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Hardware Businesses Apple

Think Secret Predicts Sub-$500 Headless Mac 922

eadint writes "I have just read an article posted on Think Secret that discusses a confirmed $499 Apple box sans monitor. According to the article, this has been under development for almost one year and may be available towards the end of 2005Q1. The system is rumored to be based on a G4 with 256MB of RAM , 40-80GB HD with a combo drive (sorry, no SuperDrive). Although Apple has stated in the past that they have no motivation to compete in the sub-$600 PC market, this system was based on polls showing that more people would buy it after initial exposure to the iPod." "Confirmed" seems a strong word, but I hope this is more than wishful thinking.
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Think Secret Predicts Sub-$500 Headless Mac

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  • by Brento ( 26177 ) * <brento.brentozar@com> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:05AM (#11208044) Homepage
    I've never bought an Apple computer because the prices are too high to be an impulse purchase. At $500, though, I would pick one up along with a $50 keyboard/monitor switch and start playing around with it.

    Plus, at $500, geeks can afford to buy it and find out if it's easy to get their work done on it. The easier it is to switch my day-to-day work over gradually to an Apple, the more likely I'd be to do it. I'm sure I'll have a couple/few apps that I have to run on Windows, but if you put them both on my desk and let me toy with both, I bet I'd be more likely to run my MS-only stuff on a virtual machine.

    Could I get a $500 used Mac with a CRT monitor? Sure, but who wants that big bulky thing around? Instead, give me something I can use with a USB KVM switch, and then I can explore it on my own pace.
  • Great! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zo0ok ( 209803 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:09AM (#11208066) Homepage
    I have asked for such a Mac for years... since they discontinued the cube...

    I think it'd be a great decision... lets see how much it canablizes on Power Macs though.
  • by mobiux ( 118006 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:10AM (#11208071)
    I think i would pick one up if I could run the same software as any other macs can run.

    I would still keep my PC's, but I would love access to FCP and Motion.
  • Interesting... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by M3rk1n_Muffl3y ( 833866 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:11AM (#11208078)
    It's all nice and well, but i doubt it will convince many PC users to switch. Mainly because, apart from the hardware costs, you have to keep in mind the costs of new software and also the implementation costs of learning to use the new hardware. I am sure its not that difficult if you can get along with Windows, but it still takes time away from revenue generating work. Still it's a step in the right direction for Apple, let's hope they can eat a bit more into the Windows "monopoly".
  • by jacobcaz ( 91509 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:11AM (#11208079) Homepage
    I would buy one to put on my desk at work to prove they would interact with our network. Everyone gives me an odd stare when I recommend they pickup a Mac laptop for their personal work.

    Face it, geeks know the power of OSX but Apple hasn't done a great job of selling why a Mac today is differnet from the Macs of yesteryear. People either have ancidotal stories of how Macs don't play nice with Windows (which was never really true) or they have experiences with Mac-snobs or anti-Mac-snobs that have put them off even giving it a chance.

    I recommended we look at replacing some of our desktop machines with eMacs or iMacs as a trial last year and senior management looked at me like I was nuts. "But...But...it's not a Dell! And it Doesn't-Run-Windows(tm)! How will anyone get any work done?"

    It's harder to convince senior management to put out $20,000 for a ten box trial, but $5000 is much more palatable

    So go Apple! Build your boxes; they'll sell like hotcakes (especially if you make a $700 headless mac / iPod bundle).

  • by rollx ( 830963 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:12AM (#11208081) Homepage
    At least, a student like me, will be able to buy such a great toy.
    Apple should do it befor x-mass...
  • by Mean_Nishka ( 543399 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:13AM (#11208082) Homepage Journal
    We all know Apple's been sitting on a gold mine if they could only get the cost of their computers in line with the rest of the 'commodity' PC's out in the market. If this rumor is indeed true, Apple could very well pick up some market share.

    The biggest selling point is obviously security. EVERY average Joe computer user I know is compromised with spyware and viruses (especially those with kids). I tell everyone who'll listen to buy a Mac when they're looking for a new PC, because it'll actually work after two weeks of use. It's nice to see that Apple might actually have something affordable for these folks.

  • Re:Great! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrpuffypants ( 444598 ) * <mrpuffypants@gmailTIGER.com minus cat> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:17AM (#11208099)
    I know how silly it is to expect people to actually read the articles around here, but:

    Sources familiar with the product cautioned that the low-end Mac will be marketed towards a totally different audience than those who traditionally buy even a $799 eMac. "This product is not going to be about performance," said a source close to Apple. "This is going to be the basics, but with just as much of a focus on software as any Mac could ever be."

    Entry-level Computer: The new MyMac (or whatever)
    Workstation for Pros: The PowerMac G5

    I don't see how hard it is to realize that they have two vastly different target markets that don't overlap that much; some people will want the experience of using Apple Mail and Safari while others need 8GB of RAM for Photoshop.
  • by TheAcousticMotrbiker ( 313701 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:19AM (#11208109)
    The register has this to say about it:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/29/sub-5 00_im ac/

    Sounds sensible.
    Hook it up to your TV and/or an airport express (or whatever that wireless streaming audio thingamajig is called) and go.

