Is Daylight Saving Shift Really Worth It? 652
Krishna Dagli writes "Two Ph.D. students at the University of California at Berkeley say that Daylight Saving Shift will not do any good or create any energy savings. We are already spending money for software upgrades in the name of saving energy and after reading following article I wonder has congress really studied the impact of DST shift? " I also read some back story on the concept; OTOH, I found TiVo's suggestions that I manually change everything on my Series 1 device to be somewhat...insulting.
Is it worth it? (Score:3, Insightful)
NO!
Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd go for double daylight savings if I could.
Maybe the PhD guys should get out of their classroom and enjoy the day.
Who cares about "energy savings"? (Score:3, Insightful)
I live in Indiana, and I'm thrilled that we're finally doing DST.
Congress? (Score:5, Insightful)
It is already well-established that the US Congress doesn't bother to read the laws before they pass them.
If they don't even read the law, I doubt they would do any studies.
Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:2, Insightful)
My neighbors tend to frown upon me doing yard work at five in the morning. And my kids don't seem to want to get up before dawn to go ride bikes.
Short sighted at best (Score:2, Insightful)
Was there any in depth hearings on it, any experts called in to testify on the change, any representatives from industries affected by this change, actual debate on the subject? As far as i can remember, it was no on all accounts.
Congress passes a law without knowing the full consequences, simply so they would have something to show in the 06 elections.
Anyone who voted on this is/was a god damn moron.
Re:Already spending money? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a "night person" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Already spending money? (Score:4, Insightful)
My wife says that she wishes DST was all the time, as she has no problems waking up in the dark but tends to work long hours and we regularly stay up until 11 or 12.
And yeah, as a reminder to programmers it's great, but it's also great for all people to realize that time is abstract and can pretty much be whenever. I don't think I've ever heard an elderly person lament the time when we were all standard time.
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:4, Insightful)
But that has nothing to do with DST, that has to do with 1) what time you come and go to work and how long you stay there, and 2) the days are simply shorter in the winter because the Earth's axis. In extreme Northern and Southern climates (think North and South polar regions), its daylight and dark 24 hours a day depending on the season, and changing the clock will not change that.
I heard on NPR the other day, that the _real_ reason for DST is not to save energy, but rather to appease the retail sector. They have data that people are more willing to go out and spend money after work if its not dark. So people go motoring around in their fuel efficient SUVs, blow money, and thus energy is saved!
Personally, I don't understand why humans are so clock oriented vs sun oriented. It kills me that houses in the US are built in random directions (unless there is a nice view) instead of oriented around the Sun.
Sometimes I think humans are the silliest of all animals.
News Flash (Score:3, Insightful)
I repeat DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME DOES NOT GIVE US MORE DAYLIGHT. It does not change the planets tilt, rotation speed, or smell.
Sorry, but it just bugs me when everyone claims it gives us more daylight. DST should be abolished altogether. Any companies that want to change their business hours for the seasons should do so on their own. Factories in the Midwest, like mine, start their employees 2-3 hours earlier in the summer so they can avoid the heat of the day. DST just means now we have to start our employees 3-4 hours earlier to avoid the heat.
DST is my new mortal enemy.
Re:So you're trying to tell me... (Score:2, Insightful)
Politicians are only people, you're a person too. Question what they do or you're simply a tool. Don't forget either that they work for you.
So yeah, mod parent down
Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:5, Insightful)
Energy has nothing to do with it (Score:4, Insightful)
Any other government explanation is a lie. No exceptions.
Re:Value may not be measurable in economics (Score:4, Insightful)
(For that matter, if it's that big of a difference, why doesn't private industry decide to change business hours independently? Personally, I don't see it as a big enough change to be worth bothering -- but then, I exercise in the mornings rather than afternoons, and have an employer who allows me to shift my hours at will).
In a word: No (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a reason that American Chamber of Commerce has strongly support DST since it's inception.
It's an ineffective, stupid move. (Score:4, Insightful)
If the government was really interested in "saving energy", it'd clamp down on emissions and fuel efficiency, and promote more effective techniques. Banning incandescent lighting and enforcing energy-saving bulb usage would strip several percent off of electricity demands year round and would cause a whole lot less annoyance than timezone changes. The EU and Australia have already figured this one out. [scotsman.com]
Re:I'm a "night person" (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:News Flash (Score:5, Insightful)
I think we're all aware of that. It must be nice to work in a business that can adjust business hours on their own without any serious repercussions but a lot of us don't have that luxury. I have to be at work when my clients are at work. That's one of the advantages my clients have to using us over using someone offshore. All of our clients live in an 8-5 world so I too live in an 8-5 world. I'm rather fond of my 8-5 world including more daylight after I get off of work. That's extra usable daylight which is the real pro DST argument as far as I can tell. I don't really think anyone believes that setting clocks a certain way impacts the amount of time the sun spends in the sky daily but nice straw man (a term I really think is overused but is unfortunately most appropriate here).
real reason for DST (Score:2, Insightful)
Should be like religion ... (Score:3, Insightful)
DST All Year (Score:2, Insightful)
I wish we could stay on DST all year. I hate coming home at 6 p.m. and all I can do is sit on my ass because it's too dark to work or play outside.
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:1, Insightful)
At this time of year, you are not commuting in darkness in the morning, so how can an extra evening hour of daylight possibly be annoying?
End quote.
THREE WEEKS ago I was not commuting in darkness in the morning, or only just, and not for the entire commute.
