Apple's First Flops 434
Sabah Arif writes "Apple began the eighties with two major flops under its belt: the Apple III and the LISA. Both machines were attempts at breaking into the business market. They were technologically advanced, but major flaws prevented their success."
want one ... (Score:5, Funny)
"The press declared the machine and its software revolutionary. In a matter of months, the Macintosh had revolutionized Apple and the computer business" - they revolutionized and other company rules the market ?
Sounds reasonable. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
They would probably require assurance that OS X could actually be a real revenue source before they make the switch.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:3, Interesting)
However, we are talking about a hypothetical situation where Apple is the desktop monopolist, not Microsoft. Naturally, they'd want you to buy everything from them, but very likely they would be forced to allow competitors to build competitive hardware, just like IBM was in the 70s.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm in no way a graphical artist, my field is programming, and the hardware just don't cut it yet.
That's why I'd love for it to be available on x86, good hardware combined with good software.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup. (Score:2, Insightful)
I love OSX, but I use WinXP. I would love to be able to pick up a copy of OSX for x86. I'd most certainly embrace it, even if the OS was priced higher than XP.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
x86 itself doesn't imply loss of control (Score:4, Interesting)
IMHO running OSX on "x86" doesn't necessarily imply generic beige boxes. For example, Apple could easily build its own x86 boxes and still maintain hardware control, or they could have someone else build boxes to a particular spec that would be OSX-x86 compatible. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are good examples of controlled x86 and PPC hardware from the "other guys".
What I think would be really cool would be a box that is designed specifically to run OSX-x86, but can also run XP and/or XP apps natively without emulation (dual boot, vmware, wine, ...).
BExcept that you are wrong (Score:5, Informative)
For most consumers, hardware is less of a factor (Score:4, Interesting)
There's enough of a market within homes, particularly digital homes, to drive Apple growth without business penetration. Apple is trying to be the new Sony and the hardware is a commodity; it's the software and design that are the real added values.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:4, Interesting)
I find that it is easy to write cross platform C++ on the Mac and then port it to Windows. I've done it the other way too, but I like XCode better than MS Visual Catastrophe. And for GUI, I like Qt or else I use Cocoa on Mac and Win32 on Windows. The nice thing about Cocoa is you don't accidentally put a Cocoa call into your cross platform C++ module, because Cocoa requires Objective-C or Objective-C++ which makes it easy to identify which files are portable.
The times I ask people to write portable code on Windows, I've been clusterfucked by people who will stick a Win32 call right in the middle of platform independent code, so I got Macs for my team.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:3, Funny)
Only a mac user can take a shortcoming like the lack of Cocoa C++ bindings and turn it into a feature.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:3, Interesting)
They threatened to cancel Office for Mac if Apple didn't take the deal and drop all the lawsuits.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Growth is now the biggest threat to Apple because it is not so simple to scale your business to meet the demands of the market. Already Apple is feeling the strain, employees are being worked dang hard and the company is struggling to keep up supply. Success of Ipods, Ibooks and Mini's is so high that new OEM's are being used and all the long while, they still need to keep the quality and standards up to par with their reputation. If the mini's all started to exhibit failures and poor workmanship than that would harm the crossover (new mac users) market more than anything the competition could hope for.
The best situation for Apple now is to stabilize the growth and scale the infrastructure so it all runs smoothly. In EU there have been three month delays in some shops and that simply won't do.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2)
It's been done over and over between VW, audi, and Porche; and between Ford and Mercury; and between Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick. I see no reason why the difference between a Dodge and a Mercedes can't be reduced to the badge. Brand names are only marketing labels, after all, and have no inherent meaning (at least not if owned by the same people).
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:3, Informative)
Strangely enough, that seems to be happening [xlr8yourmac.com].
I've been drooling over screenshots/reviews of OS X for ages now (Unix? Nice interface?), and I was pretty much ready to shell out for a Mini as my first Mac until I saw that report -- and many others like them [google.co.uk].
It's a shame, but I don't really want to shell out £350+ with the ri
Lots of CFOs.. (Score:2)
but then what CFO in his right mind would get locked into a single vendor for the OS and hardware
IBM and Sun don't seem to have a horrible time of it. If the benefits outweigh any (percieved) risks, then it'll take care of itself. That's what's happening now. You think having a whole company 0wn3d by spyware is cheap?