    Of course, a standalone DVD player these days costs $50
  • by mordors9 ( 665662 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:23AM (#11208132)
    You do know that you can run Linux on a Mac don't you? I always dual booted back in my Mac days.
  • by CrackedButter ( 646746 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:25AM (#11208143) Homepage Journal
    You already mentioned it, you get the kool aid, now shut up and wait for it! :)
    Seriously, you can get linux for a mac and with a cleverly designed box. As this iBook gets older I might put linux on it, because at some point it isn't going to handle the newer os'es (Tiger already needs a 64meg gcard).
    In anwser to your question, Linux at this stage doesn't have the more mainstream windows apps that the mac has. Thats an added bonus because you have that compatibility bonus without the day to day hassle of a windows machine..
  • I've wanted a Mac for a long time, but could never -- and I know this rubs more than a few Mac evangelists the wrong way -- justify the cost with the benefits.

    But for this price, sure I'd buy one, and like the parent post, use it with a KVM switch. My girlfriend's father uses a Mac (he's in graphics), and I've had a while to toy around with the interface. And I like it. It's like a classic martini joint compared to the sports bar that is WinXP.
  • Sub-$500 market (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Aggrazel ( 13616 ) <aggrazel@gmail.com> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:27AM (#11208153) Journal
    The way the world is going, "Sub-$500" is slowly edging its way away from the "economy class" and becoming more of the middle line for PCs. Just look at Dell, they are selling brand new Celeron 2.4ghz machines
    • with
    a monitor for $499. On ebay you can find some pretty nice used machines for under $100.

    Over $1000 these days is where you can find some really nice machines. But $1000 is no longer the entry point. If you were someone buying your first computer, would you want to plunge right in to a $1000+ Macintosh, or go for a sub $500 PC?

    It took long enough for Apple to see this, but they would have to be stupid to ignore it forever. It makes perfect sense to offer an entry point into Apple at the sub-$500 mark. And with the massive amount of cashflow they are getting from the overpriced iPod, they can certainly afford to cut their margins a bit on the low end in order to get the "apple" brand into the hands of the PC using public.

    I never really pay much attention to apples, but I love competition in the marketplace, so I hope this is true.
  • by BasilBrush ( 643681 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:30AM (#11208168)
    There's no chance of PCI slots. Even the iMacs don't have PCI slots. This device is rumoured to be only an inch and a bit thick. Other than the Powermac range, and specifics like Airport cards, Apple expansion is via USB peripherals.

    But if you want to use it for office work or internet surfing, it's hard to see why you'd want or need PCI anyway.

  • Re:Interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CrackedButter ( 646746 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:31AM (#11208180) Homepage Journal

    What other software do you need if it is a secondary machine?
    You won't need these for a start when buying a mac:
    Mp3 player, dvd player, photo editor, movie editor, music editor, dvd burning software, internet browser, anti-spyware, anti-virus, word processor, email, instant messenger.
  • 256mb RAM? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kaleco ( 801384 ) <greig@marshall2.btinternet@com> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:31AM (#11208182)
    I'm a little worried that, although the price will be right, too many people will invest in the low-end Mac and end up a little disappointed. Sometimes it's better not to try and compete for control of the market and instead nurture your niche.

    If iPod users invest in this machine, they are quickly going to be disappointed in the lack of games (especially since the spec is relatively low), and find it struggles a bit when they start using large Garageband files. Still, only time will tell. We Slashdotters can, occasionally, be wrong.

  • by BasilBrush ( 643681 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:35AM (#11208206)
    There's no reason why it wouldn't run any MacOS X software. But with what you've got in mind, you better hope that there are plenty of memory expansion slots.
  • Re:Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nexum ( 516661 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:38AM (#11208225)
    It's funny, one thing I remember from WWDC this year was one of the sessions that attempted to debunk the myths about Apple Enterprise Computing - one big one was "It'll be too difficult to train out users on different software"

    The next slide simply showed a class of 4-to-5 year olds sitting on the floor of a classroom learning how to use some new Macs, they all looked like they were having a great time.

    The implication was very clear - either your employees are less capable than the average four-year old, or it's going to be a breeze to train them.

    More seriously though, the whole training thing is a bit of a myth in itself - Microsoft has made a habit out of taking something they see on the Apple platform (in terms of GUI innovation) and breaking it just enough to make sure it doesn't look like a complete rip-off of the original. The consequence that I have found in training PC users to use OS X, is that they already understand how a feature is supposed to work except that in OS X, it actually WORKS like they expect it to finally.
  • Re:PowerBooks (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Nexum ( 516661 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:43AM (#11208254)
    The machines that Apple are selling right now are very comparable with PCs of equivalent spec - it's just that they are VERY full featured, so when you compare the basics it looks like it's more expensive on the Mac side without taking into account the added kit like BT, 802.11g etc.

    As for $400, man - will the whining never end? If this $500 machine isn't cheap enough for you, then I'm sorry it's very likely that Apple doesn't want you as a customer.
  • by peragrin ( 659227 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:44AM (#11208259)
    I made part of the switch at the end of thanksgiving. other than the transprancy I don't notice much of the cool effects anymore.

    I still have a Dull running Windows for games, but have pulled all my document, data, movie, and audio files to the Powerbook.

    OS X has the most of the features of *nix yet it has very few of the down falls(drivers, okay that's all I can think of).

    I bought a lightweight portable computer. It's now very common to see me next to the fire place listening to music and surfing the web for hours at a time. The 4-5 hours of battery life is great. I am getting roughly 4 hours of wireless web surfing. slightly less if I start playing videos. Of course I have also downloaded AND burned a knoppix disc wirelessly and still had two hours to go web surfing with. If Burning a CD isn't power intensive I don't know what else could drain the system.

  • by Nice2Cats ( 557310 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:45AM (#11208266)
    Long, long overdue. The only thing that would annoy me about this is that they didn't get it in time for X-Mas sales -- a Mac for under 500 bucks would have been exactly what I would have gotten my dear mother as a present to replace her little AMD K6.

