Is Daylight Saving Shift Really Worth It? 652
Krishna Dagli writes "Two Ph.D. students at the University of California at Berkeley say that Daylight Saving Shift will not do any good or create any energy savings. We are already spending money for software upgrades in the name of saving energy and after reading following article I wonder has congress really studied the impact of DST shift? " I also read some back story on the concept; OTOH, I found TiVo's suggestions that I manually change everything on my Series 1 device to be somewhat...insulting.
Value may not be measurable in economics (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:3, Interesting)
I take a camping trip at the end of March every year and it will be SO nice to have that extra hour of daylight to get camp setup, cook dinner, and enjoy the park.
While I don't agree with nearly everything Bush has done, even though it's possibly for the wrong reason, this one is a good thing.
Move to Saskatchewan, Canada (Score:2, Interesting)
Being in Canada, the time shift means that I use more electricity because when I get up...It's now darker again, so I gotta turn the lights on.
More driving? (Score:5, Interesting)
So wait, Washington passed a law to change DST early...the early DST change is now being used to justify gas price increases? Coincidence? Happenstance?
Sorry all, maybe my TFH is a little tight this morning.
The other side (Score:4, Interesting)
From TFA:
But Ryan Kellogg and Hendrik Wolff, who are working on their doctorates in economics, say the reduced need for light in the evening will likely be negated by the increased need in the early morning.
That sounds logical, but it is not (IMHO). In the morning when I get up for work, I turn on maybe two lights (bedroom and bathroom). I am focused on getting ready for work, so there is not any entertainment (TV), stereo, really nothing except an electric razor. I brew my tea, and I am off to work (I don't think my headlights count as extra energy).
When I come home from work, well, all the lights in the kitchen, the halls, very soon the livingroom, the plasma TV, the surround sound, the computer. Lot's more things. Now, most of these don't change from summer to winter, except the lights. If it is light out, I do not turn them on (shocking). That is a savings of energy by not turning on the lights.
I really don't think this article took into account the different energy needs from the morning to night times. It is short sighted.
Spack
(ok, the gate is open for you to disagree, but really think about the way you do things different in the mornings and how most people do it different first)
Re:The other side (Score:3, Interesting)
The only difference is the livingroom, kitchen, and hall lights. So assuming you have 3 bulbs in the kitchen, 3 in the living room, and 1 in the hall, that's 7 bulbs that are on an extra hour a day.
It sounds like you're already at least a little energy-conscious, too, as most people will turn on a light if it's not quite bright enough in the room. You just leave them off, apparently. (I'm talking about the hall and kitchen, here.) So for most people, that only leaves the living room. And quite a few people watch the morning news before work, to get a handle on weather and traffic, especially. There's the living room lights on, too.
So for most people, as you encouraged me to think about, there is no difference. For the energy-conscious bunch, there's very little difference. And for me personally, there's no difference. DST or not, I get up before the sun has even thought about peeking its lazy ass over the horizon, and I'm home LONG before it decides to take a rest.
In the end, I think more energy savings come not from the DST itself, but from getting people to talk about saving energy.
Two last thoughts: Lightbulbs are getting more efficient every year. The saved energy from this scheme reduces every year. I wonder where the line is that we spend more energy talking and setting clocks than we save from the change?
Last thought: I used to hear this was 'for the children' so they wouldn't stand at the bus-stop in the dark. Why not just let them go to school an hour later, instead, if they're really worried about that? Most children already get home before their working parents, so it's not that.
benefits of DST shift (Score:1, Interesting)
2. And no, most of us posting here can't/won't get up at 6 AM - it's a guy thing
3. We don't have to listen to clueless politicians talking about moving DST as "low hanging fruit" in reducing energy consumption
4. We found a bunch of old code that was fragile and needed to be replaced
5. We all got a little drill on pumping out patches - "that which doesn't kill us" etc
6. Most of those clocks I have at home were drifting anyway. Now they have correct time.
7. Long weekend days in March.
8. DST article on Slashdot gives everyone something they can post about.
9. If Congress wasn't working on this, they'd be fiddling with the tax code. Which means Mr. Big and his corporation pays less, you and I pay more.
Depends on your lattitude (Score:4, Interesting)
However, for those North/South of about 30 degrees, the difference is significant. Not to mention the (measured, reference unavailable) reduction in traffic accidents due to fewer people driving home from work in the dark.
