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Power User Journal Science

On Electricity (Generation) 330

Engineer-Poet wrote a piece a few months back that focuses on electricity production; or rather how or what we will need to do to keep pace with people's demands while balancing that with environmental and economic impact. Lengthy but well-reasoned and good reading.
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On Electricity (Generation)

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  • Related Reading (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CheeseburgerBrown ( 553703 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @12:05PM (#17800452) Homepage Journal
    For a science-fiction cant on some of the issues raised in TFA, take a look at The Bikes of New York [cheeseburgerbrown.com] which explores a post-energy crisis near-future in which impoverished people have the option of riding stationary bicycles to spin massive underground flywheels that top up the energy needs of commercial enterprises.

    I think creative solutions to electricity problems are in all our futures. Personally, I live about 75% off the grid and am looking forward to be able to afford to get all the way off -- but I need to get my roof re-done before I can even think about solar panels or mounting a wind turbine up there.

    At any rate, fiction for thought.

  • Similar Ideas (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rohar ( 253766 ) * <bob.rohatensky@sasktel.net> on Monday January 29, 2007 @12:19PM (#17800682) Homepage Journal
    The article has some similar ideas to our project [energytower.org]. A few comments on the article:
    • The existing agricultural system is orientated towards edible food production. Growing, handling and storing crops for energy products is an entirely different industry that currently doesn't exist in North America. Using food production numbers for energy product potential isn't very accurate.
    • If agricultural production of energy products had access to affordable and renewable energy, there is a lot more potential for increased production while improving the land as well as better use of by-products than is feasible with the current fossil fuel powered agricultural sector.
  • by P3NIS_CLEAVER ( 860022 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @12:22PM (#17800730) Journal
    The real pay off for ethanol will be when a good process for making ethanol from cellulose is developed. Cellulose is just long chains of sugars, and it is just a matter of time before the chemistry becomes a reality.

    In the meantime, ethanol for corn will help get the infrastructure in place.
  • Re:Blogs suck. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29, 2007 @12:32PM (#17800886)
    The only reason ethanol is being pushed in the US is because the government is getting tired of paying the thousands of corn farmers to keep growing far too much corn, and is hoping that burning corn will convince prices to rise so they can quit giving money away to farmers who should be growing something else.

    At least thats what I hope they're doing. The corn farmers have destroyed pretty much everything else thanks to their ridiculous subsidies, getting them off of their subsidies and getting food diversity back into our food chain will benefit everyone from the diabetic to the e.coli sufferers.
  • by daeg ( 828071 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @12:53PM (#17801188)
    True, although moving to easy, more natural crops like Switchgrass will alleviate some of our problems.

    Much of our soil erosion and depletion is due to the way we grow crops: in strict rows, with chemicals to kill weeds and grass. While killing weeds makes picking corn easier by keeping the rows clean, there is a lot of exposed soil under the plants.

    Grasses don't have this problem and actually help to maintain or even expand soil over time, and most have the added benefit of being perennial and self-propagating.

    I'm curious, though... this article only outlines crops that work in the US. What will other countries do? Will rice or other water crops work for coastal countries?
  • by Spazmania ( 174582 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @01:14PM (#17801490) Homepage
    How to end US carbon emissions in 30 years without damaging the US economy:

    Step 1: Build nuclear power plants. Update the designs with modern technology and give tax incentives for every new nuke plant built.

    Reason: 50's and 60's technology nuke plants currently generate electricity for less money than any other technology, even coal. They cost less than a third of what oil and natural gas plants cost. With modern technology its likely we could improve safety while lowering the cost further. Speaking of safety: the worst US accident in 50 years of opererating nuclear energey plants was three mile island, in which no radiation leaked and no one got hurt.

    Yes, worse accidents are possible. That means that over a long enough period of time they will happen. But weigh the rare environmental damage from a meltdown against the continuous destruction of the atmosphere by hyrdocarbon burning plants.