    However, better late than never as they say...

  • by littleghoti ( 637230 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:48AM (#11208285) Journal
    PC stands for personal computer. Apple were the first company to provide a personal computer with the apple 1.
  • Re:Better Prices? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Nexum ( 516661 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:51AM (#11208309)
    AARRARARARGH GOD!!!!!!!!!

    I do not believe it.

    Apple does the unthinkable - something they have CATAGORICALLY STATED was something they had no interest in, Something that has been asked of them for years, Something that Slashdot users are especially good at complaining about.

    They finally release a sub-$500 Mac.

    What is the Slashdot response?

    "Meh, well it's cheaper but you know... I can get a cheaper box from WalMart so blah blah blah"

    Whinypants.
  • by justforaday ( 560408 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:55AM (#11208334)
    You want to run FCP and Motion, a suite of programs that runs 1300 bucks, but you won't spend more than 500 for the hardware to run it on?!?
  • Innocents Day? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ticotek ( 844412 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:57AM (#11208346) Homepage
    Sorry guys, but the story was published on Dec 28th, which is the innocents saints day. I don't know if you celebrate it much on the States (it's a spanish tradition), but in a lot of places it's the equivalent of your aprils fools day. Don't get me wrong, I would love the 499$ Mac, but when something seems to good to be true, it probably is.
  • No. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rew190 ( 138940 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @09:57AM (#11208351)
    For 500 dollars, without a monitor, you can do a lot of damage. I highly doubt Apple would put out a POS if it's being aimed squarely at those customers who are Apple-curious but haven't made the switch yet. That's probably the last crowd they'd want to turn off, and it's conceivable that Apple is willing to make a low profit margin on this one to penetrate the market. Their position is excellent... iPod popularity and Apple-awareness are pretty outstanding right now, this cheap Mac could probably be the key to moving these people over to Macs. I doubt Apple will make this computer junk (which wouldn't be conducive to their trackrecord lately anyhow).

    500 dollars isn't cheap-o. I'd guess it'll basically be an iBook in a desktop, which can't cost that much.

    Don't underestimate how important Apple might view this computer for their business.
  • by ashooner ( 834246 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:00AM (#11208369)
    Apple has always had a relatively high standard in the performance department. Releasing a G4 in the context of today's rapidly developing Mac software (64 bit, extended memory capability, etc.) is going to leave these headless 'switchers' in the dust eventually, since developers are probably going to move on to the G5 now that it's in the iMac. I just see these new switchers stuck with limited software choices even within the Mac software market. It seems like this would work for no longer than one generation of computer purchases before users realize they need more horsepower. Then again, that is probably all Apple wants (and in my opinion, all it needs) to grab iPod-based converts and get them in front of an iMac.
  • Did you hear that? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pherris ( 314792 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:04AM (#11208397) Homepage Journal
    It was the sound of a huge brick dropping from Bill Gate's back end.

    A $500 Mac IMO would be a biggest thing since the introduction of the PowerPC, iMac or iPod. It will rip through the computer world like a wildfire. The unreal power of OS X and a Mac for the price of some nasty thing from Dell? Oh, it's too good to be true. The only thing that would make it better is if it was like the Mac Cube and silent. That would throw the computer world for a spin. Imagine all the uses: small web server farms, MS Windows owners buying one with a KVM to run along side their MS Windows box. Jobs has pull off some pretty stunts and this without a doubt would be in his top 10. I will buy three the first day they come out; one for my daughter (she loves my wife's Mac and hates to share), one for my folks (playing admin for their MS Window's box sucks and one for me to run Ubuntu and MOL (hey, I had a ton of great Classic apps that still do the job).

    If someone says they're also bring back HyperCard I'll know it's a dream. If this new Mac is real Mac is back!

  • by amichalo ( 132545 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:18AM (#11208485)
    Are you for real?

    Why don't you let Apple release a 64-bit OS before you declare the 32-bit G4 and these new switchers "stuck with limited software choices". This is a freaking entry level Mac, not some pro-media editing workstation. It is for people who want to surf, email, IM, listen to music, and open a Word or Excel doc from work. What do they need 64-bit computing for in 2004?

    Yeah, it will leave "headless switchers in the dust eventually", but so will a top of the line Apple, or for that matter any PC purchased today. That's just the marketspace.

    I am using a 1st generation 400Mhz G4 PowerBook at home and while I wish it had a few of the bells and whistles of a newer system, this thing is totally capable for the tasks i described above. That said, it is my opnionion that the system described by ThinkSecret will not leave any Switcher disapointed in their investment.
  • RAM is the problem (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ZorinLynx ( 31751 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:30AM (#11208577) Homepage
    256MB of RAM is NOT ENOUGH to run OSX well. It's odd that Apple, who designed OSX, doesn't notice this and continues to sell systems which start at 256MB of RAM.

    The starting RAM size should be 512, with room for expansion. One of the more annoying things they do is offer Powerbooks with 512, but with both slots full (256 in each), so expansion ability is stifled. It actually costs more to get the 512MB in ONE slot.

    This is one of the few things that still pisses me off about Apple. The other thing is iBooks and iMacs needing a hack to do desktop spanning across two displays, but that's another rant. }:)

    -Z
  • by atrizzah ( 532135 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:35AM (#11208617)

    But at a sub-$500 price point, every dollar matters. If these things do sell like hotcakes, Apple needs to squeeze out the biggest margin they possibly can in order to make any money on it. This computer isn't going to be meant for the type of person who reads specs before they buy, it's for the people who just want to try out the new "Internet thingy" they've been hearing about these days. Apple wants people like you to shell out a bit more cash for your computer. I think that in this case, "underspeccing" is the way to go, since they know plenty of people will buy it regardless of specs because they just want to try Apple (if they're high end users) or own any computer at all (if they're low end users).