The original killer app. (Score:2, Informative)
Visicalc [bricklin.com] nearly did that. But since IBM had yet to legitimize personal computers with their "entry level systems," PCs were still looked upon by the business community as hobbyist toys.
Visicalc? (Score:5, Insightful)
Only after they got crushed by IBM machines did they focus on thier current market. I don't think IBM did them in as much as the IBM clone market, which reduced the cost of the hardware to far below Apple's. With a lower price, more people purchased IBM-compatible machines and the demand for software followed.
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:5, Informative)
From Wikipedia: "The Apple LaserWriter was one of the first laser printers available to the mass market. Combined with GUI-based programs like Adobe PageMaker on the Macintosh, it is generally considered to have sparked the Desktop publishing (DTP) revolution in the mid-1980s.
Unlike models from HP, which had been introduced a few months earlier and used their proprietary PCL printing language, the LaserWriter included the PostScript page description language which allowed for far more complex graphics, high-resolution bitmap graphics, outline fonts, and generally much better-looking output.
The use of PostScript comes at a cost. Unlike PCL and other early printer control languages, PostScript is a complete programming language and requires a complete computer to run it. In the case of the LaserWriter this was a Motorola 68000 CPU running at 12MHz, making it the fastest machine in Apple's lineup, and the most expensive at $6,995 when it was introduced in late 1985."
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2)
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:3)
You've got to admit, this: "After being used for a day or two, the mainboard would get so hot it would warp and unseat some of the chips. Apple refused to install a fan to fix the problem and instructed users to drop the machine on their desk to bang the chips back into place." is pretty damn impressive as far as flops go. :P
Re:Sounds reasonable. (Score:2)
MicroSoft only had a few flops in their overall pretty successful range of products, but every now and then people start laughing about Bob again.
Flops are inherent to doing innovative business. What if we started looking at all the failed attempts at useful software on sourceforge? *grin*
(i know the last argument is flawed, it's a weak attempt at humour)
Apple Pippin (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Apple Pippin (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/14/b346998.htm [businessweek.com]
the business week artical from 96
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin [wikipedia.org]
The wikipedia entry
http://www.macgeek.org/museum/pippin/ [macgeek.org]
and the macgeek pippin / bandi museem
I belive it was released by bandi it just got drowned by the price and the fact it was a bit ahead of its time (look at consoles now , offering simmilar multi media features)
Re:Apple Pippin (Score:2, Interesting)
Hopefully they won't suffer the same fate.
Re:Apple Pippin (Score:2)
The playstation 3 on the other hand is going to be about the same price as the other major consoles , will have a wide selections of games and is very much of its time
I do agree though the controler is rather simmilar , though the ps3 controler is just an eveloution from the frist playstation controlers
flops under the belt (Score:5, Funny)
It's ok Steve... it happens to every guy! Maybe you were just nervous!
Look at you now - with your impressive... eh... Mac Mini...
Re:flops under the belt (Score:5, Funny)
Re:flops under the belt (Score:2)
And the 3rd flop was ... (Score:4, Interesting)
And of course were an horrible flop
It's funny because back then, the nickname "Mac III" made a lot of people associate it with Apple III, and there was, in the Mac hackers community, a bad feeling about it
Apple: Never again use "III" in a product name
Ben.
Re:And the 3rd flop was ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most Spectacular Crashes (Score:3, Interesting)
I had a 660AV, and it was a nice machine- I liked it; it was an affordable 68040, and that's why I bought it (I believe- this was almost 10 years ago). Speech recognition was kind of cool, but didn't work all that well. The software modem stuff was crap, the DSP-powered
old news (Score:5, Funny)
If this isn't old news.. I don't know what IS.
I call dupe. (Score:3, Insightful)
All sarcasm aside, how is this news? Yes, they were flops. Again, 20 years ago. Some site is just putting up a history now, but that still doesn't make it news. It's just blatant flamebait. Come on, editors, take "stuff that matters" to heart!
Re:I call dupe. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I call dupe. (Score:2, Funny)
Classic tech support advise! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:2)
Umm... To stop RF getting out?
Not everyone wants to pick up a computer's internal squawks and burps on their television or radio...
