Laptop Fuel Cells Coming Soon 181
tomsastroblog writes "Soon laptop batteries could last all day and be recharged from a cartridge. BBC News has a piece on fuel cells as laptop batteries, and what their adoption could mean for laptop usage." From the article: "At the Cebit technology fair in Hanover, Taiwanese hi-tech firm Antig said its fuel cells should be on the shelves of computer shops by early 2007. The first versions of the methanol-using units should keep a laptop going for up to nine hours. Fuel cell technology got a boost recently when international air flight regulators changed rules that banned passengers from carrying flammable methanol onto aircraft."
eheheh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:eheheh (Score:2, Funny)
That isn't the laptop burning your legs. The Alien that sat in that seat before you got a paper cut and bled acid all over the upholstery. Check the back of your pants before standing up--that could be really embarrassing!
Re:eheheh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:eheheh (Score:3, Funny)
Price and Stocks (Score:5, Insightful)
--
BMW Forum [unitedbimmer.com]
Re:Price and Stocks (Score:3, Informative)
Europe (Valid through March 31, 2006)
European Posted Contract Price Euro 268/MT
North America (Valid through March 31, 2006)
Methanex Non-Discounted Reference Price USD 1.07/Gal* USD 356/MT
Asia Pacific (Valid through March 31, 2006)
Asian Posted
Re:Price and Stocks (Score:3, Insightful)
I think he may have been talking about the price of the technology, not the price of methanol as fuel.
Re:Price and Stocks (Score:2)
Is this some sort of methanol specific unit ? What does it translate to in SI units ?
Re:Price and Stocks (Score:2)
Re:Price and Stocks (Score:2)
Media bay vs battery bay (Score:2)
That said, I would definitely prefer it in the battery bay.
Hardware: Laptop Fuel Cells Coming Soon ... (Score:1, Interesting)
Seriously, hasn't this appeared every few months for the last 2 years? Can't we have stories about products being 'here' - and preferably built in, rather than having a giant can of Zippo hanging off the side?
I'll get modded down as Cynical or something, but any way you view it, it's true...
Re:Hardware: Laptop Fuel Cells Coming Soon ... (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the "giant can of Zippo," yes, we would all like to have a fuel cell battery that lasts for a week and fits right into the old battery slot, but cut them a little slack. It's a new thing and it's bound to improve and the fact that there may be a laptop fuel cell at all in the near future is pretty interesting.
Dupe (Score:1, Redundant)
Right around the corner.... (Score:2)
Re:Right around the corner.... (Score:2)
Convenience Really Counts (Score:4, Insightful)
Hence, what % of laptop owners would buy a new and no doubt very expensive methanol fuel cell module &, expensive methanol (prepackaged of course), and this assumes a properly package fuel cell module is available for your particular Laptop.
If it leaks and destroys your laptop is it covered by a warranty that replaces your laptop?
Lots of unanswered questions
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people wouldn't care whether it's a micro-fusion reactor in their laptop or a flock of nano-gerbils on micro-running-wheels as long as they get good life out of the thing. Well I suppose PETA would take some offense to the latter, but they don't need to know. Point being, for most people, having a laptop is all about mobility, and for the most part battery life is the main issue that comes into play, probably with network access coming in next.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
Available now 7+ hours battery life (Score:2)
* Intel® Centrino(TM) Mobile Technology.
* Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
* Ultra-light 2.76 pounds
* Up to 7.5 hours of battery life
Which one? (Score:2)
I recently got a **new** LiION battery for my laptop. Total cost was about $50. (I found the
Also you can get a 12V car adapter and an external 12V battery pack really cheap ~$100. [External LiION batteries for laptops are much more expensive and less flexible].
If you can run your CPU at half/lower speed and turn down the LCD brightness, it helps a lot.
My laptop draws ~4amps at full load/speed wit
Re:Which one? (Score:2)
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
If the existing batteries in your laptop leak and destroy your laptop, are they covered by a warranty that replaces your laptop?
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
With day-long Fuel Cells, the car battery won't be necessary, but how would this guy charge up those things sitting in his tent in
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
But lots of people do sit on planes or trains for 8 or more hours. I don't know about US domestic flights but on international, I have only occasionally been able to connect my laptop power so far
Re:Convenience Really Counts (Score:2)
I need a fuel cell powered laptop... (Score:5, Insightful)
You realize... (Score:3, Interesting)
Consumers aren't the only ones looking forward to this.