    A great example, have you heard of the low end Palm Zire series? Absurdly underspecced--they even decreased the number of hardware buttons--but they became Palm's best selling unit for over a year. And it's simply because the type of people who bought it weren't power users and didn't demand competitive specs, they just wanted any Palm. For many, it was perfectly adequate, and for others, it whetted their apetite for a more powerful unit (more dollars for Palm)

  • Re:PowerBooks (Score:1, Insightful)

    by TylerL82 ( 617087 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:36AM (#11208635) Homepage
    Some people just won't buy Macs unless Apple PAYS them to do so. ...and even then, the machine's just gonna go on eBay anyway.
  • by jrifkin ( 100192 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:53AM (#11208820)
    If they're trying to woo the iPod users, they should provide a built-in iPod dock, and help reduce cable sprawl.
  • Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by swcrissman ( 264085 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @10:57AM (#11208861)

    The next slide simply showed a class of 4-to-5 year olds sitting on the floor of a classroom learning how to use some new Macs, they all looked like they were having a great time.

    The implication was very clear - either your employees are less capable than the average four-year old, or it's going to be a breeze to train them.


    Bzzzzzt! False dichotomy. Users are very capable, they just aren't motivated. Learning a new system to them is work they can do, but they don't see themselves benefitting from it, thus they are not motivated and can be very difficult to train. If they don't see a clear benefit to using the new system, they probably won't give it a fair shake. The four year olds are probably quite a bit likely to have more curiosity and will likely be less set in their ways, so they'd probably make much better students.

    I agree there shouldn't be any problem with the actual teaching, but getting everyone on board can be a real hassle. I'd say it depends alot on the group you are trying to teach.

    -swc
  • Exactly, just wanting it to work. They should go out and buy this mac. Didn't I make my point obvious enough?
  • by olcrazypete ( 592916 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @11:31AM (#11209164)
    Apple produces "PCs" - Personal Computers. Its become a generic term for a Wintel based computer, but they produced the FIRST PCs!, I've got an old beige mac on the shelf here that says right on it "Power PC".

    If you remember your geek history right, in the late 70s, early 80s the whole point of Apple was to produce computers normal people could afford. The mac and the snazziness came later, but the Apple Is and IIs were cheap compared to the alternatives (if there were any). Hell, the first apples sold for $666, I wouldn't advise using this price considering the current political climate, but something in that range would be very competitive.

    I would love it if they would put out a nice little machine like this for the Web/Email crowd that will never produce a home movie, mix their own music, etc. A nicely priced secure box for the non savvy if you will. I've got a ton of people I know that ask me from time to time what computer to buy. The response after I mention a Mac is "they are so expensive, and I saw a dell in the paper for $400, the cheapest mac is like $1000." Believe me, these are people that will surf the web, play solitare, and write a letter or two. That's it.

    Make a cheap mac for these folks. Be blunt about its limitations, but put it out there.
    P
  • by ePhil_One ( 634771 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @11:57AM (#11209424) Journal
    wait for this lower cost workstation

    This thing ain't no workstation. Most likely its a "Media Center" with PC capabilities, a place to centralize all your iPod songs, load your iPod, browse the web, edit a document in Office:Mac 2004, sync your cell phone via Bluetooth, etc. So few people really need the heavy lifting of a 3+ Ghz computer.

    Heck, the lack of constant spyware invasions are enough to make me think I'd be ahead of the game replacing a few relatives PC's. Those 3-hour spyware removal missions get annoying every three months

  • by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @11:58AM (#11209442)
    I'm betting it's nonsense, though.

    1. Apple has long expressed no interest in selling such a machine.

    2. A new G4 desktop system in Spring of 2005? No chance. Apple is moving away from the Motorola G4 archetecture, in favor of the IBM G5. The eMac and the current laptops will probably be the end of the line for the G4.

    3. The current G4 eMac is $800, and their margin on it is thin (by Apple standards.) This rumored system is pretty much a G4 with the $100 monitor removed. No way Apple sells it for $500.

    4. Everybody who says they would never buy one of the current Macs, but would buy this one for $500 out of impulse, is a damn liar. You can already buy a headless G4 Mac for under $600. Just go to eBay and buy an old G4 tower from about two years ago. Hell, for that matter, you can buy an old G3 tower which will run OS X just fine for about $300. Add a $100 CPU upgrade, and there's your G4 right there.
  • by Weeb ( 69841 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:00PM (#11209458) Homepage
    I enjoy hearing other people say "it just works," mainly because this is my main mode of praise for my G5 system.

    When I'm using my XP laptop, I can't help shake the feeling that the OS wasn't designed for... well, me. It seems to have been designed for itself. Functions like networking are annoyingly cryptic but only because XP feels like a know-it-all that assumes you know exactly as much as it does at any given moment. Even making those stupid, egregiously annoying bubbles that pop up in the corner requires editing the registry and rebooting. XP is a brat.

    OS X doesn't feel like that. It has a very sophisticated feature set as well as innumerable user-specifiable options that range from networking settings to desktop pictures and screensavers. Every last tweakable on my machine is laid out in a very clear and logical fashion and making changes is an exercise in reason -- not the guesswork and prayer that have marked my XP experiences.

    Perhaps the best indication of OS X's effectiveness is the built-in Find tool. Invoking a single keystroke brings you to a powerful, logic-based search tool that can be customized quickly. Don't get me started on the mental retardation that was requisite in designing XP's search interface and that necessitates using Google Desktop on every installation.

