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Desktops (Apple) Businesses Hardware Apple

Apple's First Flops 434

Sabah Arif writes "Apple began the eighties with two major flops under its belt: the Apple III and the LISA. Both machines were attempts at breaking into the business market. They were technologically advanced, but major flaws prevented their success."
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Apple's First Flops

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  • Sounds reasonable. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Televisor ( 827008 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @06:35AM (#12552812) Homepage
    I'd say two major flops are a pretty good hit/miss ratio compared to the number of products they've had out, 2:50 or so.
  • Apple Pippin (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thedogcow ( 694111 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @06:37AM (#12552826)
    What about the Apple Pippin? Few people know about Apples ill-fated console release.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @06:38AM (#12552837)
    I don't know if there are some Mac addicts here who can remember it, but the "AV" machines back then (660 AV and 840AV iirc) with their AT&T 3210 DSP, GeoPort, etc... were nicknamed Mac III

    And of course were an horrible flop :)

    It's funny because back then, the nickname "Mac III" made a lot of people associate it with Apple III, and there was, in the Mac hackers community, a bad feeling about it ...

    Apple: Never again use "III" in a product name :)

    Ben.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:07AM (#12553037)
    Disclaimer: I'm an Apple fan, owner, and former employee (certainly not a high-level one, though).

    That said, Apple screws up a lot, particularly in first versions of a new product. As the article says, the Lisa was a flop, but it led to the original Mac, which led to the real hit, the Mac II.

    The Mac Portable was a terrible product--but it led to the Powerbook, which defined the laptop computer. The Cube was overpriced and didn't have a market, but it led to the Mini, which is kicking ass.

    The iPod was a hit from the jump, but the Newton was dead from its announcement date (we knew it was in trouble when they started handing them out as employee awards).
  • Re:Apple Pippin (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FidelCatsro ( 861135 ) <fidelcatsro&gmail,com> on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:14AM (#12553079) Journal
    a few pippin links
    http://www.businessweek.com/1996/14/b346998.htm [businessweek.com]
    the business week artical from 96
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin [wikipedia.org]
    The wikipedia entry

    http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/ [macgeek.org]
    and the macgeek pippin / bandi museem

    I belive it was released by bandi it just got drowned by the price and the fact it was a bit ahead of its time (look at consoles now , offering simmilar multi media features)
  • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) * on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:27AM (#12553146)
    You just cant beat 1980s technical support. A friend of mine use to work for Cray back in the 80s. When the systems timing wasn't just quite right a technician will go to the system and cut the wire a little shorter so the electrons will get there a little quicker. Technology back then if you ever compare the electronics were a lot bigger and more durable. large solder blobs to keep the chip in place with the board. An extra wire soldered on to fix a bug in the design. just filled with ICs. It is great stuff. With this type of stuff you can actually figure out how it works. Figuring that you has the specs of every IC.
  • I agree with your sentiment; using the Apple developer tools and environment as standard would be sweet as. Even back in the mid 1990s the NeXT developer environment was absolute luxury. The problem is most heads of IT (and most IT support staff) depend on Windows for their livelihood so aren't about to endorse a switch to Mac, Linux, OpenVMS or anything else.
  • Apple History (Score:2, Interesting)

    by hendridm ( 302246 ) * on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:33AM (#12553187) Homepage

    I always found the history of Apple, Inc. and their technology fascinating. I'm 26, and the first computer I used at school was an Apple IIe. My first computer my parents bought me was a IIgs. That was a great machine in its day, if only it had a hard drive it would have essentially been a Mac since it had an early version of the Mac GUI. At that time, anyone who was anyone in BBS land wanted a PC though, so I switched and am still using x86 hardware today (I don't care to start an argument - terminal software and BBS software was far superior on the PC at the time). Nonetheless, I enjoy reading about Apple history.

    Ok, I did have a point to this post. Another great site is:
    www.apple-history.com
    (Not hyperlinked on purpose - be gentle. And no, I'm not affiliated with this site.)

    I can still find nostalgic messages we posted on Fidonet via USENET when I search once in awhile. That was before I discovered the USENET, which AFAIK was largely accessed with UNIX at the time. Oh, how naive I was, and probably still am.

