Caveats In Reselling DSL Bandwidth To Neighbors? 383
chrisleetn writes "I'm contemplating getting Slashdot (Speakeasy) 6Mbps broadband or something similar and offering wireless internet access to my neighborhood. Speakeasy even has a plan to allow this. What should I be aware of as far as legal/business/regulatory implications? I know I need to restrict obvious illegal stuff and probably p2p to be safe, but is the local cable modem company going to come after me for competing with them? Has anyone done this who can offer some insight?"
Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
... but the upload sucks (Score:5, Insightful)
They come at all hours. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the broadest sense, once people start paying money, no matter how small, the relationship changes.
When connectivity on Sunday at 7am goes down, people will look at where they can get help. If they have a door to knock on, then woe betide you.
ianal but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
as another poster said, is it really worth the trouble when it comes to billing?
also keep in mind that using wireless opens up their computer to the world. make sure folks know this before you let them join your network.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
i'd call it the Food for IP program. like food for oil, but not corrupt.
Re:Why would the cable modem company come after yo (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you missed the point. They can't cut his service, because they aren't providing it. What he means is that the CABLE companies might come after him because he is reselling the bandwidth he is getting from his DSL provider.
One reason they might do this is because they would be afraid that he might set some kind of example that their cable customers might expect they could get away with. After the cable company THEN has their own customers doing this, they are forced with the decision of either allowing it themselves, or cutting off their customers. That would be sending business to the competition.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
I set up a laptop with quickbooks and some custom invoices and reciepts for a friend of mine who runs a tree service, in return he cut down a few trees and ground out some stumps.
I fixed another friend of a friends' kids PS2, and he (a plumber) came over and helped me replace a hot water heater.
I do it all the time, it's all about being social and knowing the right people, and having something to trade.
It works well for us.. Many/most tradesmen who work with their hands don't know shit about their PCs.
My neighbour is a cabinetmaker by trade, and a contractor. This idea of giving him free wireless internet is intriguing. I think I might just offer him free internet forever* if he helps me build the bar I want.
* - forever does not necessarily mean "for ever"
I wish 'society' could be a little more social. Look at an amish barnraising to see how much can be accomplished in a short amount of time if people will pitch in.
Yet, despite the fact that I sweated and toiled one weekend to help a neighbour install a chain link fence, he just sat there with his new snowblower while watching me bust my ass shovelling my driveway when he could have done it in about 5 minutes.
Oh well, people are a bunch of asses. That's why we invented money.
Cost:Profit Ratio Biggest Issue? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
The cookie program is probably your best bet on the grounds that you'll lose yourself a whole lot of legal hassle and gain yourself something more fulfilling community wise. There's just something nice about your neighbours bringing you dinner once a month or every couple of months. And there's something not nice about introducing money/legal agreements to friendships; or the calculator-fight that will break out when your connection goes down and they want re-imbursement or because you aren't there for tech support because you're on holiday, etc.
Saying you will provide this service on best-effort terms in return for cookies/lawn-mowing/kid-collecting etc is your best, friendliest, non-legally dangerous way of doing this. A great idea that I shall probably copy.
Re:Why would the cable modem company come after yo (Score:1, Insightful)
That's a big "it depends" (Score:2, Insightful)
Also depends on what kind of people your neighbours are. A biggie here is what kind of tech support they'll want/demand. Given that you are right next door, they may expect that you should fix ALL their computer problems, if you provide them service. So find out, and if they are the demanding type, decide if you can deal with this, because they are likely to be unhappy if oyu can't.
Along those lines, you need to decide what kind of support you are willing to do. You have to do basic Internet support, that's part of the deal, but what extra support are you willing to do and at what point does it start to cost extra money? Only you can decide on that, but you need to decide before, not after. Lay out the terms in teh beginning, or there will be problems later.
You will also need an AUP, and you probably want some hardware to enforce parts of it (like blocking ports, controlling traffic, etc). A M0n0wall box is a good idea for soemthing like that. However equally important to the harwdare to enforce it is a policy, stated before. Let people know what they can and can't do.
Mostly, it depends on your willingness to be support and the disposition of your neighbours. I provide net for roomate, not neighbours, but you still get the full gamut of people. Some are real easy to work with. My current roomate doesn't even bother me when the net goes down, he knows I know and will get it fixed. Some seem to think that since I provide them net, I should have to fix every problem that happens on their computer.
However, so long as you lay things out before hand, stick to your guns, and are comfortable with providing whatever level of support you commit to, it should work well. This is all assuming you know your neighbours of course. If they are basically just strangers that just happen to live next to you, well then all bets are off.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:4, Insightful)
When you do a small ISP jobby, you make yourself the sole support contact. Everyone will bug you about every minor shit problem imaginable. I did this with my nuclear family (basically all living on the same block), and it was just pathetic. Your ass will be on line for every computer problem they can throw at you, and worst of all you're not getting paid for it. And if you don't go and fix it soon, these people know where you live, and they're going to resent it.
