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Hardware Hacking Desktops (Apple) Hardware

Mac mini to PC Hack 692

DiZASTiX writes "Kevin Rose, the ever so popular host of G4/TechTV's The Screen Savers, has managed to fit a PC inside the Mac mini. 'I've seen a ton of articles around the web lately comparing the Mac mini to the near full size desktop PC. What they fail to compare is the amount of computing power per square inch you get with the Mini. So, I decided to take it upon myself to create the fastest PC possible with the size constraints of the Mini's small form factor.' The article covers most everything he did and includes pictures."
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Mac mini to PC Hack

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  • MirrorDot link (Score:1, Informative)

    by HellSpam ( 692342 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:11PM (#11523530)
    http://mirrordot.org/stories/6404fabef80b3d41d5894 e6b0d250d83/index.html The server is already pretty slow.
  • Re:MirrorDot link (Score:4, Informative)

    by hostyle ( 773991 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:20PM (#11523607)
    how hard was an actual non-mangled clickable link? [mirrordot.org]. Kind of a pity mirrordot is /.ed too
  • Re:MirrorDot link (Score:3, Informative)

    by Dun Malg ( 230075 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:21PM (#11523621) Homepage
    http://mirrordot.org/stories/6404fabef80b3d41d5894 e6b0d250d83/index.html The server is already pretty slow.

    That's not a link, that's a URL. this [mirrordot.org] is a link.

  • faster?!? (Score:5, Informative)

    by ecloud ( 3022 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:23PM (#11523640) Homepage Journal
    No way is a 1 GHz Via Nehemiah going to be faster than a 1.25 GHz G4. The mini is already one of the fastest PCs (personal computer, this includes macs by the way) that has been fit into such a small space.

    I have an Epia system; to me it feels pretty anemic for its clock speed in comparison to say a PII or better.
  • So.. (Score:5, Informative)

    by beelsebob ( 529313 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:24PM (#11523646)
    It's lacking a CD drive, it's probably gonna overheat because he trimmed down the heat sync provided and it's a slower CPU... I say that the phrase we're all looking for is:

    macMiniScore++;
  • Re:Need a review (Score:5, Informative)

    by kc8apf ( 89233 ) <kc8apf@kc8ap f . n et> on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:26PM (#11523668) Homepage
    The Espresso does not even seem to come close to what a Mac mini offers performance wise. The specs you link to show that it has a max processor speed of 500Mhz. The Mac mini goes up to 1.4Ghz. They say that a celeron can go higher, but not 900Mhz higher.

    The video card is also a 4MB card. The Mac mini has a ATI Radeon 9200 with 32MB of RAM. Again, a huge difference.

    While the Espresso is in the right ballgame for size, weight, etc, performance is not even close.
  • No CD/DVD (Score:3, Informative)

    by jonbrewer ( 11894 ) * on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:35PM (#11523743) Homepage
    Due to size restrictions, fitting a CD-ROM drive in the mini enclosure would be impossible with this motherboard.

    I'd say his project failed. The whole idea of such a device is to not have all sorts of other bricks (like external media) plugged in. Esp if it is to sit next to the nice 36" LCD TV (of course using DVI connector) and act as a media box.
  • by beelsebob ( 529313 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:40PM (#11523781)
    Unfortunately the cappuchino PC is woefully underpowered at a mere 500Mhz and with onboard 4MB graphics rather than a Radeon 9200 with 32MB.

    But, yes, you're right - the point of the mini is to get a nice reasonably powerful box that takes up no space, costs very little and runs OS X.

  • by Judogi ( 214998 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:54PM (#11523883)
    Logic - 5.82"(W) x 10.0"(D) x 2.79"(H)
    Mini - 6.5" (W) x 6.5"(D) x 2.0" (H)

    Been there, done that, spent less? Don't think so...

    The mini is smaller.
    The mini is more than likely less noisy.
    The mini comes standard with certain things you might need in a computer, such as:
    - hard drive
    - cd rom
    - processor
    - memory
    - operating system

    The base price of the Sumicom PC is cheaper, but I doubt you'd actually build that PC for less than the price of the mini (especially if you actually paid for Windows *gasp*; Linux excluded).

    Not to mention the Logic device is just plain fugly.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @07:55PM (#11523888)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by beelsebob ( 529313 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:02PM (#11523941)
    Yes, unfortunately they're all bigger than the mac mini and incomplete. When you add all the other bits you'll need (a hard drive for example) they're way more expensive.
  • Re:Celeron != G4 (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:10PM (#11523986)
  • by cpt kangarooski ( 3773 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:12PM (#11523999) Homepage
    The original name of the Macintosh was Macintosh. It stemmed from a project (called Annie) to create a cheap gaming console, but they weren't related except that the person assigned to Annie countered with the proposal for Macintosh.