    Like I said. It just works.
  • by ObiWanKenblowme ( 718510 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:08PM (#11209532)
    You can get a stylish PC case. You can put an OS on your PC that works, and provided that you know what you're doing and configure it like you should, it will be just as functional as your Mac-based system...

    I think you touched on an important point: provided that you know what you're doing and configure it . It's not that OSX is stylish and functional, it's that it's stylish and functional without having to mess with it. You can make other products work, but they don't come out of the box with the same level of functionality and polish that Apple (usually) provides.
  • Re:Here They Come (Score:3, Insightful)

    by grunherz ( 447840 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:21PM (#11209684)
    It's actually more ergonomic to use the command key.

    Unfortunately, I switched to a Mac when the two-button with scroll wheel mouse had already been burned into my brain and I work with it.

    But, if you ever watch a Mac user, especially a professional, who uses a lot of keyboard shortcuts, that command key is the most used key on the keyboard and the left thumb is always posed above it.

    A one-button mouse is not a detriment and is in fact a more efficient way to work if you have learned to work within the ergonomic environment that it was designed in.

    Kinda like a Dvorak keyboard.

  • by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:24PM (#11209711)
    ..my notion of Steve Jobs being a carefully observing computer geek / visionary and top-notch manager in unison.
    This is exactly what Apple has to do in order to expand into the gap that MS is leaving behind by slowly but shurely trickeling out of the corporate workplaces. A Sub-500$, low power computer that comes shrinkwrapped with OS X is all it takes to migrate even more people who hate MS (everybody exept gamers) to their plattform. Right now the only alternative for modern micro systems is to get some cool Mini ITX or XPC and spend 20 days trying to get Linux running on it satisfactory.
    With a move like this Apple would put it's foot down and make a clear statement for the 100% OSS-ready appliance market.
    As I said earlier [slashdot.org], this is the next logical step needed to share he market between OSS and all-in-one-package providers. Which Apple essentially is. If this is going to happen, my next file-and-mail server is going to be a mac aswell.
  • The Cube reborn? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pherris ( 314792 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:28PM (#11209751) Homepage Journal
    If you look on ebay the price of Mac Cubes are nuts. A typical Cube (now what, four years old?) sells for $500 to $700 and has atleast 40 bids. I have to wonder if someone at Apple finally realized the Cube was a very cool machine and cancelling it was a mistake.
  • by biffnix ( 174407 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:35PM (#11209818) Homepage Journal

    There is a market for these, and you've spotted it - the teeming masses who will use it for email and nothing else.

    But, the whole point of Apple's biggest marketshare success was that Steve Wozniak was a tinkerer, and made a box that was easy to tinker with! Do you remember when people made 3rd party cards for Apple IIs and Apple actually encouraged that? There were all kinds of cool hacks, alternate vendors for stuff, (hard drives! floppy disk controllers, RAM cards, modems, and so much more).

    Moreover, businesses used them because they were capable of running spreadsheets, and there were no alternatives then (IBM's original PC wasn't even made yet!), and the Apple II kicked everyone's ass in terms of expandability and 3rd party software.

    It was Steve Jobs who made the Macintosh into a strictly defined device (he often made the "toaster" analogy - computers would be consumer items like toasters - no need to tinker with it!). Jobs never really understood the psychological mindset of the folks who made the Apple II such a success (more successful in terms of business market penetration even than any Mac since) - that people WANT the ability to hack a computer, even if they never use that ability.

    When presented with two computers - one with expandability, lots of 3rd party vendor accessories, and the second with limited hardware, only for use with the original vendor certified parts, then most (not all, but most) will choose one with the ABILITY to use more features, even if they NEVER ACTUALLY USE THAT ABILITY. That's the "consumer" hacker mindset, and Jobs never "got" it in the same way Wozniak instinctively did.

    Just my two cents.

    Joe G.
    Bishop, CA

  • Re:I'll take four (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hawthorne01 ( 575586 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:38PM (#11209858)
    Okay, a point by point rebuttal:
    no way apple will lower prices, as they have highest margins in the PC world

    That's not the concern it used to be. They have one of the hottest gadgets in recent memory with the iPod, and they make as much on that as they do with some of their computer line. They can afford to take a hit in profit to build up user base. It's called a "loss leader".

    a clone mac was tried last year and it failed.

    If by "last year" you mean "1994", then you're correct. And they failed for a whole host of reasons, the least of which is that Apple killed OS licensing in 1996.

    Besides,with bittorrent taking up 35% of net use,apple software would be canabalized and free

    You've never installed OS X, I take it. There is no serial number registration, there is no unique identifier for the disc. You can use the same disc to install OS X on any number of computers and they'll all work just fine. Illegally, but fine. :-) Apple doesn't think everyone in the world is a thief and lock you into DRM hell (okay, the iTMS is the exception. Compare their DRM to WindowsMCE, though). Look at the DRM that's packed with an iPod: a brief note exhorting you not to steal.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @12:55PM (#11210066)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:Here They Come (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @01:05PM (#11210172)
    You're kidding, right?

    How is it more convenient and efficient to use two hands to perform a task when I can just as easily use one?
  • by ArbitraryConstant ( 763964 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @01:08PM (#11210200) Homepage
    "
    Just out of curiousity, what are you going to use those PCI slots for ?

    There is already NIC, Firewire, USB, Sound and Video cards onboard. I've had several macs, and i've never installed a single addon card in any of them.

    The only thing i've ever come up with was to use one as a firewall, in that case a second NIC would be desirable, but otherwise?
    "
    Uhg... I hate it when people say that.