Really, it wasn't that these things were so problemsome, but my family is a group of procrastinators to the extreme. I try hard to avoid this, but when grandma calls dad and says that cousin susie has a computer problem and can't finish her midterm assignement the night before it's due (when in reality she's downloading cowboy music off of Kazzaa--which also means your ass is grass is she ever gets caught)... Well, you're tempted to grab the shotgun and blow shit up. Not healthy.
Having had personal experience with this issue, I'd say it's not a good idea at all, UNLESS all of your neighbors are cheap ass geeks who can fix their own problems, but are too poor to afford a cable connection on their own... Basically, It's a stupid idea, unless you want the hassle...
Does sharing cableTV hold true for bandwidth? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why would it be legal for me to share my bandwidth?
Folks, it's a nice idea, but wake up. (Score:3, Insightful)
And get subpoenaed in the divorce proceeding.
And/or get sued for invasion of privacy.
And/or get your car keyed.
And/or get your house burned down.
Why any sane person would want to do this is beyond me. I don't want my neighbors knowing what I do online, nor do I want to know what they do. There's way too much exposure here from a legal and liability point of view to be worth it to anyone, IMHO. The sentiment is admirable, but naive.
The odds are that someone on the 'customer' end of this arrangement is going to be sharing/downloading questionable content at some point after the arrangement is made. The way I see it, one of two things is likely to happen at that point:
1) The "provider" party will notice the traffic somehow, and take steps to prevent it. No matter how this is done, it's likely to ruffle some feathers, if not cause an all out neighbor war. Remember, you have to live next to these people.
2) The "provider" party will not notice the traffic, and $randomlargecompanywithexpensivelawyers will sue them. The MPAA/RIAA/Thought police/etc won't make the effort to determine if it's actually the "provider" user or the "customer" user in this arrangement that is infringing on their copyrights/whatever, their SOP is to sue the user who has paid the ISP for the access. The fact that you've essentially become an ISP will more than likely come out in the proceedings if a lawsuit goes forward, but by that time they've already bankrupted you with legal fees and taken your house.
It's just not worth it.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh well, people are a bunch of asses. That's why we invented money.
Unfortunately, even inside close circles of family and friends, shit occasionally happens. I'd never recommend doing anything of large financial scale with family or friends without having a written contract. Part of the problem is people interpret things differently or have different expectations. You might make a handshake deal to rent a condo you own to a family member for $500 a month. Sounds good, huh? Well, what does this include? For how long? What happens if the condo association dues go up? Can you raise the rate? What if said family member loses his job? Is he expecting you to let the rent slide for 6 months or a year? If the place is dirty when he finally moves out and needs new carpet and paint, who pays?
In fact, contract or no contract, I've often found it better NOT to do business with friends. I know of too many cases where it has ruined relationships that I assure you were originally rock-solid.
That said, there is nothing wrong with friends helping friends on occasion as long as there are no expectations. This is what friendship is all about.
Re:They come at all hours. (Score:3, Insightful)
Certainly if you want to be an ISP, then you need to have a lawyer. You also need to figure out if your customers will pay enough to cover the lawyer, the DSL fees, and your time. So what might it be, 10 costumers paying $25 a month?
In rural areas they have an issue with utilities. They use collectives. A group decides that a service is needed, but no one is willing or able to cover all normal overhead expenses. So they chip in to get the service, and everyone helps wil the maintainance. In your case each person chips in some money every month to cover the bills, each person is on a rotating schedule to maintain the system, and no one person is screwed. Of course, any profit you might expect to make will evaporate, except the intangible like being the only one hardwired to a 6 MBS line, while everyone else can be throttled for 'fairness'.
Let them use p2p (Score:3, Insightful)
I would cap their bandwidth but don't bother trying to stop them from using p2p. Their own computer is the loser here and as long as you cap their bandwith you wont have to worry about the traffic causing you or other neighbors problems.
Just a thought.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Unlikely to be legal (Score:2, Insightful)
I am not sure what you mean by a "property boundary" in this context. The legal context refers to the boundary between one title and another
I used to be involved in setting up WAN's along freeways for traffic monitoring purposes. We got away with laying our own fibre cable because the freeway alignment way all on one title.
