Hybrids Beware? EPA Revises Mileage Standards 550
Shivetya writes "The federal Environmental Protection Agency announced a new system for determining the fuel economy of many cars and trucks. Hardest hit will be hybrids as all-electric driving is not considered. At the same time, many medium-duty vehicles will get rated, but not have to be published until 2011 This move to more realistic ratings will severely reduce the high numbers some cars have posted."
Beware of what? (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way, I don't hate HUMMER owners.
Cheers.
Insight never goes all-electric (Score:3, Insightful)
It is, that said, an exceptionally stupid rule; the Prius gets a huge benefit from the all-electric mode, and that ought to be included in the mileage calculations, because it's the bottom line that affects a real user. If your car can do three miles of bumper to bumper traffic with the engine off, instead of burning a quarter gallon of gas idling, you have saved a quarter gallon of gas. That your engine didn't need to be on to achieve this is a feature, not a bug.
One-Two Punch (Score:5, Insightful)
Getting the US off of the foreign oil tit should be a national security imperative.
leave it to the government (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Insight never goes all-electric (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, all-electric mode isn't really a distinction with much practical value -- that electricity was generated in the same ways electricity is in combo mode.
Re:Insight never goes all-electric (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree, but good luck... (Score:3, Insightful)
In order to get off the "foreign oil tit", as you put it, we'd have to do alternatives for lubricants, plastics, asphalt, jet fuel, diesel oil, heating oil, etc.
Sure, there are alternatives for may of those (biodiesel, corn-starch plastics, electricity generation fueled by something besides oil, etc), but the alternatives are often more costly (and less efficient) to create than the original... or can be worse for the environment (e.g. coal-fired electrical generation vs. oil-fired). Until oil is expensive enough to make those alternatives more attractive, we're kinda stuck.
Re:GOOD. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're not paying extra for a car that gets exceptionally good MPG. You're paying extra for a car with good MPG that doesn't suck to drive.
Re:Insight never goes all-electric (Score:3, Insightful)
Fair 'nuff: I was 1.4% off according to CA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:1, Insightful)
1. Often times recycling is more, not less, wasteful in the net and gross than building some new. It sure makes you feel like you are doing your part, but when you look how much waste is involved, some things are better off not being recycled.
2. Cars have to meet both environmental requirements and servicability requirements for users. In every possible sense, the older a vehicle is the less well it will do in both of those cases. Older cars may be cheaper (unless they are highly sought after models, like muscle cars), but you get what you pay for. And older equipment will produce more waste as it breaks down, converters wear out, engines leak oil, new gas additives don't always play nice with older cars (like RFG and leaking fuel systems in older cars, which is a huge fire hazard)
3. Not everything can be recycled, period.
4. Recycling *is* an industrial process and just like any industrial process it too requires energy, labor, money and resources, but also produces waste.
Re:Beware of what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Either way, people need to keep in mind that alternative engery sources and hybrids are still works in progress. Even if they aren't economically or environmentally more efficient than traditional vehicles, the current crop may be a stepping stone to getting there.
Re:leave it to the government (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_
from http://wikicars.org/en/Toyota_Prius [wikicars.org]
Total energy used to produce the car and run it is only slightly better than an all gas model because initial energy requirements for a similar sized car is MUCH higher, something that goes contrary to "common sense".
That gets payed back over the years in better gas milage. The wikicar site will show you that in Japan the milage is 71mpg and Germany it is rated at 51mpg.
No conspiracy , just different methods of measuring MPG.
My next car will hopefully be a plug in desiel hybrid. They just have to start selling them here! The GM/Opal Astral would be my pick.
P.S. Use the return key or formatting.
Re:air conditioning effects mileage? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Because we KNOW California knows what it's doing.. (Score:2, Insightful)
DOH!
Because saying "nuclear" in California is like... (Score:2, Insightful)
They hiss and spit and shun you. Because, as the movies have taught (sorry, wrong word.. CONDITIONED) them, nuclear = bad. PERIOD. All they need to figure out is how to shut down that damn "sun" thingee, and everything'll be right with the world.
So remember now. Nuclear power makes Baby Jesus cry!
Re:Blows my mind (Score:2, Insightful)
Take your Omni and add a ton of safety features (airbags, side-impact beams, and a chassis that performs WAY better at protecting you in a collision).
And add a bunch of features - power windows, door locks, steering, brakes were not as common in high-mileage vehicles in 1978. You'll have to invent and install ABS and stability control, too. Make the car much quieter, handle better, and ride smoother. Most of these either require power or add weight or both.