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:2)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:2)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:2)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Classic tech support advise! (Score:3, Informative)
Some predictions (Score:2, Insightful)
This post will also be a great opportunity for Apple hater to tell us how much Apple sucks and that everything they do is a failure. These posts will of course be modded down as this is macrumors here after all.
Additionally at least one major discussion about Apple pricing will br
Re:Some predictions (Score:3, Funny)
uh, dude- this is slashdot. macrumors' site is a lot prettier. it really isn't that hard to distinguish them...
Hot Product (Score:3, Funny)
"On top of that, Jobs' insistence that the machine have no fan made for a very hot board."
Why on earth would he object to putting a fan in it? Did he think it'd make too much noise?
My favorite part of the article: "Apple refused to install a fan to fix the problem and instructed users to drop the machine on their desk to bang the chips back into place."
What a concept! Usually when you drop things, they break. But when you drop an Apple, well, it just works (TM).
Re:Hot Product (Score:4, Informative)
Absolutely. In this day of multi-ghz processors and video cards requiring their own cooling, people forget what it's like to have a dead silent computer. Remember back then that many/most computers didn't even have hard disks, so unless you were accessing the floppy, there was no noise at all. Notice that he made the same edict when it came to the original Mac's.
What a concept! Usually when you drop things, they break. But when you drop an Apple, well, it just works (TM).
Actually this was a common problem with all computers of that era. Wasn't uncommon at all to have chips work their way loose, esp new computers. I'd get new units and the first thing I'd do is re-seat all the socketed chips, esp the memory dips as trouble shooting your computer locking up or randomly rebooting (ahhh, some things never change do they?) because one of your 36 64k dips was loose was not fun.
Re:Hot Product (Score:2)
Similar to what I used to call Apple Disease. The vibration from the Apple ][ power switch (the BRS) would eventually cause the socketed chips to walk out and gall the contact surfaces. The quick fix was to open the top and re-seat the chips with your thumb. I used to pull the chips, treat the pins with Tweek (now known as Stabilant [stabilant.com]), re-seat them and charge $25 for the job. Good spare chan
Re:Hot Product (Score:3, Informative)
Quite The Contrary (Score:2, Funny)
As I recall, Apple was the first to integrate SMALL 3.5" flops (on the Macintosh)
Don't call it a flop ... (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry, I need a minute. Have to run to the bathroom...something in my eye. Just thinking about it gets me all bleary-eyed.
Re:Don't call it a flop ... (Score:2)
Just joshing!
I
Larry Tesler was never CEO. (Score:5, Informative)
>where he led a dozen engineers (including future Apple CEO Larry Tesler)
Larry Tesler was never CEO of Apple. He was Chief Scientist and VP.
Kinda makes me wonder about the veracity of the rest of the piece...
Re:Larry Tesler was never CEO. (Score:3, Funny)
That's nothing... (Score:3, Funny)
Apple is a 2.0 or 3.0 company most of the time... (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, Apple screws up a lot, particularly in first versions of a new product. As the article says, the Lisa was a flop, but it led to the original Mac, which led to the real hit, the Mac II.
The Mac Portable was a terrible product--but it led to the Powerbook, which defined the laptop computer. The Cube was overpriced and didn't have a market, but it led to the Mini, which is kicking ass.
The iPod was a hit from the jump, but the Newton was dead from its announcement date (we knew it was in trouble when they started handing them out as employee awards).
A couple of comments.... (Score:3, Interesting)
If Apple had just priced the G4 Cube correctly it would have been a hit, because its desktop footprint is really not much bigger than the currently fashionable Mac Mini. And it would have allowed people to buy less-expensive monitors, keyboards and mouse pointers, too.
The iPod was a hit from the jump....
I have to disagree with that. It was only when the version for Windows that included USB 2.0 support came
Re:Apple is a 2.0 or 3.0 company most of the time. (Score:4, Informative)
loooooooooose (Score:5, Funny)
By April 1984, Apple had managed to sell only 65,000 units, loosing money on the model.
Geez, Slashdot's power to make people misspell words is so powerful that it's leaking into linked articles!
Re:loooooooooose (Score:2)
I told the sales team not to use Excel...