    To most people, PCI slots don't matter. To a minority, they do matter, and to that minority, the lack may prevent them from buying a Mac. In my case, I have a tendency to upgrade older machines and move them into a server role as I replace them on the desktop, and this is not possible with the inexpensive Macs being discussed in this article.

    For example, consider my current firewall/server machine and the upgrades I have done, relative to an iMac from the same time period. It's a Pentium 2 400 mhz from 1997 or so.

    -Add another NIC so I can use it as a firewall... impossible on the iMac.
    -Add an SATA card... impossible on the iMac.
    -Add a 160 gb hard drive... impossible on the iMac as the ATA controllers of the time could not handle drives bigger than 128 gb.
    -Use the drive at full speed... impossible on the iMac because the ATA controllers of the time were limited to ATA-33.
    -Now using 2 hard drives... impossible on the iMac.
    -Upgrade the second NIC to gigabit... impossible on the iMac. Impossible on current iMacs too.
    -Upgrade the USB to USB 2.0... impossible on the iMac.

    It's not that Apple computers don't have all the spiffy ports, it's that they can't be upgraded later on when the definition of "spiffy port" changes.

    People usually argue that enthusiasts like myself should be buying PowerMacs, but the whole point is that a $500 PC is just as capable of doing these things as a $2000 PowerMac. PowerMacs have many benefits, but you pay for a lot of benefits that you don't need to buy the one benefit that you do.
  • by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @01:19PM (#11210311) Homepage Journal
    System builders all over the world would buy them up and build Apple-compatible computers.

    Let me know when Microsoft starts giving away Windows for free with a bundled software suite, because Apple subsidizes their sofware R&D from hardware sales, so if they drop their hardware margins you don't get software.

    Would you really be happier if you could get an ATX Mac Board and then had to go to Staples to put down $129 for OSX and $49 for iLife, and whatever for Appleworks, Quicken and whatever else they're bundling these days?

    Maybe if you were just building a linux system, but that's such a small market segment Apple can't orient their business around it.
  • Re:Not enough RAM (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bhima ( 46039 ) <Bhima.Pandava@DE ... com minus distro> on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @01:52PM (#11210670) Journal
    That's right but because Apple memory is so expensive, unless it happens more than three times, you still come out ahead.
  • by bnenning ( 58349 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @02:09PM (#11210859)
    It would make sense that the rumored machine would be "not marketed to the traditional market" if it was for the Thais.

    Apple tried that sort of thing before; the eMac was originally supposed to be only for education, but popular demand forced them to sell to everyone. If they try to limit this Mac to specific countries, we'll see a huge gray market spring up in record time.
  • by GFLPraxis ( 745118 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @02:16PM (#11210943) Homepage Journal
    You're not exactly currect.

    1. Apple has long expressed no interest in selling such a machine.

    The article mentions this and explains why Apple still may do it.

    2. A new G4 desktop system in Spring of 2005? No chance. Apple is moving away from the Motorola G4 archetecture, in favor of the IBM G5. The eMac and the current laptops will probably be the end of the line for the G4.

    INCORRECT! Motorola has announced that they are working on dual-core G4's that scale to 2 GHz, with 64-bit extensions, and only 25w power output. They've also announced single-core G4's with 10w power output. The G4 is not dead, and a dual core 64-bit G4 would be PERFECT for a PowerBook.

    3. The current G4 eMac is $800, and their margin on it is thin (by Apple standards.) This rumored system is pretty much a G4 with the $100 monitor removed. No way Apple sells it for $500.

    You're forgetting that the eMac is due for an upgrade soon. If they release an updated, faster eMac this January, then they could release this system for $500.

    4. Everybody who says they would never buy one of the current Macs, but would buy this one for $500 out of impulse, is a damn liar. You can already buy a headless G4 Mac for under $600. Just go to eBay and buy an old G4 tower from about two years ago. Hell, for that matter, you can buy an old G3 tower which will run OS X just fine for about $300. Add a $100 CPU upgrade, and there's your G4 right there.

    Not exactly. There's a few reasons not to do that. BTW, right now I have a PowerBook, but no Mac Desktop. If I could get one for $500, I'd seriously consider it.

    Now, look at your suggestion. If I ran out and bought an old G3, then added a $100 CPU upgrade, bam, I have a good speed G4 system.

    But wait! The system still has a sucky bus speed, slower RAM, and a small hard drive.

    Oh well, I'll live. So NOW, because this computer is way older than Mac OS X, I have to go out and buy Mac OS X for $129. Oh, and don't forget, an extra $49 for iLife. AND some extra money on AppleWorks (don't remember the price!) Thats more than an extra $178 on the software I would get FREE with anything from Apple.

    So now this system costs over $570, and still has slower memory and a smaller hard drive and lack of Airport Extreme support you'd get in a system from Apple. Plus the fact that it may have been abused since I would have bought it used, AND that there's no warranty...I'd take a $499 G4 from Apple, please.
  • by pherris ( 314792 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @02:27PM (#11211078) Homepage Journal
    Seriously, Apple turns out an interesting and exciting product, people praise it and the anti mac crowd comes out and trashes them. Computers are not a religion, they're tools. If you're happy with another OS then fine, use it and enjoy it.

    While this article should've spawned positive discussions on this new Mac's possible uses, it pros and cons, it has partly turned into flamefest where people get trashed for say something less than "MS Windows XP is number one."

    It's about a new Mac and a new direction for Apple, nothing more.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @02:31PM (#11211119)
    "Better" is not a simple scalar measurement that maps trivially to "faster".
  • by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @02:32PM (#11211134)
    An old G4 tower from about two years ago will have old software from about two years ago.

