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Savebetamax.org National Call-in Day 249

Rinisari writes "Savebetamax.org, a project of Downhill Battle, has set up a national call-in day for September 14th. They ask that on that day, each person signed up call a specific congressperson about the INDUCE act in an effort to keep a steady stream of calls all day. The "Save Betamax" nomenclature comes from the fact that the INDUCE act could reverse the decision in the 1984 Sony v. Universal case regarding Sony's Betamax VTRs and copying of copyrighted movies."
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Savebetamax.org National Call-in Day

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  • by Silverlancer ( 786390 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:17PM (#10231045)
    Considering what the RIAA is doing, music, movie, and other media companies shouldn't be given any privledges at all, nevermind the ability to veto technologies because they don't like them...
  • Re:Finally! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by i love pineapples ( 742841 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:18PM (#10231049) Homepage
    A chance to slashdot congress!

    Well, just think... I know not everyone here on /. is an American, but if we can take a server down, we're very likely to get somebody in Congress's attention.
  • Wrong! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BalorTFL ( 766196 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:19PM (#10231058)
    This is perhaps one of the most important legal battles in this area for quite a while. If the Betamax decision is overturned, it will be an enormous setback to proponents of fair use. As for the INDUCE act? Not only is it full of ridiculously vague wording, but it boggles the mind in terms of the rights it would take away. If it passes, things could change in a big way . . . and not for the good of the people, but for the good of the big corporations backing it.
  • by Rageon ( 522706 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:19PM (#10231060)
    Call me crazy, but wouldn't it have been usefull to have listed the time zone the assigned time is for? You think that might come in handy for something like this.
  • Re:Uhhh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LostCluster ( 625375 ) * on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:20PM (#10231069)
    We have to admire Betamax. It died way too young... but without what it did at the Supreme Court, VHS and DVRs might not be considered "fair use" and therefore might not have even been born.
  • It's hard to fight (Score:4, Insightful)

    by thewldisntenuff ( 778302 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:22PM (#10231083) Homepage
    800,000 geeks vs $800,000 (campaign donations?)

    It's be great if it'd work, but it's hard to beat the money of the big corporations....The more I read the news, the more I see the big boys on the hill getting in on this....

    Scary stuff it is...
  • by atrader42 ( 687933 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:22PM (#10231085)
    And this, boys and girls, is why we at least read the description of the article, even if we don't RTFA. We're trying to save the right to fair use on media, not trying to save the abandoned video format.
  • by i love pineapples ( 742841 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:26PM (#10231111) Homepage
    Wouldn't it be better to spread it out over a long period of time, otherwise they will know it is an organised compaign and will just disregard the calls?

    I agree; Correct me if I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how calling a politican works, but if 1,000 people call Mr./Ms. Senator in a day, whoever records these types of calls will probably end up becoming annoyed/overloaded/whatever and is likely to dismiss the high volume... If the 1,000 calls are made over, say, a few months' time, wouldn't it be more likely that each call is recorded and reported?
  • by LostCluster ( 625375 ) * on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:27PM (#10231114)
    If Congress was actually in session, it might cause congresscritters to talk about the fact that their office phone people are getting overloaded.

    Of course, annoying a congresscritter's staff is a good way to NOT get whatever you want. Staff members sometimes have the critical influence over the congresscritter they work for on technical issues they don't understand.
  • Intent of the law (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:31PM (#10231139)
    I hear alot of people claiming that the intent of the law is only to go after so called bad actors, and will not be used against VCR makers or computer makers. What those people forget is that in court, the intent of the law doesn't matter, only the actual wording. Anyone using the intent of the law as a defense in court will lose and possibly be laughed out of court. That means this law will be used to sue Apple, Intel, IBM, and Microsoft for making general purpose computing hardware. Even with the new wording, the EFF mock complaint against the ipod is still valid, as apple could have used "reasonable measures" such as only allowing the ipod to play DRM encoded files and have Itunes verify the CD is a pressed CD and not burned before allowing any ripping. The same applies to general purpose computers, which could have been locked down like the Xbox to only run OSes and software that use strong DRM and require checking with central servers before a document or whatever can be transfered (to prevent a user from retyping a copyrighted work like a book by hand). Keep in mind no one intended the DMCA to be used against third party printer cartriges, but it was.
  • Re:Wrong! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:37PM (#10231180)
    Get real. The real constituents of Congress are the rich and powerful mafi^H I mean "entrepreneurs". Don't think for a moment that calling or writing your congressmen will do any good. You see, most congressmen are businessmen, or at least have strong ties with businessmen. As consumers, they share the pain of the laws they pass. Writing to them will tell them what they already know. Unlike you, they will gain financially by passing these laws. If they are convinced that passing stricter copyright enforcement laws will make them (indirectly) rich there's nothing your little letter will do. That's the truth, plain and simple.