  • Lovverly Lisa (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Cally ( 10873 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:43AM (#12553239) Homepage
    The Lisa wasn't a commercial success but it certainly was a technological success, paving the way for the Mac. (If you haven't seen a picture of one, google around... they looked a bit like an original Mac (aka 'Mac Classic') rotated through 90 degrees. It had a revolutionary WIMP interface. I remember as an awestruck almost-teenager reading a breathless review in the UK's then only PC mag, "Personal Computer World" which said "the only bad thing we could find to say about it is that some of the icons look a little whimsical. How long could you look at a whimsical icon before it becomes irritating?" It was also over eight grand sterling, four times the price of the ugly, clunky CGA IBM PCs that were the competition...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:43AM (#12553244)
    As I recall, Apple didn't even invented the GUI [aci.com.pl] or even where the first to release a computer with WYSIWYG.

    The 3.5" drive where developed by sony 1980.
  • Re:Apple IIGS? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MouseR ( 3264 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @07:50AM (#12553273) Homepage
    Oh no that wasn't.

    That machine was the last of the Apple //s and did very well. It introduced a number of additions that eventually made their way into the Mac world, such as ADB input bus. It had 16-bit graphics when Macs were still black and white, 16-chanel sound chip (the Mac had a 4-way back then I believe).

    That machine would have made Apple big, had they had not spent all their marketing efforts onto the Mac (whose hardware was inferior in many areas to the GS, but whose OS was superior).
  • by CrazyTalk ( 662055 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @08:16AM (#12553404)
    I had (well have, its still in a box in my basement) a Centris 660AV - at the time I thought it was a phenomenal macine, with a separate processor to handle things like speech recognition and a CD-ROM drive built in (you had to use a special caddy for each CD, never mind slot loading!) Like the Lisa, it was ahead of its time.
  • Re:Apple Pippin (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @08:18AM (#12553417)
    The shape of the controller for the Playstation 3 looks very similar to the one used by the Pippin.

    Hopefully they won't suffer the same fate.
  • by Hunter.Peck ( 884610 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @08:25AM (#12553454) Homepage
    Only one picture was ever officially published of the Giotto stylus/tablet as I remember, and I'm not sure if it was a Newton on steroids or fully functional PC, but as an artist, writer, and MAC enthusiast, I knew I wanted one. I could find no surviving references during a quick search. It is sad and wonderful seeing great ideas appear before their time even when they then die; the creative spirit is indomitable!
  • by MtViewGuy ( 197597 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @08:47AM (#12553586)
    The Cube was overpriced and didn't have a market, but it led to the Mini, which is kicking ass.

    If Apple had just priced the G4 Cube correctly it would have been a hit, because its desktop footprint is really not much bigger than the currently fashionable Mac Mini. And it would have allowed people to buy less-expensive monitors, keyboards and mouse pointers, too.

    The iPod was a hit from the jump....

    I have to disagree with that. It was only when the version for Windows that included USB 2.0 support came out and the unveiling of the iTunes Music Store that the iPod really took off in popularity.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @08:53AM (#12553628)
    If Apple had just priced the G4 Cube correctly it would have been a hit, because its desktop footprint is really not much bigger than the currently fashionable Mac Mini. And it would have allowed people to buy less-expensive monitors, keyboards and mouse pointers, too.

    I agree completely. The Cube didn't have a market because it was overpriced.

    I have to disagree with that. It was only when the version for Windows that included USB 2.0 support came out and the unveiling of the iTunes Music Store that the iPod really took off in popularity.

    I don't agree 100%; the iPod was a clear success from its first launch, but you do have a good point about the overall market exploding with the PC version--and again, that goes to show that Apple tends to do much better with the second and third iterations of a product than with the first.
  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @09:26AM (#12554022) Homepage Journal
    Yes.

    However, we are talking about a hypothetical situation where Apple is the desktop monopolist, not Microsoft. Naturally, they'd want you to buy everything from them, but very likely they would be forced to allow competitors to build competitive hardware, just like IBM was in the 70s.
  • 4 years ago, (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Beefslaya ( 832030 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @09:27AM (#12554050)
    I wouldn't have even considered a Mac or Apple computer for my business...

    I am looking at 4 dual G5 Xserves for my mail infrastructure. So evidently they have made HUGE progress.

    Perhaps they are starting to realize that "looks" aren't everything, and sticking to industry standards is vital to getting into the business market (Unlike Microsoft).

    It's interesting to see where Apple has been, and where they are going. Maybe the chip on Stevie's shoulder is wearing off?

  • by DoctoRoR ( 865873 ) * on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @10:26AM (#12554849) Homepage
    Although PCs have the edge for power/price, hardware bang for buck is becoming less of a factor except for gamers. Chip speeds and memory sizes are starting to go past consumer requirements, even if you throw in HD video, so design and software are the key factors. This may be why we see Apple recapturing some market share.

