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Hardware IT

Athlon 64 SFF With PCI Express Reviewed 265

Posted by timothy from the respectable-power-per-cubic-inch dept.
EconolineCrush writes "The Tech Report has an in-depth review of Shuttle's new XPC SN25P. At several times the size of a Mac Mini, the SN25P is an entirely different breed of small form factor system; one that supports one 5.25" drive, three 3.5" drives, PCI Express x16 graphics cards and x1 peripherals, up to 2GB of DDR400 memory, and Socket 939 Athlon 64 processors. The system also bristles with USB, Firewire, and audio ports, including digital S/PDIF inputs and outputs, and even has an integrated memory card reader. Looks like a pretty good balance between footprint, portability, and expansion capacity."
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Athlon 64 SFF With PCI Express Reviewed More

Athlon 64 SFF With PCI Express Reviewed

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  • "New" form factor? (Score:3, Informative)

    by dmccarty ( 152630 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:15PM (#11751744)
    Once upon a time people called that a mini tower.

  • Mini ATX (Score:2, Interesting)

    by glitch0 ( 859137 )
    What makes this any different from mini-ATX?

    Looks very alike to me

    • Re:Mini ATX (Score:5, Interesting)

      by UniverseIsADoughnut ( 170909 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2005 @12:22AM (#11752472)
      This is much smaller then micro-ATX, and a complete deferent form factor then anything else.

      The reason shuttle is able to make the boxes like they do is not using a standard form-factor. The regular G sized shuttles are close to Flex-ATX, but not quite. This is a bit bigger. Then there is the BTX i Chassis which is really close to the BTX form factor but a good bit bigger then this machine.

      where the real difference comes with shuttles is the packaging. You will be very hard pressed to find a micro atx case that is anywhere near this small, and has a CD that isn't vertical mounted, and accepts Full height PCI/AGP cards. Shuttles mean you have no trade offs from normal ATX machines, but they are much smaller.

  • Obsession over boxes (Score:5, Funny)

    by [cx] ( 181186 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:17PM (#11751764)
    How can people care so much if their box is all snazzy and fancy, it's the hardware dammit, it's what's on the inside that counts...or atleast that's what I tell myself everytime i look in the mirror...

    excuse me, i think i have something in my eye..
  • I like how now every thing is in a little box, gamecubes, mac minis, the cube lan party rigs. I would be cool to make a lunchbox that looks like that.

  • "tool free drive rails" (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Glowing Fish ( 155236 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:20PM (#11751776) Homepage
    Does this mean sneaky little proprietary rails that keep things in by friction, but can never be exchanged with another system.

    I hate those things.

    The proper way a drive should be secured is with a Phillips screwdriver. It is not like a Phillips Screwdriver is some exotic tool that is hard to come by.

  • The Basic Joke (Score:3, Funny)

    by vjmurphy ( 190266 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:20PM (#11751777) Homepage
    Insert lame joke about said hardware not being able to handle a slashdotting, despite the fact that said hardware is not running the web site.

  • No dimensions? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:23PM (#11751790)
    I may be blind but I couldn't find the dimensions of this bare-bones unit anywhere in TFA. So then I went to www.shuttle.com, and I couldn't find this particular model anywhere. As the article states, it apparently is not for sale yet. Then I started looking at the specs sheets for the P-series models and couldn't find dimensions there either.

    It appears to be bigger than a breadbox to me, and with my total inability to find the dimensions (which are likely on the front page of the article) that description will have to do.

  • MirrorDot URL (Score:5, Informative)

    by scdeimos ( 632778 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:24PM (#11751798)
    Don't know why they don't mention this things in the article... MirrorDot [mirrordot.org]

  • Power supplies (Score:2, Insightful)

    by leathered ( 780018 )
    I small concern I would have is the size of the power supply, most Shuttles only come with a 250W PSU and there could be problems driving the latest PCIe gfx cards.

    On the other hand, power supply ratings are very subjective with many cheap ~500W PSUs having no greater capacity that a quality 300W unit.

  • Bristles? (Score:5, Funny)

    by snuf23 ( 182335 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:26PM (#11751820)
    Just what we need. PCs labeled as being "bristley".

    "I would have loved to buy that powerful Athlon 64, but the system bristled with ports, unlike the smooth surface of my legacy free Mac mini."

    • I wonder if I could install an OS to make me WinCE. That would go great with hardware that makes me Bristle.

    • "I would have loved to buy that powerful Athlon 64, but the system bristled with ports, unlike the smooth surface of my legacy free Mac mini."

      The important thing to note is that Longhorn is going to require signed drivers and that it will not support parallel, serial or PS2. All that extra hardware (that no matter at what cost you are still paying for) is going to be as useless as a floppy drive in Mac OS X.