    The Lisa was a completely seperate thing, but a lot of ideas did get shared between the two groups.
  • Target audience (Score:4, Informative)

    by chia_monkey ( 593501 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:32PM (#11524170) Journal
    "Just who, other than Mac cultists and SFF geeks, is going to buy a Mac Mini?"

    Good question, and thanks to a disaster with my PowerBook Saturday, I have my own input. Had you asked that earlier, I would have said the target audience was rather vague...perhaps people that wanted to test out the Mac, the Mac cultists, and a handfull of switchers. It's the price point that erases all the "well the Mac is too expensive" excuse that many people have.

    After a nasty power issue with the laptop, I've had to take it in for repairs. Aw criminy...what to do? Can't really afford a new G5 or anything...ayeee! But wait...only $499 for the Mac Mini? That's a perfect solution. I can just use that temporarily, it's got a decent processor, is small...yeah...that's the ticket. And then I can use it as a database server when I get my PowerBook. Totally beats buying a G5 (even though I want one) or something used off of eBay.
  • Re:faster?!? (Score:4, Informative)

    by colmore ( 56499 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:34PM (#11524182) Journal
    Have you *seen* a Mac Mini? The thing is small. Sit it on the palm of your hand, you'll have trouble believing it. You really need to be in Sony Picturebook territory to compare.
  • Re:Need a review (Score:4, Informative)

    by UniverseIsADoughnut ( 170909 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:47PM (#11524300)
    and SFFs like shuttles are a good bit bigger then a mini and a lot more expandable/capable.

    The super small boxes that are via mini itx based are not selling like hot cakes. When you get to that size you are paying more for smaller less standard components and not equal performace. Plus there has been no large push by any mini itx system makers. Shuttles have been doing great cause the company has been pushing them very well, and they are something people want.

    The mac mini will sell good though, it's cheap for what you get and has proper marketing behind it. And it runs OSX, which will be a huge bonus for a long time. Most people run windows, and if they are looking for something different it's going to be OSX cause it's just as easy for them, and plenty common and so forth. The selling point to macs is the OS not so much the hardware though the hardware helps.
  • Re:Celeron != G4 (Score:3, Informative)

    by drsmithy ( 35869 ) <drsmithy@ g m ail.com> on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:50PM (#11524322)
    The CISC-based Intel/AMD processors are not as efficient at getting work done as the RISC-based PowerPC processors.

    x86 CPUs haven't been CISC since the mid 90s.

    I like the analogy of a person physically moving 1,000 boxes from one side of the house to the other. The CISC person might be able to get from one side to other (and back) in 2 seconds, but each time he does he can only carry a single box with him, so it would take 2,000 seconds to move all boxes. Whereas the RISC person might take 5 seconds to make the same round-trip distance, but each time he can carry 20 boxes, so it takes a total of 250 seconds (5 seconds * 1000 boxes / 20 boxes-per-trip).

    Your analogy is arse-about-face. The principle of RISC is to have small, basic operations and execute lots of them quickly. The principle of CISC is to have large, complex operations and get more work done from each one. In other words, CISC is the architecture that can carry 20 boxes at once and RISC is the architecture that can move 1 box twenty times in the same time period.

    The real irony here is that most of the flagship processors for an architecture ostensibly designed for pumping up clockspeeds (RISC) don't actually have particularly high clock speeds.

  • Re:Celeron != G4 (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:53PM (#11524351)
    G4s are slower than just about every desktop/server chip today.

    I'm sorry but you're wrong. I have 2 computers:

    1: Mac G4 1.33 GHz, 512 MB PC2700 RAM
    2: AMD Athlon 3000+ (2.1 GHz), 1 GB PC3200 RAM

    And both of them do raw MPEG-2 to Divx/XviD encoding at nearly the same rate. They also rip audio CDs to MP3s at nearly the same rate.

    The G4 is a decent chip. The G5 is better however, because of its addressing and memory management (the two areas PC chips were still "winning" in). The only negative is the total GHz for PPC CPUs available is lower.
  • Re:Need a review (Score:3, Informative)

    by drsmithy ( 35869 ) <drsmithy@ g m ail.com> on Sunday January 30, 2005 @08:58PM (#11524400)
    If you want something to compare to the G4, how about a 1.5GHz Pentium M at the very least?