Now reduce the emissions of your Omni by 90% or more. Keep the power the same. No, wait, add 30HP.
NOW tell me how many miles per gallon you get with your 70's engine tech while matching ALL aspects of modern-car performance.
Carpool/HOV lanes (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought the point of HOV lanes was to have fewer cars on the road.
Allowing hybrids there does not encourage fewer cars out there.
But, you say, hybrids are really efficient, and the allowances helps fight polution.
Well, hybrids, by design are the most efficient in stop and go traffics.
Braking charges the batteries.
But in the HOV lane, hybrids are slowing less, so using the gas engine more.
Re:learn to drive (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll bet your Eclipse doesn't average 50+ MPG no matter how you drive it. Mine can range from 35 with a lead foot and hard braking to 65+ with some serious discipline and appropriate terrain/weather conditions. Coming back from Vegas for 389 miles of driving I averaged 74.8 MPG (but the trip is mostly downhill). I'm mostly highway driving (95%). City driving can be a nuissance. If I do a lot I'll average about 45-48 MPG. But, now I plan all my errands for the week in such ways I can do it all at once, I know where the "efficient" roads are to travel for the best FE around my regular communte and a few other less frequent places. Don't drive during lunch and so on. Depending on the wind, I have 3 different commute options so there's a 75% chance I can get in a direction for at least half the trip where the wind pushes me.
On two occasions for 11-13 miles I have achieved 104 MPG but its not something that I can regularize. On the same tanks, I might start with 104 MPG but I'll end with about 53 MPG or so.
In all, the Civic hybrid is a robust car and quite capable of performing as advertised.
Thanks,
Leabre
Re:HP = torque x RPM x Conversion constant. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because the most vocal group of hybrid owners are agenda-pushing, "I'm better than you because I'm hugging trees" (based on what the media tells me, but I don't really know the facts), starbucks-moca-frappa-apple-cina-chino-at-$6-a-po
Really need a total cost of ownership (Score:5, Insightful)
Now we know (Score:2, Insightful)
Enron-style accounting lives and flourishes at the Departments of Labor AND at the EPA!
Why am I not surprised?
Re:Beware of what? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've given up wondering why so many people seem to simply not care whether they live or die, and keep all my attention on not killing them.
Re:Beware of what? (Score:5, Insightful)
What the new rules are designed to do, and what the American car manufacturers is upset about, is to close a loophole that allows the American manufacturers to ignore minimum standards in the fuel consumption of the fleet. This is not an evil plot by the government, this is something that the government was forced to enact due to the repeated failure of the manufacturers to obey the spirit of the law.
Two examples. Cars had certain requirements to help protect our environment, but trucks necessarily did not. The manufactures created this loop hole by saying the farmers and small business could not afford the extra equipment and such equipment was not necessary if rural areas. The congress agreed. In response to this loophole the manufacturers started pushing the SUV because they did not have to put as much technology in it, and therefore the cost to produce was often cheaper. Then, due to certain vagaries in the tax law, they realized the could push really huge SUV and trucks, as the cost after tax deduction can actually be cheaper than smaller, better built, more fuel efficient vehicle. Such things forces responsible manufacturer, like subaru, to end up a competitive disadvantage when they build cars that won't kill the family of four in the Honda Cvcc.
Which brings us to today. The fuel consumption estimates for hybrids is a jake, and allows manufacturers to seriously underestimate the average fuel consumption for of their fleet. For example, for can use the wildly overestimated fuel consumption on the Hybrid escape to compensate for the fuel consumption on the Expedition, which, even though fuel saving technology increases every year, the fuel consumption does not get better. With the old rules this basically evened out, and the overall fuel consumption remained constant. However, with the new rules they are in trouble. Ford wants to blame the company trouble on health care of the line workers, but I bet it is more an issue of using funds for executive pay rather than R&D. Why else were they so afraid of disclosing executive pay, and why else would they be so happy that the SEC rescinded the requirement to fully disclose compensation. And the fact that the order came the day before christmas was even more interesting.
Which leads to today.
Re:air conditioning effects mileage? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Beware of what? (Score:3, Insightful)
As a pedestrian, when trying to cross the road, I put some effort into looking like I'm completely oblivious to the cars in the road and just walking into the road like an idiot trying to get myself killed. This works way better at getting them to stop and let me cross than stopping and staring at them does. I do make sure that if the cars don't stop for me I'm not actually going to be in the way, but watching a car out of the corner of my eye while blatantly looking the other way and walking towards the road works wonders to getting them to stop.