      I refused to buy a boombox for quite a while because I saw no need to have to pay for a cassette

  • Beware of heat (Score:5, Informative)

    by salimma ( 115327 ) * on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:28PM (#11751835) Homepage Journal
    I have the previous-generation Shuttle AMD64 model - the SN95 - and I must say that even with two 3.5" drives, cooling them can be a problem.

    So even though it has 3 3.5" slots you'd probably be better off putting in at most two drives and investing in heat sinks for them.

    Without additional cooling, even with one hard drive I had to set the fan to 'medium', up from 'Smart fan' to avoid overheating within a few hours.

    • How about noise? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by lakeland ( 218447 )
      I've got a pegasos machine currently for my low end server behind my DSL line. It satisfies some of my requirements (fairly small, low power consumption) and it is fun to play with a different arch. However, it is too slow, too hot, and too loud.

      I guess I could replace it with a mac mini and then I'd only have the problem of it being too slow, but I've been thinking of fixing all the problems by replacing it with a 'low end' SFF A64 since they use less power when idle but have the grunt when necessary.

      • Re:How about noise? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by martinde ( 137088 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:11PM (#11752080) Homepage
        I have a Shuttle SN95G5. It's very cool and quiet. I've got a Winchester core Athlon 64 3200+, which is supposedly lower power than the older cores. All I know is the machine is fast, cool, and quiet. (Unlike the grandparent post, I have only one hard disk in this machine so I have not seen any cooling issues.)
      • At medium fan speed it is quite noisy (disregard the Ars Technica report that said otherwise - they left the fan speed at auto).. for a low-end server I'd recommend an ITX motherboard running a non-Intel, non-AMD solution .. or the Mac mini.

  • PCI-X Expansion Slot Only? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:29PM (#11751846)
    Why is PCI-66 (and beyond) being passed over? There are many high-end network interfaces, frame grabber boards, etc. that will not be available in PCI-X for some time. I just built a Shuttle box and had to go with an older, PCI-33 model for compatibility reasons.

    Why is the industry going with PCI-X, rather than PCI-Express or PCI-66 which are both speedy AND backwards compatitble?

    • Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only? (Score:5, Informative)

      by atrus ( 73476 ) <`atrus' `at' `atrustrivalie.org'> on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:38PM (#11751908) Homepage
      Note that PCI-X != PCIe. PCI-X is the 133MHz PCI derivative which is backwards compatible with 66mhz and 33mhz cards, whereas PCIe is the not backwards compatible serial link PCI. One PCIe slot/lane has a transfer rate of ~250MB/s (2x PCI). You can easily add mroe lanes to each slot. So with graphics, you have 16 PCIe lanes at 250MB/s each.
      • You're right, I got it backwards - this board has PCI-Express, which is incompatible with PCI.

        But my question is, why isn't the industry going with the backwards-compatible solution? Isn't PCI-X good enough, except perhaps for the video card?

        • I think it might be in part Intel's desire to be the 'bus master' (like all the buses before PCI were not Intel products, and intel heavily pushed PCI). I'm not sure where PCI derivatives such as PCI-X stand though.
        • Primarily PCI Express is a replacement for AGP, rather than PCI; it's primarily a video interface on the desktop.
          • it's primarily a video interface on the desktop. No. It *is* replacing AGP, but it isn't limited to that. PCI Express devices are being developed or are already being produced to support networking, mass storage, and so on. Pretty much anything you can buy a PCI card for today, you will be able to buy an Express card for now or in 1 to 2 years time. There's even a PCMCIA-style form factor using PCI Express, and a daughterboard form factor for use in laptops.
            • I know; I've developed boards using PCI Express switches. It is nice to use (routing 70-some signals for 64 bit PCI sucks); but right now, its deployment on the desktop has been limited to video.
      • Oh noes, it's EMS versus XMS all over again.

      • One PCIe slot/lane has a transfer rate of ~250MB/s (2x PCI). You can easily add mroe lanes to each slot. So with graphics, you have 16 PCIe lanes at 250MB/s each.

        That's interesting because IBM says PCI express runs at 200 MB/s [ibm.com]. There's also only 1,2,4,8 and 16x to the specification.

        I think I'm having Déjà Vu. I am reading that one of the great advantages of PCI express is its ability to talk to other cards without going through the CPU. Hmm, doesn't PCI have this now?

        • Fair enough. 250MB/s is not totally out though (from the same article) This encoding explains differences in the published spec speeds of 250 MBps (with the embedded clock overhead) and 200 MBps (data only, without the overhead)..