Re:It's dependent on where you live (Score:2, Interesting)
Your distance from the equator and the season are the two critical factors. If you live far from the equator and it is closer to the summer solstice than the winter solstice then you have 'daylight to spend'. Where should we spend it? In the evening, or in the morning? Most people don't have any interest in getting up earlier than 6:00 AM, so shifting those wasted hours of sunlight to the evening makes sense. It also makes it easier to sleep in to a decent hour.
Trying to apply a study in Victoria, Australia to North America seems silly (disclaimer: the ABC news story didn't list full details of the study). Melbourne, Victoria is only 37.7 degrees from the equator, and most of the state is even closer. So, they don't get much change in day length, compared to the probably 60% of the continental US that is farther from the equator than Melbourne. Don't get me started on Alaska.
The problem with the DST change is that it now starts when we are still in a sunshine deficit. In the Southern states the days are still about half sunshine, as always, and in the Northern states the days are still noticeably less than half sunshine, so we're spending our excess sunshine hours when we don't have them.
I like DST because I'd rather have daylight in the evening than in the morning--I rarely get up before 7:00 AM. And, I like having DST earlier because I like to bike to and from work and since I ride in around 9:00 AM and return around 5:00 AM it works better for me if the sun is at its peak halfway between--around 1:00 AM--which is what DST does.
However, it seems unlikely that there would be much if any power savings for the next three weeks of DST where we are robbing Peter to pay Paul, and Peter doesn't have much to start with.
Anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying that discussing the usefulness of DST without specifying a distance from the equator is pointless. There's a reason that tropical countries (including New Mexico
Re:Already spending money? (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, funny shit.
Updating Java for DST can break something else too (Score:3, Interesting)
Golf industry pushed the change? (Score:3, Interesting)
Whether or not this is true I have no idea but here is a link [go.com] from ABC from back in 2005 which says the exact same thing.
Conspiracy? You decide.
Only true if year round (Score:3, Interesting)
My understanding is that this would only be true if it were year round. Accidents increase [nejm.org] on both [abc.net.au] the days that we spring forward [selfhelpmagazine.com] (less sleep) and the days that we fall back (interruption in our "circadian rhythms").
Of course, it turns out that it might not even save lives if year round [standardtime.com] (search for "school bus accidents").
Re:Already spending money? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:3, Interesting)
It's popularly difficult to interact, consume, create, foo unless you've got little deadlines controlling your movement. I blame grade school bells.
Re:News Flash (Score:2, Interesting)
Americans love traditions, no matter how idiotic it is.
Re:That assumes programmers learn from experience (Score:3, Interesting)
The last project delivered by IBM (three "teams" of basically college kids under three seasoned vets) had some extremely boneheaded obvious mistakes. The basic design was pretty good (effect of the vets probably) We spent over 4 years fixing what we could but without a clear ROI some things will never be fixed.
Hiring inexperienced programmers always pushes the costs into the future tho. You don't pay today. You get the product delivered and get promoted out. The mess comes later and is covered by the next guy or the support programmers.
I love DST! Let's keep it all year! (Score:3, Interesting)
On a normal work schedule, DST gives me more sunlight when it matters most: in the evening when I'm home. It also preserves a bit more afternoon sunlight in the short, dark winter days.
As for morning sunlight, I don't care. I'm getting up before sunrise much of the year anyway. I might as well suffer a bit there to have a better evening.
The cost of springing forward (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a toddler. Toddlers don't spring forward very well. Put them to bed an hour early and they'll spend two hours fighting it. Then get them up an hour early and see how happy they are to see you.
Please, please, either ditch it completely or use it all year long. I really like having an extra hour of daylight to spend outside with the boy, the dog, and the missus.
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:3, Interesting)
It would take that information and tell you what size AC you needed to cool it. With these measurements & no college degree (yet) I would come up with the same answer the boss did with his 20 years of experience.
There was another module for the software that would let you rotate the building and see the difference. Making as much of the windows directly south facing and as few north made a *big* difference. It could be a 20-40% savings in cooling cost vs lining it up with the road like most developers do.
Of course most houses are build to parallel the road, not the sun.
Re:New DST Rules (Score:3, Interesting)
1% Energy Savings
2 Billion spent in software/device updates
3 Weeks until the next set of issues
Forlorn It Techs everywhere
Re:Already spending money? (Score:2, Interesting)