Mac mini All About Movies?

bikerguy99 writes "Robert X. Cringely, who had a good nose for the Mac mini from the very beginning, has published another bit of his thoughts on PBS. This time he speculates that Mac mini is all about movies - his thoughts on the subject are quite logical and provide intriguing insights into Apple's interest in producing a cheap headless Mac in the first place."

Interesting Bio

[enoraM]

There's an interesting Bio of Robert X. Cringely on the conferencing page of the Broadcast Engineering Conference 2003. http://www.chiariglione.org/leonardo/conferences/p rograms/nab2003.htm [chiariglione.org] .
He seems to be at least somewhat close to Apple, HDTV and MPEG :-) and I just decided to buy this little thingy.

Re:they don't market it for the movies.

[Golias]

Let me give you an idea of how quiet this little sucker is...

Most of the time when it's in operation, the fan does not appear to run at all, meaning it's as silent as a laptop.

By way of comparison, the eMac has a big, slow-turning fan (about 4" wide) in order to ensure fairly quiet operation. It's quieter than some of the amps in my music studio... When the fan on the mini does engage, it's actually somehow quieter than the massive fan on the eMac.

The loudest component on the whole darn thing is the DVD drive, which is far from the loudest drive I've heard, but still about what you would expect from a slot-loading computer drive.

Re:What?

[the pickle]

In addition, I do believe that you can no longer download a stand-along quicktime from apple, that it only exists as part of the current release of itunes.

Took about three seconds on Apple's site to shoot a big hole in THAT theory:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/ [apple.com]

QuickTime 6.5.2 download, or standalone installer. Take your pick.

p

Here's the 5.1 part

[SuperKendall]

Just look at the Accessories [apple.com] page, for the M-Audio-Transit [m-audio.com] AC3/DTS TOSlink adaptor.

And, it's also an input!

I was confused by that exclusion as well. But I really think they were just trying to make the box as cheaply as possible and realized most users would not need 5.1, so they could let it be a separate device.

Re:Will not be able to record HDTV

[NotoriousQ]

HDTV encoding is done at the source. If you have an HDTV tuner then what you get is the raw MPEG-2 stream that the station sends -- no need to encode. The camcorders do their own encoding right before they write down the stream, otherwise there would just be no space.

So you do not need a faster processor, just a bus and HD fast enough to get the stream. Playback of HDTV on the other hand may take some juice, but should be easily handled by most modern processors including the mini.

Re:Apple need no R&D

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't open the box without voiding the warranty.

Stop spreading FUD. It's already been documented that you can open the box without hurting the warranty. You don't even have to fuck around with a bunch of little tiny screws like you do with a typical homebrew shitbox. Just a simple putty knife slid into the side pushes the clips back, and it pops right open.

Re:Will not be able to record HDTV

[Gob Blesh It]

I wonder if you know that MHz means jack shit, especially when comparing across architectures as different as x86 and PowerPC. How can you hang out around Slashdot and not know about the megahertz myth [hardwareanalysis.com]? It's practically gospel. It also happens to be true.

However, I agree that the Mac mini would find it difficult to encode HD video in anything approaching realtime, not least because of its 4200 RPM laptop hard drive.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Probably more compressed though

[SuperKendall]

I imagine that buying movies online you'd be able to buy more highly compressed versions using that new Pixlet [apple.com] (see sidebar in link) codec, just like you can buy compressed AAC files from the store instead of full uncomressed CDs. Here's what Apple has to say about Pixlet:

Pixlet is the first studio-grade codec for filmmakers. Pixlet provides 20-25:1 compression, allowing a 75MB/sec series of frames to be delivered in a 3MB/sec movie, similar to DV data rates. Or a series of frames that are over 6GB in size can be contained within a 250MB movie. Pixlet lets high-end digital film frames play in real time with any 1GHz G4 or faster Panther Mac, without investing in costly, proprietary hardware.

Yes, it's heavy on the marketing. But one interesting thing to note (apart from the estimate of 6GB going to 250MB) is that it's targeted as - a 1GHz G4! That processor performance target is much more interesting now. And it is meant explicitly for movies.

Corrections

[SuperKendall]

1) I think it's premature to call out lack of support for blu-ray when there are hardly any players anywhere yet! I think Apple did announce support in Tiger. Already the Superdrive is BTO, probably a blu-ray drive could be added later as needed and become another BTO option.

2) There is IR support, Keyspan USB remote which is an IR remote with a USB/IR receiver. Works by default with iTunes and the movie player. Is linked to from Mac mini Accessories page in Apple store.

3) Check out the specs for Pixlet [apple.com] which lets you play back "movie quality frames" on a 1GHz G4. But really the video card in the mini is powerful enough to do the job for HDTV, you just need players than make use of it.

4) Could use S-Video, though most real video people would cringe. I agree that is the major stickling point, I am OK as I have a projector but I have also heard of problems connecting computers to HDTV sets with DVi inputs. Perhaps Tiger will help in this regard.