    There's enough of a market within homes, particularly digital homes, to drive Apple growth without business penetration. Apple is trying to be the new Sony and the hardware is a commodity; it's the software and design that are the real added values.
  • Apple /// not a flop (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @10:41AM (#12555057)
    I was a systems software engineer on the Apple ///. The Apple /// was not a flop because it was introduced just as the "pink sheet" of disclosure was issued before the stock went successfully public.

    By releasing the product early we could prove that we were not a "one product company" and thus likely raised hundreds of millions of dollars in an optimistic market.

    The Apple /// was a resounding success despite the "daughter board" with the oxidizing molex pins and the National Semi clock chip which failed from moisture incursion. The "customer" fr the Apple /// however was the IPO stock purchaser.

    Jobs, Wozniak and dozens of others newly made millions at the turn of 1980 laughed all the way to the bank. Wendell Sanders, the lead designer, took the heat, but he made some money as well.
  • by balamw ( 552275 ) * on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @01:20PM (#12557143)

    IMHO running OSX on "x86" doesn't necessarily imply generic beige boxes. For example, Apple could easily build its own x86 boxes and still maintain hardware control, or they could have someone else build boxes to a particular spec that would be OSX-x86 compatible. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are good examples of controlled x86 and PPC hardware from the "other guys".

    What I think would be really cool would be a box that is designed specifically to run OSX-x86, but can also run XP and/or XP apps natively without emulation (dual boot, vmware, wine, ...).

    B
  • lisa a flop? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by psaltes ( 9811 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @01:47PM (#12557517)
    Reading sites like this one [folklore.org], it seems pretty clear that while LISA was a flop in and of itself, the original mac would never have been a success without it. This is both in terms of personnel (several key people were involved with both) and ideas - there was a lot of cross-pollination (though it doesn't sound like the LISA people were happy about that). So as a product, LISA was a flop, but as an investment by Apple, I'd think it should be considered wildly successful.
  • by soft_guy ( 534437 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @02:14PM (#12557885)
    My field is programming and I do almost all of my programming on a Macintosh.

    I find that it is easy to write cross platform C++ on the Mac and then port it to Windows. I've done it the other way too, but I like XCode better than MS Visual Catastrophe. And for GUI, I like Qt or else I use Cocoa on Mac and Win32 on Windows. The nice thing about Cocoa is you don't accidentally put a Cocoa call into your cross platform C++ module, because Cocoa requires Objective-C or Objective-C++ which makes it easy to identify which files are portable.

    The times I ask people to write portable code on Windows, I've been clusterfucked by people who will stick a Win32 call right in the middle of platform independent code, so I got Macs for my team.
  • by soft_guy ( 534437 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @02:21PM (#12557968)
    A major part of the deal was to end Apple's lawsuit over the fact that Microsoft stole the source code for Quicktime for Windows and put it into Video for Windows without permission. Also, Microsoft was violating many of Apple's patents.

    They threatened to cancel Office for Mac if Apple didn't take the deal and drop all the lawsuits.

  • by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Tuesday May 17, 2005 @05:34PM (#12560269)
    I don't know if there are some Mac addicts here who can remember it, but the "AV" machines back then (660 AV and 840AV iirc) with their AT&T 3210 DSP, GeoPort, etc... were nicknamed Mac III [...]And of course were an horrible flop :)

    I had a 660AV, and it was a nice machine- I liked it; it was an affordable 68040, and that's why I bought it (I believe- this was almost 10 years ago). Speech recognition was kind of cool, but didn't work all that well. The software modem stuff was crap, the DSP-powered fractals only exciting for about 5 minutes. It was one of the newer machines capable of loading its ROM into RAM for a very noticeable speedup, at the penalty of a couple MB of lost memory, and memory was megabucks at the time. Basically, Apple oversold the DSP capabilities, because virtually NOTHING came out that actually used the DSP, even though it was very quick. PowerPC came along, and everyone promptly forgot about the DSPs.

    ...but MAN oh MAN could that thing crash in spectacular ways. Why? Well, the main OS would crash, but the DSP would keep chugging along, but would get garbage from the main system...and you'd get an incredible video acid trip, along with all sorts of squeals, static, etc from the audio. One time, my soft-modem went completely bonkers, going on+off hook like crazy until I pulled the plug.

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