          No, I'm not saying you can count the clock as data. Just 250MB/s isn't wrong, since it is the actual signaling rate.

    • Re:PCI-X Expansion Slot Only? (Score:4, Informative)

      by bani ( 467531 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @10:59PM (#11752020)
      1) it already has integrated 1000bt, unless you want to go 10gbe there's no point.

      2) unless you're capturing HDTV resolutions, a firewire capture device will do fine. i'm also unaware of any PCI-66 framegrabber cards that even exist (nor any which would _need_ PCI-66 to function). hell, PCI-33 is even fine for HDTV capture. bonus: you can disconnect the firewire device when not in use, and save power. also saves a slot which can be used for other devices instead.

      PCI-66 is also more expensive to design boards for. PCI express is faster and simpler than PCI-66 and cheaper to design for. PCI express connector can also take much less board space, which is a major issue in SFF designs.

      when almost all of the devices you would want to use are already integrated onto the motherboard, backwards compat is less of an issue... when I upgraded to my amd64 motherboards I ended up ditching a lot of expansion cards (gigabit, serial ata, firewire), because everything was already integrated.

    • Because PCI Express is a superior technology (Score:5, Informative)

      by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:37PM (#11752223)
      I noticed your later post clarifing your confusiong PCI-X and Express.

      At any rate, there are a number problems with PCI-X:

      1) It's a parallel protocol. That means that all the traces for it need to be the same length to make it work properly. Makes motherboard design tricky.

      2) The connectors are HUGE. You have to make a quite physically large card to accomadate that, even if the electronics don't justify it. ESpically a problem in small cases.

      3) The electronics necessary to implement it are more expensive than PCIe.

      4) There's no real expansion path to it. There isn't any plans for how ot scale it in speed that wouldn't require a reworking and probably add more complexity.

      PCIe is real nice because in it's slowest implementation, 1x, it is still fast (about the same speed as PCI-66) but takes a very small slot with very few traces. Nice and cheap to implement, and easy to stick in small cases. However it scales real easily, you can whack on more lanes to a slot, and you can have multiple slots with lots of lanes. So on a low end board with integrated graphics you can have a couple 1x slots, on a workstation barod a 16x, a 14 and a number of 1xs and on a highernd server or visualtion board, multiple 16xs.

      Also since you can have more than one 16x slot, unlike with AGP which is single slot only, you can have multiple high power grapihcs accelerators in a system that supports it.

      Like with Serial ATA, it is a technology that's needed to keep scaling well and to simplify things. Yes, right now there's really no performance reason to go SATA over PATA, however there will be soon, and SATA should keep scaling. Plus the smaller, simpler connectors are a real boon in many applications.

      Also PCIe is compatible with PCI in the fact taht you can have PCI slots on a PCIe motherboard without any problems. So you get a PCIe board and you can still use your old cards, then you slowly replace them as technology progresses, and eventually ouy just don't need it anymore.

  • Hmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Traldan ( 861900 )
    Looks interesting. Good to see a greater Atholon 64 availability with PCI Express. I wish it had been as easily accessible when I bought my comp.

  • Yes, But... (Score:5, Funny)

    by John Hasler ( 414242 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:08PM (#11752064) Homepage
    ...how many serial ports does it have?

  • Is SFF worth it? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by UserChrisCanter4 ( 464072 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:35PM (#11752206)
    Note: excuse my references to the Lanboy. [antec.com]I'm not trying to whore for Antec; it's just that their product is the most readily recognizable example of the design I'm referencing.

    During the last two years of college, I got very into the LAN scene. All the guys I worked with were big on LAN gaming, and some people at my apartment complex were into it. Even my girlfriend had her LAN machine (in addition to her art major necessity Mac), which she decorated with Hello Kitty stencils on the requisite LAN computer window and dubbed "Halo Kitty."

    We mostly leaned toward aluminum cases for weight benefits coupled with smaller LCDs. Because a fair amount of us were PC repair techs, we'd always have that one slightly older machine that could still easily hang with the games we played. New people would show up, get hooked, and start wanting to build/buy something so that they could participate.

    A few people ended up with Shuttles or similar SFF cases. While fairly convenient in size, we consitently saw overheating issues and high noise levels. Shoehorning a good graphics card into these things (since LAN action is obviously a target market) sends heat levels through the roof, and the smaller size means only one fan. The need for a single fan means that fan must turn at very high speeds. This made for some excessive noise levels, especially for people who wanted to use these as their primary computer, and (logically) envisioned setting them atop their desk beside the monitor.