    Happy 9/11!
  • by dr_skipper ( 581180 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:37PM (#10231181)
    Man, the US... Land of the free.

    I'm not too worried, I live in Canada. It's a little better here.

    Maybe Canada will have to occupy the US soon to liberate it. =P

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:37PM (#10231185)
    By "publicise", do you mean, "I modded up a comment I posted as Anonymous Coward?"
  • cut it out, guys.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by peculiarmethod ( 301094 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:38PM (#10231192) Journal
    You know.. if we keep up this annoying nonsense of protesting to our elected leaders via the phone, they're gonna include the telephone as a weapon of mass destruction in the newest Patriot Act. _Then_ what are we gonna do? I suppose we could take to the streets.. then that will be made an act against the state. You see my point. We should just forget it all, and go back to our T.V.'s.
  • Re:RTFA and blurb (Score:3, Insightful)

    by buford_tannen ( 555867 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:47PM (#10231241)
    It would be madness if Hollywood et al got their way, if only because as the article stated, Hollywood benefitted enourmously from sales of VCR.

    Yes, it would be madness. But Hollywood doesn't care.

    Now it is possible for them to sell read-only playback devices (such as the DVD) and if they ban all DVD-R, CD-R (+/-RW etc etc) then it won't affect their bottom line in the least. They can still profit from home videos that people can still play, but no one can record anything, except the organized criminals with their shops full of equipment... and people with legacy equipment. And once NTSC and PAL have been replaced by newer digital formats, that legacy equipment will become mostly useless. Hollywood would like nothing better.

    You better stand up for your rights, or they're gonna kick you in the scrote.

    Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen
  • by jeffkjo1 ( 663413 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:49PM (#10231258) Homepage
    800,000 geeks vs $800,000 (campaign donations?)

    It'd be great if it'd work, but it's hard to beat the money of the big corporations....The more I read the news, the more I see the big boys on the hill getting in on this....


    Ask any politician which he would prefer: 1000 voters going to the polls, or $10,000 (extra '0'.) You'd be hard pressed to find one that would take the money. Interest groups for corporations hold power, but there aren't 1000 Jack Valenti's in each and every district to vote for Congressman X.
  • Lost Cause (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @08:50PM (#10231261) Homepage Journal
    While I also support our 'data rights', this is a lost cause at this point. Its over, and we have lost.

    Congress does *not* give a damn about the citizens, they are only concerned about the people that line their pocketbooks ( i.e. the 'media' and other large corporations ).

    The very structure of this country has changed, and the citizens are going to be mowed over.

    Fight it all you want, but id rather pick battles that aren't lost already.

    The 2nd revolution is long over due, before the "American experiment" fails, and its remains fall into hardcore socialism.
  • by Virtuoso(ViP) ( 812450 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:01PM (#10231325)
    Maybe because the congressmen are supposed to represent the people who elected them and not the people who bribe them?

    -Virt
  • by peculiarmethod ( 301094 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:05PM (#10231350) Journal
    i don't mind burning a few points.. I think we always need a little reminder that we're at war for our rights. Otherwise it wouldn't make headlines so often. We seriously need to all activate and make the phone calls that we believe in. And _that_ is no joke.
  • by Gentlewhisper ( 759800 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:05PM (#10231353)
    Well, let's just say that hollywood only has tunnel vision and can't see any potential for growth beyond their current business models.

    That was why they sued sony back then, they were scared shitless by the prospects of their property being stolen!

    Unfortunately for them, they lost, but even then they still managed to get a new cash cow out of it. Home videos.

    But with the coming of DVDs, they decided, "hey, we needed home videos no more, now that we got these new high tech media like DVDs and CDs that can only be pressed at the factory, why not we make all recording mediums illegal eh"

    And if this law passes, the implications are powerful. With CDRs, DVDRs, videos, cassettes, maybe even video cameras all outlawed? Guess who are the only ones with access to recording equipment?

    Just because they produce some lousy stinking movies doesn't mean they produce ALL the material in the whole wide world. What about people making home videos of little nelly celebrating her first birthday? Or can you imagine needing to procure a license from hollywood in the future just so you can make a video recording of big nelly's wedding?