As of this morning, I am BACK in the dark, with dawn just breaking as I reach work. It will now be approximately another three weeks before I am no longer commuting in darkness in the morning.
Half the people posting here seem to be under the honest-to-God impression that an extra hour of daylight is coming from somewhere; others are not under that nonsensical impression, but DO state their enjoyment of that extra hour of VERY PERSONAL daylight for outdoor activities in comparison to dark/indoor activities.
Definitely understandable on a personal level, but hardly justifiable as an energy-saving measure, unless you're like the guy in the office beside mine, who gets up late in the morning and stays up late in the evening. If, like me, you work on a fixed schedule even approximating that 8-5 timeframe, then this has been an energy-COSTING measure.
Some of you already get this, others apparently need an illustration:
- I arose at 0600 -- still dark outside.
- I currently arise at that same 0600, the same clock hour, one physical, planetary hour earlier.
- I drove to work, leaving home at 0700(ish), which was finally getting light outside.
- I currently drive to work, leaving home at 0700(ish), which is NOW completely dark.
- Halfway to work, I WAS capable of shutting off my lights, even taking into consideration the safety factor of my being visible to others (rather than my own need for headlights).
- Halfway to work I NOW NEED my headlights. ALL THE WAY to work, because the sky is now just beginning to glow in the East as I exit the freeway and begin to negotiate the still-electronically-lit streets and avenues on my way to my place of employment.
- I DROVE home in complete daylight.
- I now will DRIVE home in the same complete daylight.
This measure is completely meaningless to my neighbor, who doesn't get out of bed until 0800, when it's light. When I spoke to him about the idiocy of labeling this measure an "energy-saver" he justified it by explaining to me that because he now uses less electricity in the evening (based on it being lighter), energy is, clearly, saved! He explained this with great enthusiasm.
When I pointed out that in the grand scheme of things I was now using his saved energy in the mornings for my commute, he frowned and suggested that I try getting up later in the morning so I could drive to work when it's light outside. He then asked whether I realized or not that our government is trying to help my by doing this.
As for Mr. Happy Camper in this thread: "...that extra hour of daylight to set up camp" on your vacation? I think you may be missing some of the point of camping, and I say that as an avid, experienced camper. You and my neighbor should get together for coffee, say, around 10:30 or so, when you're just getting started with your day?
No account here, so all replies are welcome at:
urban_sasquatch@hotmail.com
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Stock prices vs Savings (Score:3, Insightful)
from another DST hater (Score:5, Insightful)
Whenever I hear someone talk about how awesome it is to have extra hours of daylight, I ask them why wouldn't it be better to just "recalibrate" the time zones so that "daylight savings time" is the new standard time, then just stop all this switching nonsense.
But time zones are another total pain in the ass, even if there's no switching back and forth. I recently found out the China has a single time zone, whereas the country would encompass about eight zones if they used our style of time zones. And have you seen the time zone map of the US? It makes no sense at all. Alabama is completely on central time, but if you go due north, Michigan is in . . . eastern time? WTF?
I personally advocate the abolition of time zones altogether. Let's all use Greenwich Mean Time, no time changes, and deal with it. Businesses and schools can just change their hours of operation, rather than messing with time itself. Sure, it would be weird to have sunrise at 6 pm and sunset at 6 am, but would it be any more complicated than the current system?
Re:Another case of academia vs. the real world (Score:2, Insightful)
Am I missing something? If you're on vacation camping, nobody's going to make you get up or go to bed at any certain hour...DST isn't giving you any more or less daylight than you would have without it.
As for DST's usefulness during workdays...I hate it. I have to try and adjust my body's rhythm twice a year and it gains me nothing. Between long work days and long commutes, it doesn't matter what the clock is set to. It will be dark (or close to it) when I get home.
I grew up without DST (in Indiana) and somehow we lived. We got everything done that needed done. We had plenty of daylight to play and work and shop and so on. Maybe we were just more efficient in Indiana than the rest of the world. I hope everybody else catches up someday.
Re:Already spending money? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:News Flash (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Already spending money? (Score:3, Insightful)
Worth it? Psychologically, absolutely. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Already spending money? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Already spending money? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:from another DST hater (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Another case of academia vs. thereal wrld - YES (Score:3, Insightful)
You pay the agent if you buy through the agent. You write a big check, and some percentage or flat fee comes out of that money and goes to the agent. I don't care how they word it in the agreement (they can word it either way, depending on locality, whether they are a buyer's agent or seller's agent, or whatever) the fact of the matter is that money goes from you to the agent. The seller knows how much the agent is getting paid, and factors that in to the price.
Re:Yes! No! Maybe! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:2, Insightful)
Take Bill, a regular programmer, who turns up to work, does 8 hours, and takes home his pay. His cost is his salary. DST kicks in early, and the company decides Bill is to work on ensuring that there are no problems with the clock change... so he turns up to work, does 8 hours, takes home his pay. His cost is still his salary, so the cost to the company is nothing.
The "lost productivity" line is nebulous at best - his activity was redirected from other projects, for sure, but the deadlines on those projects remained the same. If those projects were important and had tight deadlines, Bill would have not been moved to DST work, and the people impacted would have been warned to update their clocks manually...
Re:Already spending money? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some of them are cultural.
Some of them are inherent physically.
People who have the currently popular versions of smart are treated as smart by society.
In the french court, calculus counted for nothing- but you could basically kill a person with the right witty saying.
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:DST, artificial lighting, uniform factory hours (Score:3, Insightful)