I think it's very usable now, but I tend to agree they may well release an updated version later with a little more bundling (like 5.1 built in instead of requiring a seperate adaptor).

Sorry I didn't include more links to things but I've already done a bunch of responses, check those for more links.

Re:they don't market it for the movies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you seen that one dude's sig?

It's a pyramid scheme, not a sales scheme!

Think Different... Think Ponzi!

Get a Cappuccino Mini PC, its $478 and has TV-out

[TobyIRC]

Get that Cappuccino [cappuccinopc.com], the new system is $455 (BYO HD) and the refurb is $379 (BYO HD). If you want the refurb with 20GB 2.5" Ultra DMA 33/66 4200RPM Hard Drive, it's $478. Both these prices include a "dos system", meaning "Install your own OS".

And stop duping comments [slashdot.org] (thanks typhoonius [slashdot.org]).

Re:PC competition for the Mini-MAC?

[10Ghz]

A DIY shuttle-like PC would crush the mac mini in ever respect.

In some aspects perhaps. But on the other hand:

- The Shuttle would propably be noisier
- It would consume more space
- It doesn't look as good (matter of taste though)
- You can't run OS X on it
- With similar specs it would propably cost the same or more than the Mini

But if it REALLY must be mini, you can probably find a suitable mini-itx system somewhere. Just google for it.

Those would be of similar size and they would be as silent as the Mini is. OTOH:

- Their performance sucks (VIA solutions) or
- They are really expensive (Pentium-M solutions)

Via solution would give you more or less similar price as the Mini (although you might have to resort to crappier case) but with sucky performance. Pentium-M would give you better performance (by a narrow margin) but it would cost alot more.

Re:Will not be able to record HDTV

[10Ghz]

2.4GHz eh? So it doesn't matter if it's 2.4GHz Celeron, 2.4Ghz Athlon64 or 2.4GHz 8088?

Seriously, staring that the MHz is completely pointless. You simply can't compare different CPU-families based on their clock-speed. P4 clocks alot higher than Athlon64 does, yet Athlon 64 mops the floor with the P4. How can that be? Or do you suggest that 2.4GHz Celeron is faster than my 2.2GHz Athlon64?

Re:May be not for movies

[MojoStan]

First, an average movie would be about 1-2 GB if compressed really well.

I think it would be even worse (bigger) than that. According to Apple's H.264 web page [apple.com]:

H.264 can create great-looking 3G mobile content at 50-160 Kbps, excellent Standard Definition (SD) video at 800-1500 Kbps, beautiful

HD video (1280x720, 24p) at 5-7 Mbps and full HD video (1920x1080, 24p) at 7-9 Mbps.

So at the lowest HD bitrate for 720p (5 Mbps), 2 hours of video would be about 4.5 GB. I think 6 CD's worth of data is more than people want to download for a movie. One-ninth of a 40GB hard drive is a lot of space for one movie.

Also, I cannot find clear system requirements for playing back HD H.264 video (especially for 720p), but I believe it's a heck of a lot more than the Mac mini's G4 processor. 1080p seems to require a dual G5.

Apple's H.265 page also says:

Full HD H.264/AVC video plays back on today's desktop computers. With a Cinema HD Display and a dual-processor Power Mac G5, the home office becomes home theatre.

Apple's H.264 FAQ [apple.com] says:

Does H.264 require special hardware?

While H.264 is a computationally advanced codec, it runs on today's shipping computers with no additional hardware required. For example, a full HD movie (1920x1080, 8 Mbps, 24 fps) encoded with H.264 plays back beautifully on a dual Power Mac G5.

Re:Interesting Bio

[BobPaul]

He never finished graduate school.

He has his masters degree (according to your link). Last time I checked that wasn't an undergrad degree.

But you're right to call him a sham. I still find him interesting and insightful, non-the-less. He's way better than Anchor Desk on ZDNet...

Re:Corrections

[MojoStan]

3) Check out the specs for Pixlet which lets you play back "movie quality frames" on a 1GHz G4.

Pixlet is a very high-bitrate codec that content creators are supposed to use to preview their video. According to Apple's H.264 FAQ [apple.com], a 1GHz G4 is needed to play "high-end digital film frames at 960x540 (at about 20 Mbps)." For those not used to doing the math, that's about 18GB for a 2-hour movie. An HD 1080p movie is twice as large and requires a dual 2.0GHz G5, but this doesn't matter because Pixlet is for content creation, not distributing HD video. H.264 is the codec for distributing HD video and will be included in Quicktime 7.

But really the video card in the mini is powerful enough to do the job for HDTV, you just need players than make use of it.

The Radeon 9200 [ati.com] is not even close to being powerful enough for HD. It does not have a VPU. Even the 9800 isn't powerful enough. Only the Radeons based on the X800 core [ati.com] have the technology (VIDEOSHADER HD [ati.com]) for playing back HD.

I'd sure like to know the real system requirements (CPU and/or GPU) to play back H.264 video at 1280x720 and 1920x1080. I can't find them at Apple's site or with Google.