    Step 2: With the cost of electricty driven cheap enough by nuke plants, shift to hydrogen-based internal combustion engines. With electrolysis done at off-peak hours to generate hydrogen from electricity, every home can be its own fueling station. Hydrogen burns with oxygen to make water, so go drive a steamer.

    Reason: Imagine a city, maybe the city you live in, where the only air pollution is the occasional methane from peoples' farts! Nuclear makes its possible and these technologies are economical now, not just in some hypothetical future after more research.
  • Re:Simple solution (Score:4, Interesting)

    by pherthyl ( 445706 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @01:41PM (#17801986)
    You, like I did up until I saw this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron:_The_Smartest_G uys_in_the_Room [wikipedia.org], think that the brownouts in california were caused by not enough capacity. In actual fact, they were caused by Enron shutting down plants or exporting energy out of the state because they could make more money that way.

    Read more about it here, especially the section entitled Supply and Demand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricit y_crisis [wikipedia.org]

       
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29, 2007 @01:45PM (#17802052)
    But, right or wrong, we are paying the subsidies for corn regardless of ethanol production. So, we might as well make ethanol out of it instead of shipping the corn off to developing countries at the subsidized prices which means that their farmers can't afford to farm their own food.
  • by drmerope ( 771119 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @01:45PM (#17802058)
    Ah. Solar. I couldn't help but notice a few years back that the city of los angeles had covered a parking lot by the Staple's Center with photovoltaics, and I often read about how it takes 20 years to recoup the cost of solar panels (less now with heavy government supports). The irony of this is that manufacturing solar cells consumes a good deal of electricity--and it turns out (I'm in the semiconductor industry) that this manufacturing cost is the bulk of the price. Meaning that not only does a solar cell take 20 yrs to pay itself back but it takes about that long to produce the electricity that it took to make!

    Good news though: most fabs are built near sources of cheap electricity (hydroelectric).

    But seriously, the best hope for solar is in large (and small) mirror arrays that allow the equivalent of many suns to be focused on a small (cheap) collector area ala 'Energy Innovations' the Idealab company.

    But on another note. I don't think the author really understands what he is writing about. Some of his efficiency factor goals are definitely unrealisitic in the time-frame he describes. A charcoal to electricity process running at 50% efficiency is downright ridiculous.

    Direct Carbon Fuel Cells are very expensive to make (require lots of electricity and other toxic chemicals) and have service lifetimes of only a few years depending on the purity of the fuel. Their efficiency is also low ~20%.
  • by Engineer-Poet ( 795260 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @02:32PM (#17802750) Homepage Journal
    The US has a huge farm lobby and agribusiness giants like ADM which make huge amounts of money on corn. Actually, the farmers have mostly made their money from subsidies, as production has glutted the market since the end of the acreage set-asides under Agr. Sec'y Earl Butz. ADM made massive amounts of money turning subsidized corn into fructose and selling it into a sweetener market driven by protectionist sugar tariffs, so it was natural for it to go to fermenting subsidized corn and selling it for the 51 cent/gallon fuel subsidy.

    Unfortunately, just because it's money-positive doesn't do spit for energy. The energy balance of corn ethanol may be as low as breakeven, according to a recent MIT analysis; even the USDA's numbers only come out to 1.09:1 after you correct their math [blogspot.com]. Should you manage bring that up to 2:1, you can still generate barely 16 billion gallons-net of ethanol (energy equivalent to 10-11 billion gallons of gasoline) out of the entire US corn crop.

    As for why we don't look at cellulose.... it's because cellulose is a tough polymer evolved to be hard for bugs to eat, and we are better off using pyrolysis (charring or burning it) instead of hydrolysis (breakdown into sugars) to get energy out of it.

    Sustainability [blogspot.com] actually does propose converting cellulose to ethanol, but via a rather indirect path:
    1. Pyrolyze cellulose to charcoal and fuel gas.
    2. Burn fuel gas in a molten-carbonate or solid-oxide fuel cell, producing carbon dioxide, electricity and waste heat.
    3. Feed carbon dioxide to a closed bioreactor with algae.
    4. Extract algal fats, sugars and starches.
    5. Ferment sugars and starches (easily handled with common yeasts) to ethanol.
    6. Distill ethanol using fuel-cell waste heat.

