lake and burning gas all day water skiing once or twice a month during the summer. It usually will have an American flag or support the troops magnet stuck on it somewhere.
The first thing we have to do is spend time and money educating people. I know that sounds horribly basic, but we want to start highlighting the connection between big vehicles and dependence on foreign oil. We need to do that before we start jacking the cost of owning and driving a gas pig. Then raise that cost in a way independent of gas prices. Because gas will drop and people will start consuming more all over again, just like the 80's. And we need better mass transportation options that don't exist right now.
I live on a farm...okay, a hobby farm...and understand what it is to need a big utility vehicle. I don't have one...yet...but there are really times when I could use one. Not to haul my camper or boat, but to haul fence supplies, gravel, dirt, trees, bags of concrete and...stuff you need out in the country. Moving things, hauling things. What would be perfect for me is if there was some place I could go and rent a pickup truck easily. Not like U-Haul (our only option here) endless paperwork, leave your first born...some place you could swipe a card and drive away. Do your business and take it back, all without reservations, fingerprinting, or a cavity search. ZipTrucks instead of a ZipCar.
Education and options. It's not sexy, it's not fast but it's a start.
Re:How? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Distance to drive USA vs Europe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why do you live 100 miles from where you work? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Distance to drive USA vs Europe (Score:1, Insightful)
no, just a faster one, and make it big so I can buy more papers.