Here's the Pixlet info from the FAQ:

How does H.264 compare with Pixlet?

H.264 and Pixlet are designed for different uses.

Pixlet is focused on workflow, designed for digital filmmakers, animators and effects artists to easily review high-resolution image sequences on a standard PowerMac or PowerBook. Pixlet plays every frame of a sequence without frame-to-frame dependencies so that a media professional can scrutinize every detail of a sequence. Pixlet enables high-end digital film frames at 960x540 (at about 20 Mbps) to play in real time with a 1GHz G4 or faster Macintosh, while 1920x1080 frames (at about 40 Mbps) will play in real time on a dual 2GHz G5 or faster. This capability eliminates the need to invest in costly, proprietary hardware for the professional review process.

H.264 is a delivery codec, optimized for high quality and efficiency. It leverages data that does not change between frames for more efficient compression. While Pixlet may require about 40 Mbps for 1920x1080 content, H.264 delivers 1920x1080 content at about 8 Mbps. This efficiency in H.264 enables delivery to and playback on a wide range of devices, from mobile phones to computers to HDTV and beyond.

Re:Can you just plug any USB audio card?

[Sarin]

yeah they actually work most of the time. especially the high end audio cards you pointed out. Even the pci rme hammerfall pc cards work in the mac, just be change one jumper.

Re:I don't think so ...

[Yaztromo]

I generally agree that Apple isn't going to be targeting the Mac mini at home video playback for the masses (at least not anytime soon), but I do have to correct a few things in your post none-the-less:

2. there is no IR/remote support on the mac mini, so no remote control. this is kind of a big and small deal at the same time. it would not have cost much for them to add support for this, yet it is a feature essential to media centers.

But the Mac mini does have a Bluetooth option, and Bluetooth is arguably a much better technology than IR is for a remote control solution (as you don't have to point the remote at the device to use it). There are a number of different Bluetooth remote solutions out there (including Sailing Clicker, which allows you to use a Bluetooth-enabled cell phone as a remote control on a Bluetooth enabled Mac). IR is so last century. Get in the now! :)

the current mac mini models are simply not powerful enough to decode HD video compressed with modern MPEG-4, WMA9-level codecs.

While I agree with this statement, I doubt if this is the biggest barrier to providing HD content. A much bigger barrier is available bandwidth to transfer HD content over the Internet. Apple doesn't even have a SD download service -- I'd think that if they were to offer an "iMVS", they'd start with SD content, and work their way up.

One thing I think some people may not be considering, however, is that while movies may not be the ideal media for a hypothetical "iMVS" service, SD TV shows are a completely different matter. Due to their relativive lengths (20 - 40 minutes in North American once you remove all the commercials) and the low relative definition, an "iTV" service is quite possible for a device like the Mac mini.

Yaz.

s/Pixlet/h.264

[System.out.println()]

Pixlet is lossless, and the file sizes show it. It's meant for clips to be stored on the backend, as opposed to the delivery to consumers.

No, what Apple will deliver the content in is h.264, an open standard the allows HD at the same quality and the same bitrate as current codecs with normal-def.

Re:Mini's not for Movies

[n8_f]

Sorry, the hard disk concerns are crap. The 4200 RPM drives Apple is using can sustain aroun 15 MB per second. In comparison, HDTV has a maximum data rate of 2.4MBps (19.2Mbps) and Blu-ray has a maximum data rate of 4.5MBps (36Mbps). The hard drives won't be a problem.

I've never had music skip on my iPod mini and the issue wouldn't be the speed of the hard drive, which on any iPod is at least 3MB per second (do you have any MP3s encoded at 3145728-bit? Mine generally max out at 320). Instead, it would be some heavy jostling preventing reads from the HD while either running out the RAM cache or skipping to new songs not in the RAM cache (which doesn't happen to me even when I go jogging), or possibly a decoding error (although far more likely an encoding error).

Re:Not what I was saying

[steve_bryan]

"Elgato had these devices out long before the mini, I think they just stumbled into a really successful market if they play the cards right."

Since I don't know this first hand, take it with a grain or two of salt. I read a report from the expo that Elgato plans to shut down production of the EyeTV 500 some time this spring. This is due to the dung infested legacy of retiring FCC chairman Michael Powell and his infernal Broadcast Flag. Since there is no practical way to implement it in a computer device, Elgato faces the prospect of selling an illegal device when the BF regulation goes into effect this summer. Rather than fight that battle it seems that Elgato will simply discontinue selling its HDTV device.

So the practical advice seems to be that you need to buy them before the feds make it illegal to sell them. The EFF has brought a lawsuit challenging the authority of the FCC to regulate the design of computer devices but who knows how soon that will provide a result or if it will be a favorable result.

No HD MPEG-2 decode with G4

[benwaggoner]

Well, there may be room for heroic optimization yet, but there aren't any G4 machines that can decode 1080i MPEG-2 in real-time. Not a problem on my dual G5, certainly.

Maybe they're limited by the limited FSB on the G4?