Re:You realize... (Score:3, Insightful)
Never before has anyone had to purchase daily consumables for their computer.
My bet, once these take off, they will be sold in the stores at the cig counters alongside the lighter fuel.
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Re:You realize... (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of people keep saying this, but it just doesn't hold true!
First of all, methanol doesn't pose nearly the health risk most people believe. As someone with a solid non-practitioner background in both chemistry and pharmacology, I would play with methanol over toner or ink any day... Additionally, the breakdown products the the electrolyte in Li-ion batteries makes methanol exposure look like a cool drink of mountain water by comparison (for an idea, the most common counts as a chemical WMD in a different context).
Second, methanol doesn't pose nearly the fire/explosion risk most people believe. The Li-ion batteries we use now pose a FAR greater risk of explosion, and as for fire, if you take the same precautions you would when refueling your car (with yet another far more flamable/explosive liquid), you have nothing to worry about.
Third, refilling... Aside from the previously-mentioned toxicity of ink and toner, methanol evaporates cleanly. So if you spill a few drops, you can just let them evaporate rather than permanantly staining yourself, your table, your laptop, your carpet, your dog, and seemingly anything else even in sight of the ink refill kit.
The biggest complaint about the idea of using fuel cells over a rechargeable battery in laptops comes from the UPS-factor. Even an all-but-dead laptop battery will let it stay up (assuming you have it on AC) through a short power outage, or to move to another outlet, or to quickly reinsert the plug your cat pulled out, etc. Running on a fuel cell, all those advantages disappear unless you use the fuel cell as your primary power source, which could get expensive over time (despite methanol's low cost, AC power costs a hell of a lot less).
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Re:You realize... (Score:3, Informative)
Like you said, toner isn't exactly the most friendly substance either, when I was younger a couple of friends and I got a couple bott
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Cheaply built batteries will either not have this at all, or will be made so poorly that they become damaged in ordinary use.
I've found most of these cheap batteries also have nowhere near the life that a good "authentic" version has, even if it has the supposedly same MaH rating on its label (like they wouldnt fake that
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Re:You realize... (Score:3, Informative)
The "culprit" involves nothing more and nothing less than an autocatalyzing eletrolyte decomposition product. "Name brand" has nothing at all to do with that.
Now, some higher-quality batteries may use what amounts to a catalyst posion (the choice of anode material, for example, plays a HUGE role in decomposition rate). But don't assume the original manufacturer uses anything even remotely resembling high quali
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Re:You realize... (Score:2)
Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:5, Insightful)
For me this is something i have longed for since the dawn of laptops.
Re:Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:1)
Re:Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:2)
Re:Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:2)
Hobby shops or chemical distributors.
Now, if they can make the fuel cell run on methanol, ethanol, or a mix of the two, then your options are wide open. Just buy a gallon of denatured alcohol at the hardware store and you're good for a week or two of untethered operation...
Re:Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:2)
I don't know where you are, but around here I can get meth on just about every street corner.
Are fuel cells the right answer? (Score:4, Interesting)
That's why I got the IBM X41 - I have a 7 cell extra-life battery plugged into the back, and a second slim battery that plugs onto the base of the laptop. The two together give me between 7 and 10 hours of battery life, depending on what I'm doing (usually programming, so I'm not a 'power' user).
Buying the IBM was one of the best decisions I've ever made (no connection to the company, or to Levono who now own their PC business). After my recent flight from London Heathrow to Toronto I had 1.5hrs of battery life left on the machine when I shut it down as we were preparing to land.
So... this wasn't that expensive - the laptop and all batteries were less than 1000GBP including tax... is there really a genuine need for fuel cells?
Jolyon
Re:Are fuel cells the right answer? (Score:2)
This is something long since needed in electric cars.
Re:Are fuel cells the right answer? (Score:2)
I can see Schick planning its response to the Gillette Turbo now....