    A Pentium M is at *least* as fast as a G4 clock-for-clock, and given the much higher bus speed and memory bandwidth, will spank it in general-purpose performance.

  • by xtermin8 ( 719661 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @09:16PM (#11524532)
    The mini comes with an S-Video/composite adapter, a TV-out adapter for a little extra, just like their laptops.
  • by tepples ( 727027 ) <tepples@nospAm.gmail.com> on Sunday January 30, 2005 @09:39PM (#11524695) Homepage Journal

    They also rip audio CDs to MP3s at nearly the same rate.

    I/O bound! I/O bound! No Compact Disc Digital Audio ripper will go much past 48x max (really about 36x over the entire surface of the disc) because a drive that spins the CD much faster than that will break it.

    The only negative is the total GHz for PPC CPUs available is lower.

    Which can translate to lower current drain and thus a lower electric bill.

  • by cpt kangarooski ( 3773 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @10:33PM (#11525042) Homepage
    First, the earlier poster said that the original name of the Macintosh was the Lisa, which is just wrong.

    Second, it would have been McIntosh, but Jef Raskin changed the spelling to avoid a trademark issue with the McIntosh stereo people. It didn't work (because how words sound is more important than how they're spelled for trademark purposes), and they had to come to an agreement.
  • by Halo5 ( 63934 ) on Sunday January 30, 2005 @11:53PM (#11525499) Homepage
    I sold my Mini ITX (1Ghz Nehemiah) setup on eBay so that I could purchase my Mini Mac without losing any money. After having used both, I can state this difinitively: In no way does the Nehemiah come close to coming close to being as fast as the G4.

    Never mind the media encoding/decoding capabilities of the G4. It doesn't even come close in regular desktop use. Not even with Linux installed. To even do half what the G4 can do encoding/decoding wise, you'd have to add a PVR card (which won't fit in that case).

    If the guy is doing this to build the "fastest PC possible with the size constraints of the Mini's small form factor," he should have left the G4 in there (unless PC=Intel/AMD in this case).

    I'm all for hardware hacking, but I hate to see a perfectly good machine go to waste. I hope at least that he retrofitted in a non-destructive way so that he can put the original machine back together again. Some people just have too much money... :)

    BTW, If I was a VIA executive, there's no way that I would loan out a Nehemiah for review so that it could be pitted against the G4. Nothin' but bad news there. Somebody outta get fired over that one!
  • Re:faster?!? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Zoop ( 59907 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:08AM (#11525792)
    I think there are scores of laptops out there that would spank it.

    I dunno. I just saw the thing in person today for the first time. It's small, and its internal space would be about the same as a small notebook (not a subnotebook, as they usually rely on external CD-ROMs). And the smaller notebooks have not been speed demons, even in raw MHz.

    Certainly none of the desktop-replacement Wintel laptops I've seen have that little volume--they're gargantuan. In fact, the only thing that would equal it is, well, a Mac laptop.

    There may exist a faster laptop out there that comes with all the stuff the Mac Mini does but faster, but they're hardly ubiquitous.
  • by MNJavaGuy ( 619805 ) <.pond0019. .at. .umn.edu.> on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:37AM (#11525958)
    Xerox had little to complain about there. They let Apple study the Alto and it's GUI as they didn't feel that they had a product there that they could really do much with. They invested $1mil in Apple after that and received about a 1700% return on that. Probably more than they expected to get out of the Alto at the time. So I would hardly call it an outright theft.
  • Re:Need a review (Score:4, Informative)

    by Dr. Sigmund Freud ( 759331 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @01:52AM (#11526017)
    Tiger's core video will require 64mb to operate but Apple's releasing systems with a paltry 32mb of vram.
    Just a clarification. Some of the new eye-candy needs 64 Mb VRAM to work (Droplet works with 32Mb, Burn and Flash don't; and this is on Panther 10.3.7)

    Tiger will need 64MB VRAM for CI/CV to be crunched in the GPU. However, if the GPU does not have the requisite memory/power, Tiger will be smart enough to direct the CI/CV crunching to be done by the CPU (unlike Panther, which just sends the eye-candy to the GPU, regardless of whether or not the GPU can do it).

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @05:58AM (#11526834)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Comment removed (Score:2, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @08:15AM (#11527180)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Gilmoure ( 18428 ) on Monday January 31, 2005 @03:54PM (#11531301) Journal
    'Macintosh' as a name came about due to Jef Raskin [vwh.net]. He liked the apples but didn't want to conflict with McIntosh stereo equipment.

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