I have heard of a guy who owned two shops side by side. He ran an intercom circuit between the two shops, which is technically illegal here. Not that anybody cared. But if you start doing wi-fi to your neighbours houses, there is a chance that somebody will start to pay attention
Don't do it (Score:3, Insightful)
It's called good will (Score:4, Insightful)
An example from my own experience. My "day job" is as an emergency physician... and that's what pays the bills. However, computers have been a life-long interest of mine, and I am fairly adept with them. It's a great hobby.
As a side benefit, my hobby gives me something to trade... my nurses and ancillary personnel are forever bringing me broken/virus-ridden computers that I fix for them for nothing. (sometimes it's as simple as dropping in a knoppix CD and running a virus scan). You get unexpected bennies for doing such things... I've received cookies, gift certificates, other food, computer hardware, etc, etc... all for doing something that I enjoy anyway.
This not only works for my staff, but also for business associates ( for instance, drug reps who I've helped out seem to bring me samples more often, which is very helpful for my indigent patients). I've set up networks and wireless hotspots for other physicians, and I'm also the unofficial IT go-to guy for them. Keeping the medical staff happy takes us back to "good will," and has a direct effect on my job security (if the CEO of the hospital decides to replace the ER group, which includes me, a hue-and-cry from the other physicians can save my job).
It's all about making yourself valuable to other people... it creates "good will," which can pay off in all sorts of unexpected ways. Don't go into it expecting a big return, because people can often sense false altruism... but never underestimate what that good will can do.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:3, Insightful)
'Struth. Especially at the poverty level, there's a *lot* of that going on. I've been working with a very-low-income couple through our church, and I now find myself with a dozen fresh brown eggs every now and again, which they get from a neighbor in exchange for lawn work, and which I get "in exchange" for providing rides. And my van gets worked on gratis, and things like that. Pretty much, you do what you have to to get by, and precious-and-rare cash is reserved for use outside the informal network (since the bank won't take eggs as a mortgage payment, oddly enough). And there seems to be an interesting ethic of generosity, too, at that level... if these people could afford snowblowers, they *would* take care of your driveway, I have no doubt.
Re:Is it really worth the trouble? (Score:3, Insightful)
My $0.016 (it's canadian money):
One of my old great friends from high school asked me to get a ticket for him too for a concert. I was a poor student, but i figured it was no problem to drop $40 for his ticket knowing he'd pay me back as soon as he could. But instead, even after i told him multiple times that i needed the cash i would still see him going out drinking or coming home with a 2-4 of beer(which cost $20-something each) for MONTHS. He had enough money to spend lots of money on booze, movies, etc, but couldn't bother to pay me back. He needed the money for beer, but i needed the money for food. After not really bothing to speak to him anymore, he paid me back years later and apologized for taking so long to pay me back. It's now years later again. We still see each other at some function where an old high school buddy has a party or something. He is a good man in many ways, but I still feel saddened that our friendship became damaged by something uncovered by a pawltry $40. I didn't even really care about the money as much as i cared about his lack of concern for my welfare when i loaned my resources to him..
On a happier note, once when i first lived in Hawai'i, my neighbor would loan me his bike to get groceries (neither of us had a car) or he took me fishing down to the lagoon (on the apt complex propery) with him, and he showed me where 7-11 was on the first night i showed up (i needed to buy toilet paper, etc. Lesson #1: When you move to a new town, pack toilet paper in your carrying luggage for the trip). Every occasion he and i were out together, he moaned about not having any money to the point where it was obvious that he was fishing for me to say "i could lend you some, how much do you need?", but i wanted him to actually ask me for it rather than try and get me to offer it. That way, it was much clearer that i wanted it back. A non-working period before i moved there had cleaned out my account and i was living at the edge of my money again, so i couldn't afford to give him the money. After about 2 weeks, he came to me with a story about his girlfriend needed some medication and he had to secretly ask me for $20 to buy it for her. He said I couldn't say anything to her because he didn't want her to know he was borrowing money for her medicine, because then she'd refuse to let him buy it and she'd just be sick. "Wow," i thought, "for $20 I'd love to see if this story is actually true." I had just been paid. So, I said "sure, no problem man. I'll come with you to the phramacy too, `cause i have to go pick up something there, myself." His face showed that he didn't think this was the greatest idea, but he was mainly focussed on that i had agreed to give him the $20 when we got to the store with the pharmacy (it was a local supermarket-type). We got to the supermarket, i gave him the $20 as we were walking in, and then we parted ways. Thirty seconds later i saw him going through the checkout buying cigarettes for $13. I stopped and looked at him quizzically while thinking "You ask me for $20 for medicine for your girlfriend, and then you spend $13 of it on smokes?" When I hadn't said anything, he angrily blurted out "Well, i need some fucking smokes too, don't I?".
After that he avoided me and I never saw that guy close up again before i moved away almost a year later.
Lesson #2: If you loan a man money and you never see him again, that's money well spent.