    Depends on who you buy it from. Were I currently selling one right now, I would probably have 10.3 loaded on it, because I tend to keep my Macs up-to-date.

    For that matter, if you are a typical Slashdot DIY type, buy a stripped bare-bones G4 system from a repair shop, load it with whatever HD, memory, graphics card, and CD/DVD drive you like, pick up a copy of 10.3 for $120, and you will probably end up with a nicer machine than this imaginary system which Think Secret is talking about for about the same money.

    You may sacrifice a small amount of CPU performance, but if you cared about that you would be looking at the G5 towers, not wishing you could buy a headless eMac.
  • Re:Here They Come (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @03:44PM (#11211994)
    And this is why I can't stand mac zealots, they will go out of their way to justify anything. Even if it is something as stupid as having to hold a command key instead of a simple 2nd button which is more convenient and efficient.

    What is more effecent, me having to have the keyboard near the mouse, both hands on the mouse and keyboard, or just using the mouse and right clicking to do what I wanted? What about all the commands I have to do from the keyboard/browser window when I want to scroll, go forward, go back, open a new tab without a menu(i.e. the 3rd mouse button on Firefox in Windows), and click links without resorting to holding the mouse button down for a few seconds?

    Incase you haven't figured it out, the best one is the option that has more then one mouse button.
  • Re:Here They Come (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SoupIsGoodFood_42 ( 521389 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @03:48PM (#11212038)
    It's actually more ergonomic to use the command key.

    Unless you've been doing what I've been doing for the last 30 minutes; browsing the web with my left arm comfortably under my chin, or in my lap half the time.

    I'll give you usablity. But not ergonomics. Because in reality, people don't nessesarly sit with their spare hand over the keyboard all the time if they don't need to use it.

    However, I agree that when you do have your other hand over the keyboard, it's better (or at least equal).

  • Re:reality check (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gobbo ( 567674 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @04:17PM (#11212421) Journal
    Are you are not applying the 5 security updates Apple released in the last 5 months (9/07, 9/16, 9/30, 10/27, 12/2) that requires a reboot then?

    Not on that machine, not until a particular project is finished next month. Always update between major projects. It's a calculated risk, and easier to make when you're 'flying under the radar' on an alternative OS.

    used the trademark phrase of "snappy"

    OK, busted. The dual G4 is right at the edge of what I consider a responsive GUI, and not always snappy (eg. when rendering). The G5 is 'snappy.' Your 'greased-pig' dig is gratuitous: I make no silly speed claims for old gear, other than admiring the speed-up in 10.3 and the longevity of Apple's kit. For the record, I like working on Macs, but only in comparison to XP or a less-than-perfect Linux install, and I'd still be running W2K on my admin machine if it didn't require constant fiddling with security. Computers are a looong ways off from what I want, have wanted for 20 years, and Apple bears most of my ire in that respect since they lead the pack in many design directions.

    To return to the point: a G4 will be fast enough for the average user if RAM is adequate.

  • by NilObject ( 522433 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @04:43PM (#11212697)
    -Add another NIC so I can use it as a firewall... impossible on the iMac.
    -Add an SATA card... impossible on the iMac.
    -Add a 160 gb hard drive... impossible on the iMac as the ATA controllers of the time could not handle drives bigger than 128 gb.
    -Use the drive at full speed... impossible on the iMac because the ATA controllers of the time were limited to ATA-33.
    -Now using 2 hard drives... impossible on the iMac.
    -Upgrade the second NIC to gigabit... impossible on the iMac. Impossible on current iMacs too.
    -Upgrade the USB to USB 2.0... impossible on the iMac.


    It sounds suspisciously like you don't want a consumer machine... If you wanted all this, would you buy a low level $600 Dell machine *then* upgrade everything? If you want pro-level equipment, you probably want to *buy* pro-level equipment.

    It's not that Apple computers don't have all the spiffy ports, it's that they can't be upgraded later on when the definition of "spiffy port" changes.

    Very true. However, that hasn't ever presented a problem to me. By the time the "spiffy port" has changed, I'm buying a new computer anyways. But as always, YMMV.

    People usually argue that enthusiasts like myself should be buying PowerMacs, but the whole point is that a $500 PC is just as capable of doing these things as a $2000 PowerMac. PowerMacs have many benefits, but you pay for a lot of benefits that you don't need to buy the one benefit that you do.

    I can see your point, but realize, your strategy is not Apple's strategy. Because people who want fancy things buy the fancy computers, Apple is able to make a profit. Imagine if their $499 Mac was as expandable as their PowerMac- it would cannabalize their PowerMac sales. Apple's formula seems to work for them. I'm too lazy to see if it's cheaper to buy a bare-bones computer and upgrade it to the equivalent high-end specs of some other machine.

    In the end, if you don't like it- you don't have to buy it. What works best for you, be it a Mac or PC or NeXT Cube or whatever, is what you should use.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @04:51PM (#11212795)
    ahem...

    Q: What is apple trying to do?
    A: Switch windows users to mac.

    Q: Where is the problem?
    A: Prices for even a low end mac.

    Q: Soulution?
    A: Offer a cheap mac so those that want to switch can use their current monitor on this machine and get a decent taste of macs.
  • by Batlord ( 33242 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @06:12PM (#11213556)
    TFA mentions that it will be small--designed to sit under or next to an existing monitor. If the target market is current windows users wanting to smoothly make the "switch", it should do a KVM pass-through, cables included.

    Plug PC into mac. Plug mac into existing keyboard, mouse, monitor.

    The pass-through should also include ethernet, just to cut down on cable clutter.