Re:Are fuel cells the right answer? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Laptop, not plugstop. (Score:2)
Agreed. Laptops are mostly used as portable laptops from my experience as well. This however is not affecting productivity as far as I've seen. At work we typically roam from room to room with our AC-adapters for meetings, presentations or getting some work done in the labs. Coupled with this we also roam to different client locations which all have power outlets for our adapters
More useful (Score:4, Interesting)
* No bigger than a mains PSU brick
* Easily replenishable whilst running
* Inexpensive
* Under ten dollars shipping on eBay
OK, that last was a wise crack, but let's sort out the machines that are out there first. After all, what's the point of having your Lappy 486's 41 pounds of allegedly portable dominance running for nine hours if you can't watch a DVD on the 'plane? (RTFA: Media bay, not battery slot)
Re:More useful (Score:2)
Sorry, obscure reference. You may want to check out Strong Bad's e-mail on Technology.
Not just laptops, but cell phones too (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not just laptops, but cell phones too (Score:2)
Sounds Dangerous (Score:4, Funny)
From the MSDS for Methanol [bu.edu]:
It's a neurotoxin! It casues blindness! And it's highly flammable!
Sounds like a terrorist's dream.
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a terrorist's dream.
These toxic effects take far to much time for it to be effective as a weapon. Plus you would need an incredible amount of it if you planned to kill people with an methanol aerosol. In fact ethanol (another neurotoxin you may be more familiar with) might be more effective for this. If you offer it free in a glass to most people, they will actually drink it!
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:2)
No kidding. By the time they started to try and spray methanol everywhere, I know I would give serious thought to using a low tech "beat the living bejesus out of them" with my old school li-ion battery pack.
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:4, Funny)
Now that's a terrorist's dream. Methanol is the least of our problems.
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:3, Interesting)
Sounds like whiskey. Well, that's an exageration. But the key fact here is that methanol (methyl alcohol) and ethanol (ethyl alcohol, or just alcohol to most people) are both alcohols, and thus share characteristics, such as flamability and toxicity. The main difference is that methanol is not considered safe for beverage use in any quantity (though some people drink it anyway), whereas ethanol is conside
Re:Sounds Dangerous (Score:2)
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/S3338.htm [jtbaker.com]
Inhalation:
May cause mild irritation to the respiratory tract.
Ingestion:
Very large doses can cause vomiting, diarrhea, and prostration. Dehydration and congestion occur in most internal organs. Hypertonic salt solutions can produce violent inflammatory reactions in the gastrointestinal tract.
Skin Contact:
May irritate damaged skin; absorption can occur with effects similar to those via ingestion.
Eye Contact
SmartFuelCell (Score:5, Informative)
Last week, it was 8 hours... (Score:2)
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/0 3/03/0134241
enlighten me (Score:2)
Cost + fuel medium (Score:4, Informative)
So, the size of the reaction interface determines the power that you can get out of the fuel cell, and the size of the energy reservoir determines how long it will last.
A laptop draws, what, 100 watts peak? A car with an 80 hp engine is at 60 kW - 600 times more. A fuel cell big enough to power that would be prohibitive in cost. Not to mention, the fuel cell will degrade with time - impurities in the fuel, and (if it's a polymer cell), degradation in the polymer itself.
Next point is the fuel medium. The energy density of methanol is less than gasoline, at about 22MJ/kg vs 45MJ/kg for gasoline. So, assuming comparable fuel efficency with the internal combustion + mechanical drive vs fuel cell + motors, you'd need twice as much fuel.
There are no good fuel cells that operate on gasoline - the more complex the hydrocarbon, the harder it is to build a fuel cell. Couple that with the way the sulpher tends to kill fuel cells, and it's not feasable (low sulpher gasoline is available - have you ever seen guarenteed no sulpher gasoline?)
So, it would cost more, and you'd only get half the distance on a single tank of methanol. Assuming that you can get the methanol. The whole fuel distribution problem is a seperate case.
All the numbers here are conservative - I'm sure my powerbook draws significantly less than 100W, 80 hp is at the low end for a car - I believe 100hp is more typical. The laptop fuel cells don't use pure methanol, it's methanol and water, further reducing the energy density.
Re:enlighten me (Score:2)
They can, and do. Once the price comes down (or people become willing to pay $500,000 for a car), and the infrastructure issues get worked out, we will have them.
Ok I don't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Ok I don't get it. (Score:2)
Bad Idea - I can't drink it! (Score:2)
Methanol On Board (Score:3, Insightful)
So now when the guy sitting next to you's computer bombs, it means something entirely different.