    So the question out of all of this is here: are these SFF designs worth it? I love the convenient size of the Mac Mini as much as the next guy, but (in addition to being much smaller than most SFF PCs) they target a totally different market. When I look at these squatty boxes and compare them to an Antec Lanboy or other similar aluminum chassis w/ handles, I start wondering.

    Isn't it just smarter to buy a lightweight mini-tower? With space for 3HDDs, isn't that what this thing really is, anyway? A Lanboy comes with a carry strap, weighs less than 20 lbs. loaded with an HDD and optical drive, and avoids the excessive heat and noise levels generated by the SFF design. While a Lanboy might be 2 or 2.5 times taller, it's also skinnier, so we're not talking about a huge gain there. On top of this, I get to choose my own internal components, whereas I was always put off of these because I'd end up having to use a shuttle mainboard.

    So SFF buyers, what draws you to these things?

    • Re:Is SFF worth it? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Facekhan ( 445017 )
      I built a shuttle SK43G (athlon XP) for my mom in July and it is a lot quieter than my mid-tower desktop and easily 20 times quieter than a powerful laptop. This despite that my midtower sits under the desk on carpet and her shuttle sits on her desk on glass. Except when it first turns on its almost silent. There is no AGP card in there though. Just 2 hard drives and cd burner.
    • just a thought .... maybe not everyone is a gamer. Maybe they don't want their desk taken over by a big, bulky box. ;)

    • Re:Is SFF worth it? (Score:3, Informative)

      by digitac ( 24581 )
      I've been LANing for years, my first LAN box was an overclocked Celeron 300 (running at 450!) in a full tower. It had 12 fans in it and would stay cool in any environment.

      Then I got tired of lugging it around. I bought a Lian-Li mid-tower aluminum case and was in heaven. It ran cool with fewer fans and was light!

      Then I got tired of lugging it around. I bought a Shuttle SN41G2, dropped an MSI Geforce 4200 in it. It ran like a dream. I didn't over clock it so I didn't have any heat issues (Athlon 2600+).

      Th

    • So SFF buyers, what draws you to these things?

      I'm not an SFF buyer yet, but I'm certainly thinking about it. I want to build a media PC to go in my family room, and I need something that will fit in the cabinets there. I have plenty of horizontal space, but only about 14" of vertical space. I could get a mini tower and lay it on its side, but I'd like the DVD-ROM drive to be usable.

      So, obviously, SFF is very attractive to me. The Mac mini would be ideal except for its lack of an SPDIF output. I do

  • In other news (Score:5, Funny)

    by vagabond_gr ( 762469 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:37PM (#11752221)
    Oxford announced the addition of the word "macmini" to their dictionary [oed.com] which appears to be a unit to measure size and coolness at the same time. Typical examples of its usage are:

    - Cool, my new Mac Mini is exactly one macmini
    - Duh, my iPod is less than half a macmini
    - Who the hell would buy a 10 macminis Shuttle XPC SN25P
    - Add a full macmini to your p****, 100% safe!
    • To have more macmini should be to have a better coolness factor at a smaller size.

      To have achieved one or more macmini should be the goal.

      Otherwise, it is a negative term. That is, more macmini is bad, less is better.

      Sex is good because more is better.
      Chocolate is good because more is better.
      Macmini is bad because more is worse?

      The word macmini is a fraction of a macmini.

  • Sudhian (not \,'ed) Review (Score:5, Informative)

    by TheBashar ( 13543 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2005 @11:37PM (#11752222)
    You can find Sudhian's thorough review of the SN25P at the following link: http://www.sudhian.com.nyud.net:8090/showdocs.cfm? aid=653 [nyud.net]

    For those of you looking for dimensions, the review lists them as: 325mm x 210mm x 220mm. The article also shows a picture of it next to the smaller original G series case.

  • At several times the size of a Mac Mini, the SN25P is an entirely different breed of small form factor system;

    If it's entirely different, then why even mention the Mac Mini? They don't compare on size, market, utility, platform, expandability, speed, heat, appearance, and certainly not on price.

  • Here's a good barebone for y'all (Score:3, Interesting)

    by melted ( 227442 ) on Wednesday February 23, 2005 @02:46AM (#11753138) Homepage
    http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?desc ription=56-110-030&DEPA=0

    Asus Terminator C3 - $115. VIA C3 processor, running at 800MHz. Comes with processor, floppy and CD-ROM. Put in your old PC2100 RAM, a couple SATA hard drives, install your favorite Linux/*BSD distro, and you have a perfect home server. It even has a PCI slot, FireWire, USB2 and TV OUT.
  • The reviewer could have at least booted the latest Linux kernel determine how much of the system is or isn't supported.

    I found most of the review to be a waste of time because of this oversight.

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