New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled 1009
no_demons writes "Apple have just announced the new, completely dual-processor PowerMac G5 lineup. The models all sport an 8x SuperDrive, whilst new the dual-2.5GHz model also features an 'innovative liquid cooled heat sink,' available in July."
Re:Bastards (Score:3, Informative)
There's the upgrade process I've been through, btw. Has a full gig of RAM. Waiting for some downtown to clock the FSB up to 133 to match the RAM.
Meh. I still want my G5!
how much quieter? (Score:3, Informative)
If I recall my log scales correctly, "two times quieter" would equal 3db quieter. Not exactly revolutionary, but a step in the right direction.
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)
But between two otherwise identical G5 chips, it can be assumed the 2.5GHz one will go faster than a 2GHz one. It's essentially the same chip, just running faster.
-N
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Uh... (Score:1, Informative)
I think it's just a demonstration of the basic principles of water cooling, not an actual in-use G5.
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)
2) Fast video cards are nice, but if I want a gaming machine I'll get a PS2.
3) Yes, only 256MB of RAM on the 1.8GHz. You need more, buy it from somewhere else. Apple overprices their RAM
The real development here is the liquid cooling. It's a big step forward, because this means that they might be able to put faster processors into the Powerbooks, and they'll be ready for 3GHz and faster processors once IBM overcomes the Voodoo Curse.
I'm a little disappointed, but since I have to save for a wedding, I'm kind of glad they're waiting to release the dual 3GHz. It will be easier to convince my future wife that we need it when we aren't dropping $5000 next week for a payment.
Re:What a cool machine! (Score:5, Informative)
logarithmic scale (Score:4, Informative)
So before we all drop to our knees on this one, lets consider the physics.
One thing about Apple liquid cooling... (Score:5, Informative)
(They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )
Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available [ibm.com].
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Re:PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG! (Score:3, Informative)
Adding more Drives....hmmm
Well there is the firewire route, last time I checked fw800 could handle full DV...
then there is the fiber channel BTO option with an Xraid, I think 2Gb/s of drive bandwidth will do just fine too.
If you want to go oldschool you could also add one of those newfangled SCSI U320 cards which would also do a pretty good job with DV as well.
So I guess the answer to your question is a resonding yes. Since you do (very) high end work then you should be using a very high end storage system like one of the above. If you are a professional and need high bandwidth you shouldn't be relying on apples software raid anyway. But thats just my two cents.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
>
Noise level (bels, often referred to in tenths of bels, or decibels) is a logarithmic measurement, similar to the Richter scale. The number of bels for a given ratio of power levels is calculated by taking the logarithm, to the base 10, of the ratio.So this is actually a reduction of just over three decibels. Doesn't sound like much, but it really is twice as quiet. Gives you more respect for the 20db case fans, eh?
Being productive? (Score:3, Informative)
Evolutionary, Not Revolutionary (Score:2, Informative)
I would bet that 99% of us can't name one product from the HP lineup, but can name off the PowerMac, PowerBook, iMac, iPod, iTunes, iBook, etc. even though most of us don't own one and are far more likely to encounter an HP anywhere in the real world. I rarely see tv ads for Apple, and it's even more rare for me to meet another Apple user in the world (ONCE at Starbucks and once at Future Shop) but I read about Apples daily on Slashdot. We are all well acquainted with them due to our exposure here. I have no problem with that; it's better than Windows getting exposure, if only because we need more diversity, but I do have minor doubts as to the editorial discretion which leads to most Apple stories making the front page as well as their subsection.
Read into this what you will, but if I were HP or Dell, I'd start submitting articles to Slashdot. It's free publicity with a large section of the computer-buying public, and it doesn't seem hard to spin a typical product announcement into a "techie" story that would get accepted as News by the editors.
Re:PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG! (Score:5, Informative)
internal drives in the computer are system drives.
leave the stack of external fiberchannel/scsi drives as the media drives in the raid array.
works great for AVID when dealing with HD or digitalcinema.
and I prefer that those 15Krpm drives be external... we have had to RMA 2 of them already this year for failures/ excessive noise from 2 different AVID suites here in the office.
External media drives are the only way to go.
Re:how much quieter? (Score:3, Informative)
Thats why volume controls work logarithmic.
Jeroen
Re:Liquid Cooling And MORE... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why PCI-X? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Graphics cards...are important (Score:5, Informative)
GL does have a couple 2D Drawing modes, GL_ORTHO, for instance, and cards hardware accelerate them. How do you think games draw their pretty little GUI's and menus and whatnot?