    It goes by a roundabout route, but it doesn't require any funny business and it tries to get useful energy at every step.
  • Best solution I know (Score:2, Interesting)

    by drago177 ( 150148 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @02:39PM (#17802846)
    There will have to be multiple, complex solutions to this coming energy crisis, but 2 things will have to happen: 1) The public as a whole is going to have to be better informed and concerned enough to force the politicians to move, and 2) A huge majority of the public is going to have to make a few changes.

    Which green solutions are best is sometimes debatable. But there is a new company that seems to best cover both 1&2, and it is one of the 'no-brainer' solutions. Citizenre will be renting solar panels out, letting them almost immediately save everyone money, while making each customer a sales person, familiar with product and issues. Its 100,000 panel/yr manufacturing plant is scheduled to come online in September 2007. They're currently using 2005 average power bill prices, and will switch to 2006 on Jan 31, 2007. The rate my Dad locked in, just by registering on the website, was 37% less than his current bill.

    If you live in the US, and would like to sign up under me, sites are:
    http://www.jointhesolution.com/solarnevada [jointhesolution.com] (as customer)
    http://www.powur.com/solarnevada [powur.com] (as sales associate)

    To ruthlessly give someone else commission, www.citizenre.com. :)
  • by BeePlus ( 1057212 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @03:27PM (#17803482)
    The solution is simple: There are plenty of obese people in the US, plenty of immigrants looking for work, and plenty of people that go to the gym. What is the rational combination? all you need to do is put all those people on bicycles (or hamster wheel) that generate electricity. This will kill 4 birds with one stone; electricity generation, obesity, immigration, and paying for the gym. You are welcome world!
  • by Annoymous Cowherd ( 1036734 ) on Monday January 29, 2007 @03:30PM (#17803526)
    I find it rather ironic that the commercial means of producing the ethanol you so adamantly promote, is going to be coal.

    If you want to talk about air pollution, and believe me, I do, then you're going to have to tackle the carbon monoxide, toluene, not to mention methanol, that appears to be the byproduct of this 'safe' alternative.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm all for saving the environment. Which is why I think we should take a little time and do our research before substituting the ogre for the troll.
  • Re:Wrong (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29, 2007 @04:20PM (#17804218)
    Land-shipping yes.

    However, merchant ships are large enough you realistically could nuclear power them. If I remember right, the nuclear powerplants on a Los Angelos class submarine crank out about the same horsepower as a medium sized bulk carrier or container ship get from their gigantic diesels, and the sub powerplants are about the same size, not accounting for fuel storage. An aircraft carrier is about the same size as a large container ship or a medium sized oil tanker.

    But, the navy uses nuclear for its performance, not economics. No visible emissions to give away position, 20+ year refueling cycle reducing mission support, lots of horsepower (once you get to a certain size), and no air needed (very important for submarines). A nuclear merchant marine fleet would be really expensive, present extra regulatory challenges (probably the biggest showstopper), and would probably put on the miles a lot faster than the navy (that 20 year refueling cycle drops to 10 or even 5 years).

    The basic point is lets deal with the things we can, rather than waiting for that one perfect, solves everything, solution. Since likely it won't ever come.

    And avoid focusing so hard on one solution, to the detriment of others. There's a lot of application niches, and generally different solutions work better in different places. Batteries can work in commuter vehicles currently, but they suck in long-haul trucks.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29, 2007 @05:41PM (#17805240)
    Corn ethanol is a dead end...we need to give up the idea that Corn is the most valuable crop and stop subsidizing it. There are a lot of other things we could be growing that would be far more suitable for ethanol production (Sugar, Sorghum and others). Not to mention the fact that an end to corn subsidies would decrease the amount of high-fructose corn syrup we eat, which can only help to reduce the incidence of obesity and diabetes.

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