Here's a better list of flops... (Score:3, Informative)
More interesting question is - Why apple flopped . (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple had a sort of adolscent crisis when the compan y got to a stage when the hormones took over (this might look like a metaphor, but most companies have a childhood, youth and middle age like the people who run it). The business side started leaning on the creative side and sort of screwed each other. Apple had a bunch of cool people coding for them (I wish ... Amiga...). But the business was more concerned about sellability than the raw coolness of the app in mind (see Google right now, it's going through the same loss of innocence).
Here's my list of top apple flops :writer? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:writer? (Score:2)
Re:writer? (Score:2)
They're certainly not spending any money on competent copyediting.
I actually liked the LISA (Score:2)
Apple History (Score:2, Interesting)
I always found the history of Apple, Inc. and their technology fascinating. I'm 26, and the first computer I used at school was an Apple IIe. My first computer my parents bought me was a IIgs. That was a great machine in its day, if only it had a hard drive it would have essentially been a Mac since it had an early version of the Mac GUI. At that time, anyone who was anyone in BBS land wanted a PC though, so I switched and am still using x86 hardware today (I don't care to start an argument - terminal s
Apple IIGS? (Score:3, Informative)
Wasn't that [oldcomputers.net] a flop?
Re:Apple IIGS? (Score:5, Interesting)
That machine was the last of the Apple
That machine would have made Apple big, had they had not spent all their marketing efforts onto the Mac (whose hardware was inferior in many areas to the GS, but whose OS was superior).
Lovverly Lisa (Score:5, Interesting)
Not too well researched, like full of errors: (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not too well researched, like full of errors: (Score:3, Informative)
My company (DeskTop Softare Corp, out of business now) wrote software for the III and it failed because there were a large number of 100% out of the box failures. The hardware stunk. Who can we possibly blame other than Apple?
Re:Not too well researched, like full of errors: (Score:3, Informative)
That would make it difficult to explain why Apple recommended lifting the machine two inches and dropping it to reseat them . . . you can argue for a different cuase, but that was Apple's explanation back then . .
hawk
2 flops... (Score:2)
Why this is news?!?!!?! (Score:2)
Boycott Bad Stories! (Score:2)
Apple Giotto -- prototype tablet PC (Score:2, Interesting)
The list of PC/x86 Flops would fill pages (Score:2, Insightful)
Jobs, if anything, was focused and visionary. A few screwups are nothing compared to the IBM PC Jr, and assorted junk that arrived from loads of other vendors. If nothing, he's consistent and found religion when he jumped to NeXt. The Darwin kernel and other human-factor profiles, along with sheer beauty make Job's stuff like Sony's product lines used to be.
The list of other flops is miles long. Flops are good: they test engineers and the market place. Some items are ahead of their time, others behind, a
There is no shame in failing. (Score:2)
Learning from mistakes and not repeating them is the hard part.
Actual Sales Figures (Score:5, Funny)
It turns out according to the Apple sales database they sold exactly 65,535. :)
lisa a flop? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:LISA (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Landfilled LISAs (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Poor, poor article (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Poor, poor article (Score:2)
Welcome to the Blogosphere. Enjoy your stay!
(I kinda agree with you, but that doesn't stop me knowing you'll be modded Troll for speaking your mind, which is ironically what blogs do, but there you are.)
Re:Hmmmm (Score:2)
they are highly profitable and have a very solid market.
People who avoid apple for silly reasons like that are missing out on a great set of hardware and software, I dont buy hardware because of marketing
I buy my hardware based on quality and the software it runs.
I have an imac from 5 years ago that still runs soundly using ubuntu ppc (its actualy still ok for os x if i had wanted to run os x on it )
The main atractions for m
Re:Hmmmm (Score:4, Funny)
I have no more time to attempt to enlighten you. I'm going to Starbucks.
Other news stories tonight (Score:2)
Re:Cool Lisa (Score:2)
He formed Next where he was essentially able to create the LISA on the super powerful 68030 and 68040 processors.
The video that circulated the internet a few months back with Next's capabilities were mind blowing.
Only now is Jobs true insight being seen with the release of Tiger - analysts point that this is the "thing beyond that iPod" that will grow marketshare for Apple -
Re:Wrong 'graphics' (Score:2)