Interestingly enough, nobody's ever developed a really good benchmark for cards that can accurately compare card performances drawing to ortho's. Maybe 3DMark should include a test like this. I imagine that raw fill rate has the biggest impact here, but who knows what kind of crazy optimizations card manufacturers might have in there to help/hurt the 2D OpenGL performance in favor of the 3D.
Re: Stock Liquid cooling? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)
SPEC.ORG doesnt have any recent PowerPC benchmarks, but looking at historical bechmarks (Specint95 on 500Mhz processors) PowerPC has about a 20% higher score than a pentium of the same Mhz.
I would guess this advantage has increased as PowerPC pipelining and paralellism have improved dramatically since then.
So a 2.5 GHz PowerPC should be able to crunch numbers better than a 3 GHz Intel.
The chip also has the advantage of not being constained by the 8080 architecture.
Apples just does the right thing (Score:4, Informative)
Watercooling has been around for some time but no majorplayer implemented it. I bet that two years from now this could well be standard at Dells, HPs and so on...
Re:Looks like a heatpipe (Score:2, Informative)
"Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature."
Try reading more carefully, thanks
No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)
The schematic clearly shows a closed circuit of pump driven fluid flowing past the CPUs getting heated and then flowing into a heat exchanger (takes the place of a holding tank, and is actually superior too one) with a fan blowing on it. This is exactly like a smaller version of the cooling system in a car. There is no phase change.
A heat pipe [heatpipe.com] is completly different, it is a phase change driven system, and does not involve pumping, or traditional heat exchangers.
Re:It's NOT liquid cooled. (Score:2, Informative)
If it has a pump, it's not a heat pipe.
BTW, the prior G5 models (and new lower-end models) do use heat pipes.
What's odd: no pictures of the internals of the liquid-cooled model yet.
Re:Why PCI-X? (Score:2, Informative)
PCI express is not just an AGP replacement. It is intended to completely replace PCI. PCI-X is/was a stopgap performance bump for those that needed it. PCI-e is the future.
Re:Room temp water cooling for processor #2 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Clock speed (Score:2, Informative)
blah, blah (Score:3, Informative)
viscosity of oil is pretty bad and flourinert is ok until about -40 degrees.
or you can, i don't know, buy liquid cooled system like ValuStar TZ [121ware.com] that had liquid cooling for almost a year now? (Granted, maybe japan only)
So, can we say that MS copies off apple, but apple actually is copying off of NEC? kind of a hard fact to accept, but innovation would seem to be, erm, not so alive in the US these days...
Re:logarithmic scale (Score:5, Informative)
Double or half the power is +/- 3dB.
Re:No, it is. (Score:5, Informative)
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
I don't disagree that a heat pipe would rock for this, but it is not what is in the Mac.
Apple is Cool About Upgrading My Order (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
assuming that the new g5's work the way the current ones do in this regard (and I'm sure they do). the software overrides the hardware. if there is no software to control the speed, then it defaults to full blast.
if you install linux on a g5 then the fans all run at full because the linux people haven't decoded the fan controllers yet (or hadn't last I looked). and even with osx on it, when you turn it on, the fans blow at full for a short while until bios/osx gets loaded and takes control and brings the speed down.
so if osx crashes so hard that even low level drivers like that die, then the machine should still not overheat.
dave
Re:LOOK at the INTERNAL design (Score:4, Informative)
A PC case of similar size has maybe four external drive bays and five hard drive bays, and five PCI slots plus an AGP slot.
A PC case with similar expandability, like the Antec Aria [antec-inc.com], is much smaller. (Though the Aria doesn't have two CPUs and can't hold 8 sticks of memory.)
While the insides of most PC cases may not look neat and tidy, it's child's play to buy or build a quiet, powerful PC that never overheats no matter what the load. So while PC cases may not (in general) have air channels, I'd say they work as well as they need to (though Intel apparently disagrees, since the BTX form factor is coming and is supposed to be designed for airflow).
I don't think you could reasonably expect a mainstream manufacturer to give up the expandability for an academic increase in cooling efficiency, although Shuttle has clearly demonstrated that at least some people are willing to give up expandibility for a slick form factor.
The G5's are beautiful though; I wouldn't mind owning one.