    No good would come out of this man.. no good at all..
  • Re:Finally! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by tftp ( 111690 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:10PM (#10231374) Homepage
    But that "somebody" will be not a senator, but just a lowly sysadmin. And that sysadmin will not even report the problem upstream because then he will be blamed for inadequate maintenance and configuration...
  • by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:22PM (#10231437) Journal

    Honestly, could they come up with a worse name? (Well yeah, now that I think about it, I guess they could. But still.)

    The names (downhill battle, save betamax, etc.) almost sound like they're trying to turn people off to their cause--which, by the way, I agree with. Why couldn't they call it "Fair use" or "Save our constitutional rights from corporate greed!" or something.

    Even "File swappers for truth" or "ShareOn.org" (both of which suck) would be better names than what they're using.

    -- MarkusQ

  • by i love pineapples ( 742841 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:31PM (#10231484) Homepage
    If they all come at once, it's relatively easy to notice that there is strong support for an issue - you've been dealing with people who care about it all day.

    True, if the phone calls are few and far between. If the phones are ringing off the hooks for days, then maybe the congressperson might take notice, but wouldn't a single day of calls be forgotten after weeks of relative silence? I'd think a steady stream of daily calls would be much more memorable, and much less likely leave a negative impression. Remember that the person answering the phone is probably some underpaid staff, and as another poster said, it's bad idea to piss off the congressperson's staff.
  • by Adam9 ( 93947 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:41PM (#10231542) Journal
    This is the attitude that allows them to think that we don't give a damn. I bet you don't even vote in the general election either.
  • by hotspotbloc ( 767418 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:54PM (#10231595) Homepage Journal
    Been registered since I was eighteen and haven't missed a federal election yet. Even in the military I made sure to vote.

    The problem is the facts are the facts. Check out opensecrets.org [opensecrets.org], put in your Rep's name or any of the backers of the DMCA or INDUCE and look where their money comes from. Until real campaign finance reform is passed, like only voters can contribute (No PACs, unions or churches) I feel the system will never be fixed.

    What can I say but "Prove me wrong!" (To quote Seymour Skinner).

  • by squatex ( 765966 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @09:55PM (#10231597)
    Its just something Ive been curious about, but how far would they go with this act? Would external hard drives become illegal? usb memory sticks? the internet itself? This legislation seems so broad, that it seems they could ban just about any device on a whim. Jesus, I gotta move.
  • by mikeloader ( 590119 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @10:15PM (#10231720)
    You do realize that in Canada we allow you to copy but then we tax the media to death to protect the people who might be hurt if you were to copy. So enjoy copying onto your tapes and discs and enjoy paying the taxes to subsidize Canadian artists. I'll probably flamed for this, but I don't need the right to make backup copies of my DVDs. On the off chance that a DVD or CD breaks, it's cheaper and less work to just buy another than to make copies of hundreds of discs. I'd rather have copy protection built in than subsidize artists. I have the worst of both worlds. I refuse to copy something I don't own and I have to pay extra taxes for thsoe who do.
  • by westlake ( 615356 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @11:04PM (#10232053)
    800,000 geeks vs $800,000 (campaign donations?)

    800,000 Geeks = 1839 Geeks per Congessional District. Assumming 3% of Geeks heed this call to arms, which I doubt, that is 51 calls per district. I've seen more signatures on a petition to replace a village traffic light.

  • Nuke the Whales (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @11:16PM (#10232103) Homepage Journal
    At least they've reserved the right to regroup under a good name if they fail. No one wants to "save Betamax" - everyone thinks of Betamax as a loser, especially if they know that it was technically superior to the winner, VHS. Political success depends on popularity and positive associations, even when you're right. Next time they can call it "SaveTaping.com", even though it will have little "tape" in the future.

    "ew, Beta" - Homer Simpson
  • by chefmonkey ( 140671 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @11:22PM (#10232140)
    A lot of that depends on how much you care about entertainment -- movies, music, and television shows -- produced in the US. If you don't, the most you will probably notice is a wave of electronics touting "DRM Free!" like the region free DVD players available all over the continent.

    On the other hand, if you do care about any US-produced entertainment, it will probably result in crippled media -- crap like DVDs that expire 24 hours after you first watch them, a blackout on new US TV shows until your government passes laws that keep its citizens from recording them off the air, and CDs that you can't transfer to your iPod or similar devices.