Ultra capacitors are the future (Score:2)
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/projects/cnt_ultracap_pro ject.htm [mit.edu]
Ultra capacitors now can hols 6Wh/kg which is only a fraction of conventional Li-Ion batteries but according to MIT this can be boosed to 1000 battery capasity by using nanotubes.
And ultra capacitors have a large number of advantages: no dangerous components, recharge in a matter of minutes, better temperature tolerance, longer durability
I don't know why people bo
Re:Ultra capacitors are the future (Score:2)
Because they may want long life laptop power cells in 1 or 2 years as oposed to in 10 or 20 years?
Re:Ultra capacitors are the future (Score:2)
how about:
a) toxic nanoparticles (potentially carciogenic?)
b) recharge is current-limited. A supercap that actually HAS more capacity/volume than a LiIon would melt if you try to charge it that quickly
c) ultra-low breakthrough voltage, requires extensive step-up circuit.
d) those 6 Wh/kg EXTREMELY warp the picture to benefit supercaps (as they
Re:Ultra capacitors are the future (Score:2)
True, nano and micro particles in the air can be harmfull, but this is not the case for the nanotubes in a closed container. When the ultracapasitor is disposed it contains less harmful chemicals than a Li-Ion battery.
b) You have a point, but this is mostly an engineering problem to make it charge correctly. Wether they would melt is a completely unfounded
Is that 'soon' as in... (Score:2)
The big question! (Score:5, Funny)
Dupe - Ten-year-old News Story (Score:3, Interesting)
China Syndrome in miniature (Score:3, Funny)
I think the big picture issue here (Score:2)
Same story, different year - (Score:2)
Anyway - I'm just tired of hearing this tired, recycled bull about "laptop fuel cells" - I was on board with it until the 2nd story came out around the time cells hyped in the first article were supposed to see market...
It seems like the "this will be on the shelves by" date has getting incremented by 12 to 18 months each time the story sees daylight since the I first started seeing it in - what, 2003? 2004?
The point about it that disrupts the "willfull suspension of disbelief" that I typically rely
Real turnoff for fuelcells - electricity vs. heat (Score:2)
Re:dupe?!?!?!?! (Score:5, Informative)
New Tag Required (Score:2)
[+] power, fuelcell, laptops, dupe (tagging beta)
The developers should arrange that once a new article is tagged, up pops a list of references to all other articles with a similar tags match (arranged in reverse chronological order) so they can check for dupes - or would that be too sensible - or does it happen but the editors are just sloppy?
Re:dupe?!?!?!?! (Score:2)
Re:dupe?!?!?!?! (Score:2)
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/fuel_cell
But hey, that's just me. It links to Engadget, though, so maybe that's where you read about it.
Re:"flammable" (Score:3, Informative)
Re:"flammable" (Score:2)
adj.
Easily ignited and capable of burning rapidly; inflammable.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=flammabl
Re:"flammable" (Score:2)
"inflame" comes from the same lating word as flammable (flamma), but is more often used figuratively or in non-technical contexts e.g. "imflammable issue".
Re:"flammable" (Score:3, Funny)
Definition of inflammable [reference.com]:
1. Easily ignited and capable of burning rapidly; flammable.
2. Quickly or easily aroused to strong emotion; excitable.
Definition of flammable [reference.com]:
1. Easily ignited and capable of burning rapidly; inflammable.
Re:"flammable" (Score:3, Funny)
Re:"flammable" (Score:2)
Judging by the response, that doesn't work on the Internet though... :-)
Re:"flammable" (Score:3, Funny)
Re:We should think about polution as well (Score:3, Interesting)
What does methanhol burn to? probably CO2 and water vapor?
Re:We should think about polution as well (Score:2)
A methanol fuelcell for a laptop produces CO2 and water vapor at about the rate of a single human lung. The average human anus releases a far greater quantity of toxic gas than one of these fuelcells. If you are worried about smog in airplanes, processing the human flatus would yield more for your efforts.
Processing human flatus might sound like a joke... (Score:2)
[insert joke]
I've got a friend whose wife has IBS. That's how I know.
Re:flammable methanol? (Score:2)
Re:Flammable methanol permitted? (Score:2)