    You could easily make a simple physical "mac/not mac" switch on the front of the machine (next to the drive & on/off buttons).

    I would buy one. I might buy two.

  • One more thing.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by rosst ( 822822 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @06:23PM (#11213646)
    You know what would rock on this thing; TV Out.

    Instant media centre, webtv, basic games box. Get MAME on it and your set.
  • by JoeyCanolie ( 691392 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @06:31PM (#11213711)
    Ugh... I hate when people call a PC (Personal Computer) a Server. I guess because it serves something. Headaches? Im wondering what you are serving from this machine. Since its so old and you are putting all this new HW into it. Im sure that a P2 400 cant handle Gigbit while writing to a SATA drives/card. while handling traffic from 2 nics. BOTTLENECKS???? i think would be the term here. And i wouldnt compare a P2 400 with an imac of its time. Apple/Orange. An imac was for your mother or teenage girls who wanted a pretty easy to use computer. Not to throw 6 PCI cards into and serve anything but AOL IMs and Emails.
  • by tentimestwenty ( 693290 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @07:29PM (#11214161)
    1. Apple might decide to make less money and go for some market share. At worst they'll break even, at best they will win a lot of converts. Cheap is good for Apple. 2. Even if the $500 Mac is 1.25GHz, that's more than enough for almost everybody. I can still run the newest OS X and Photoshop on my PB G4 400mhz with 384MB of RAM. I do design work on this thing. It's not fast, but it's still plenty POWERFUL. 3. There's plenty to differentiate between Apple's product lines already. Even between a $500 headless Mac and the eMac, the big differentiation is THE FORM FACTOR. Believe it or not, most people who buy the eMac actually like having it all-in-one and will still buy it even if it costs more. Schools are the big one here. 4. Small PCs are big now. People are putting PCs in places that they never went before, the kitchen, the bedroom, installations, on top of the TV. Small is a growing niche and it will sell on this alone. 5. Go fanless and you never go back. Silent computing is the biggest trend to come. Everyone I know who bought a fanless iMac or nearly fanless laptop has sworn to never buy a computer with a fan again.
  • Missing the point (Score:2, Insightful)

    by IronicGrin ( 619760 ) on Wednesday December 29, 2004 @11:09PM (#11215502)
    This isn't really being positioned as a computer; this is the world's biggest iPod accessory. j
  • by inkswamp ( 233692 ) on Thursday December 30, 2004 @06:16AM (#11217516)
    "Confirmed" seems a strong word, but I hope this is more than wishful thinking.

    AppleInsider also has their own version of this rumor with slightly different details, and MacOSRumors has been reporting tidbits for the last year. These three sites have a startlingly high degree of accuracy in their rumor reports. When these three sites all agree on the basic concept, you can pretty much consider it "confirmed."

    Usually when they appear to be "wrong" about something, it's the result of Apple holding off on a product announcement for some unforeseen reason. Barring those cases, you can bet if these sites are reporting it, it's in the works.

  • by inkswamp ( 233692 ) on Thursday December 30, 2004 @03:48PM (#11221347)
    I agree that TS and AI are the two best rumor sites out there. I'm continually amazed by their stuff. However, I wouldn't totally write off MacOSRumors. If you look at their archives, you'll see that they had details about this headless Mac as far back as April and most of the details appear to be what TS and AI are now reporting. I think the "flinging poo" approach will get you a few accurate hits from time-to-time, but I don't think that approach will yield details as specific as what they have been posting over the last year. I watch that site along with TS and AI and their details on the headless Mac has been consistent. If they were just "flinging poo" then their details would be sketchy and all over the board, but they're not. They've stuck by their reports and those details are very similar to what AI and TS are now confirming.

  • by Zhe Mappel ( 607548 ) on Friday December 31, 2004 @01:37AM (#11225662)
    A certain kind of Mac lover--not the majority, in my view--loves to say gloatingly, on message boards, in a voice that I always imagine sounds like a cross between Alistair Cooke and Leonard Pinth-Garnell:

    Apple shall nevah make a low-end product just as BMW shall nevah stoop to competing with Saturns

    Or some such. You know what I'm talking about.

    But the fact is, Apple's now an mp3 player company that happens to sell a tiny number of computers, too. And they're nice computers. I sure like ours. But if it or Wall Street thought iPods would translate into Powerbook or PowerMac sales, they were dreaming.

    iPods might translate into sales of inexpensive headless boxes, though. They might if you can say, "Well, that cheap-ass Dell is no deal when I can get a decent machine for the same price." And it might work on impulse terms, too, especially if Apple builds on the kind of this-is-an-iPod-styled-computer metaphor it used in the introduction of the recent iMac. Oddly and ironically, you'd be accessorizing your iPod with a new computer. Hell, why not? Paradigms shift.

    Then again, maybe the Pinth-Garnell set is right, and Apple will never stoop. But Jobs is shrewd, and the economic forecast for USA, Inc., is gloomy and getting gloomier. Maybe, just maybe, it's time to stoop!

  • by ErikZ ( 55491 ) on Saturday January 01, 2005 @05:04AM (#11232754)
    "Would a consumer rather buy a $500 headless Mac and a $100 CRT monitor then a $799 eMac?"

    Yes. In fact, if this isn't just a rumor, I'll buy one.

    "As an Apple Store employee, this just doesn't make sense to me. Why would they want to sell a $500 computer when the extra cost of a monitor would nullify the fact that it is a cheap Mac?"

    500$ + 100$ = 600$
    Cheap emac = 800$

    Is the savings of two hundred dollars that confusing to you?

    It matters.

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

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