  • by metalhed77 ( 250273 ) <`andrewvc' `at' `gmail.com'> on Sunday September 12, 2004 @11:26PM (#10232160) Homepage
    The previous plan may have been stupid, but this one actually makes some sense. Maybe it won't succeed, but it's a damn good effort and it at least gives the ordinary guy like me a chance to participate.
  • Re:Finally! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jah-Wren Ryel ( 80510 ) on Sunday September 12, 2004 @11:28PM (#10232173)
    The movie/music industry is big, but it doesn't hold a candle to the tech/consumer electronics industries in CA.

    I suspect that part of the problem is that the copyright cartel controls 90+% of the 'official' information flow - television, radio, print even billboards. This puts them in a position to have a huge effect on public and private opinion, something that few other industries are able to do and the copyright cartel gets gets it effectively for free.
  • Until... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Trolling4Dollars ( 627073 ) on Monday September 13, 2004 @01:19AM (#10232682) Journal
    ...people are heavily penalized for piracy and thier awareness raised, this kind of effort will not attract much attention. The fact is that Joe Average out there actually believes it's OK to install the copy of Windows XP that came with their laptop on another box because they don't plant to use XP on the laptop. Or, she thinks it's OK to download a game ROM to play on MAME as long as it's deleted in 24 hours. Or he believes that installing and trading warez is OK as long as you don't get caught. All of these people are wrong.
    I think that if the penalties for doing anything like the above were made much steeper and the enforcement much stricter, then people would really be aware of the problem and would have more understanding of why the betamax situation is important. Unfortunately, their ignorance makes them think that all the warez and "free music" they get from the net and all the illigit software they install falls under the same umbrella as VHS tapes and TV. And since THAT'S always going to be legal, in their minds, there's nothing to worry about. They don't eve "get" the problem. But what do you expect from Joe and Jane AOLer?
    Things have been moving in this direction for quite some time now. Some people out there believe that everything needs to be done for a fee and they've got hold of the steering wheel right now. This is why it's important to support alternatives that are still free (beer and speech). As long as people like me (those who believe in doing some things for free in both senses) there will always be a way out. This whole betamax thing is just an extension of this battle. We were given the right to copy decades ago and now they want to take that right away so that they can take money for something that was previously free.
    Peronally, I abide by the rules of these companies. If I want or need software and there is no free alternative, I buy it. If I want to watch a movie, I go to the theater, or rent the video. If I REALLY like it, then I buy the VHS or DVD from a used source. If I like a musician or band, I buy the CD and rip it to Ogg Vorbis for my own personal listening. I do not share what is not mine to share. I respect the wishes of these companies. But... wherever there is a free alternative that is legal and does not go against these businesses, I choose the alternative.
    This is why I run free OSes at home with only one machine running Windows XP Pro. This is why if you were to compare my Ogg Vorbis collection with every CD I own, you would see that there is not a single Vorbis file that doesn't have a matching disc. If you look through my library of MPEG files, you would see that I own every VHS they were transferred from or they are from sources on the net that are authorized to freely distribute.
    Our country is in a fucked up state thanks to the greed of the corporate swine. But things will change once Joe and Jane Average see how little they are allowed to do. ONe she sees that she can't listen to her DRM laced audio file on any machine she wants to without having to pay for duplicate licenses... and once he sees that he can only watch the movei he downloaded for five days and needs to pay for another license to watch again... and once they both run into the situation where they can't let their inlaws borrow the new movie over the weekend because it's only authorized to play on their machine. Then, and only then will Joe and Jane Average "get it". Unfortunately for them, it will be too late and there won't be anything they can do about it. Unless they want to unplug and stop watching mainstream stuff. But you and I both know that that will happen when hell freezes over. Instead Joe and Jane will continue to pour THEIR rightfully earned cash into the pockets of uncreative executives who
    know nothing about creativity or artistry. The only thing Joe and Jane will do is gripe about how expensive life has suddenly become because of all the bills they have to pay. The TV bill, the music service bill, the satellite radio bill, the internet bill, the internet movie rental bill, the TiVO bill, etc... And people like me will be shaking our heads thinking, "we told you so".
  • Re:Finally! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 13, 2004 @02:54AM (#10233107)

    I wrote (mostly email, some snail) to pretty much every member of the Senate Judiciary Committee [senate.gov] re: INDUCE a couple months ago. The only reply I've received has been from Sen. Feinstein [senate.gov]. I live in NY, so Hillary and Schumer ignoring me is f'd up. Feinstein sent me back a form letter thanking me for my thoughts on "music file-sharing." Even though her letter did not address any of my points or even acknowledge whether I was pro or con on file-sharing, she "will keep [my] thoughts in mind should [INDUCE] come up in the Committee."

    She believes "the protection of IP rights is vital to a flourishing economy, esp. in CA." And that "we must work to prevent the creation of digital copies of copyrighted works that can be illegally distributed throughout the world." Um Dianne, INDUCE doesn't do that. It's a cash payout to your big donors.

    If I have any further comments or questions, I should "feel free" to contact her DC office at (202) 224-3841.

    INDUCE, still wallowing in the Judiciary Committee, is now called "Inducing Infringements of Copyrights Act of 2004" and is still called S 2560. So if you call, refer to it by number or the new name.

    Make one or two points max per call. You can call again.

    Emphasize that you are against S 2560.

    If you're from the Senator's home state, mention it and say that you vote. It should theoretically make a difference.

  • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Monday September 13, 2004 @03:59AM (#10233333) Homepage
    The difference between Betamax and P2P is the disparity between legal and illegal uses. Think of VCRs, almost everyone has one and uses it mostly for legal purposes. However, a good chunk of the traffic on P2P networks involves illegal distribution of copyrighted materials.

    (1) Under the Betamax ruling there is in fact no legal difference. Both are legal.
    (2) Attempting to apply your rule is a legal absurdity, as I'll explain.

    You are erroneously looking at it restrospectively (backwards in time) rather than prospectively (forwards in time).

    The proper question is if I invent a new and never before imagined product, can I legally bring that product to market and make millions? Or would I be legally liable and sued into bankruptcy if I brought it to market? What does the law say? How do I decide whether and can and should do so?

    Under the Betamax ruling I am perfectly free to bring that product to market and make millions if it has "substantial non-infringing uses". I can do so if it a legitimate product with legitimate use. It is not my fault if someone uses my perfectly legitimate spoon to commit murder. It is not my fault if two of my first three customers use my perfectly legitimate spoon to commit murders.

    Under your proposed rule I would need to have a magic crystal ball and to predict what percentage of customers would use my never-before-seen product (and thus unpredictable and evolving product) the way it was intended, and what percentage would use it improperly. Not only that, but what percentages do you propose makes for a legitmate and profitable product and what percentages makes for an illegitimate and sue-me-into-oblivion prohibited product? 25%? 50%? 75%? And if my best guess at that future percentage is close to the cut-off, and I supposed to gamble at making millions or being sued into bankruptcy? And what if that usage percentage drifts around over time? Does my product randomly flip-flop between legal and illegal? Some random weeks I can be sued into oblivion, but other random weeks and other cases the judge tosses out any suits against me? Also according to your suggestion, if the product slightly exceeds that "magic percentage" then you would be unfairly depriving the other "legitimate" users of the right to make their perfectly legal and legitimate use.

    If I were the first to come up with the VCR and P2P, and first did so today, I could quite reasonably guess that the most common use for VCR's would be for people to make multiple tapes for each other, possibly even organizing some sort of infringing tape clubs. Based on that guess I would expect to be sued into oblivion, and thus not intruduce my product. The movie industry would then be making $ZERO from tapes and tape rentals, rather than earning more from VCR's than they do from theaters as they do now.

    And being the first to come up some form of P2P, some never before explored idea, I could quite easily imagine that the most common use would be for bands to self-publish their own music. Perhaps I myself am in a band and that was exactly my intention in creating it, and thus obviously the only usage that occured to me. In that case I would release my product with perfectly good intentions and apparently in full compliance with the law. However I would then unexpectedly and unjustly get sued into oblivion when "too many" people began using my product in a way I never intended, a way I never even imagined.

    No, what you sugest makes for absurd, unjust, and worst of all unpredictable law.

    -
  • by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Monday September 13, 2004 @04:28AM (#10233408) Journal
    I completely agree with you.

    I can imagine the average Senator's response: why do I care about saving an obsolete type of VCR?

    It should be called: "Save the VCR day"h, or something similar that makes it clear that the problem is far wider than Sony Betamax VCRs.
  • by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Monday September 13, 2004 @05:43AM (#10233583) Homepage Journal
    Well, it was most certainly a joke. However, in this world that's quickly turning into a libertarian dream (i.e. a nightmare for the rest of us) of uncontrolled capitalism and neo-feudalism where consumers play the role of serfs, it's kind of starting to make sense.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see that in a decade being a congressman or an MP will be officially regarded as just another profession in the same way as being a doctor or a lawyer is. They'll charge a fee for their services and the more you pay the more you'll get.

  • by slaad ( 589282 ) on Monday September 13, 2004 @09:56AM (#10234981)
    Joke? what are you talking abo.. Holy shit, you're one of them. You're in on it too. (PS, please no insightful mods :) )

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