I JUST BOUGHT ONE! (Score:2, Informative)
Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
8x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
ATI Radeon 9800 XT w/256MB DDR SDRAM
56k V.92 modem
Bluetooth Module
AirPort Extreme Card
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
Accessory kit
Estimated Total:
$3,384.58
I can't wait!
Re:Wow! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:LOOK at the INTERNAL design (Score:3, Informative)
Re:cool (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No, it is. (Score:3, Informative)
Perceived loudness is not linear! (Score:3, Informative)
Doubling the acoustic energy (in watts) does in result in a 3db measured change in SPL, but that is a barely noticeably change in the (human) perceived volume level. Our ears are not linear devices, that is the reason that differences in loudness (sound pressure level) are represented logarithmically. 1 DB is considered to be so small a change as to be imperceptible (in nearly all cases) even though it represents a significant change in absolute acoustic energy (in watts).
This points out why it is so difficult to keep things quiet, (and why this was a significant change) you must reduce the acoustic energy tenfold in order to halve the perceived loudness.
for a quick definition of sound pressure level http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE- 06/teces_06.html
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
Mobo: MSI K8T Master2-FAR $220
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
CPU1: AMD Opteron 244, Retail $330
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
DIMM1: 128MB ECC Registered DIMM $ 60
HDA1: WD800JD 7200RPM 80GB SATA $ 75
VID: GeForceFX 5200 $ 55
DVD: 8X DVD+/-RW $ 90
CASE: Lian-Li PC-V1000 $200
PWR: Antec TRUE430 $ 70
MISC: keyboard, mouse, fans, etc.$ 50
=====
total $1540
So you're talking about a system that's about $1540 pre-shipping (which would probably run close to $100). And that's with the cheapest motherboard and RAM money can buy.
The dual 1.8ghz machine with otherwise similar specs from Apple is $1999. So you're paying a premium for quality system design and support, and software.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Clock speed (Score:3, Informative)
You're absolutely right about the G4, and the problem was solved with the G5. In fact, the G5 uses the same bus as an Athlon64 which gives it a pile of bandwidth.
not plain old 970's (Score:1, Informative)
http://www.apple.com/g5processor/ibmprocess.htm
Transistors on the PowerPC G5 hold a charge to let the system make logic decisions based on whether the transistor is on or off. Using a 90nm process for even greater performance, IBM builds these devices just
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
You wouldn't get a warranty with the Opteron system, not that you get a great one with the Apple, but it's better than nothing.
OS X is definitely worth something, although if you're coming from a Linux POV you might think that OS's should be free. I'm willing to pay for some ease of use and elegance.
For my money, the Mac is a better deal, and arguably cheaper.
Apple LCD promo ends soon? (Score:5, Informative)
they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.
though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
Re:Not Much Here (Score:5, Informative)
"All-in-all, no we are not getting to 3GHz anytime soon" [macworld.com]
Re:Nothing left for Modders (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
That's true if you're only looking at the desktop side. On the laptop side, Macs have been a good deal for about the last 3 years (when the dual-USB iBooks were introduced).
yes, It is! (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, I did RTFA and see this:
This system provides a continuous flow of thermally conductive fluid that transfers heat from the processors as they work harder. The heated fluid then flows through a radiant grille, where air passing over cooling fins returns the fluid to its original temperature.
That is clearly how a heat pipe works.
Furthermore, in relation to your question to another poster:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid...
To control the flow of the fluid you would need a pump. You could put a valve in it, but that makes no sence, because a heat pipe adjusts it's own flow, passively, based on the heat load.
They did do it without a pump. And it's still a heat pipe. Heres how:
Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid and the speed of the fans based on temperature.
By adjusting the speed of the fan that blows air through the radiant grille, they can control the cooling efficiency of the radiant grille.
So with the dynamically changed airflow, which in turn changes the temperature, the result will be a change in the pressure in the area covered by radiant grille within the closed system. This will cause a change in the speed at which the fluid flows.
Hence, Mac OS X dynamically adjusts the flow of the fluid
Read it properly next time and apply some common sense... Oh wait, this is Slashdot..
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
The g5 iMacs are on schedule to be released in 2 weeks at the WWDC. Is this what you're asking for?
You know that being said, I'm not sure if I ever care if Apple's prices are cheapened or not. I mean, think of it in this analogy - I love BMWs, always have. I am making a crazy attempt to save for one which will or will not ever come to fruition. But do I want BMW to come out with a $16,000 car (mini coopers do not count) that skimps on some of the quality? No, that, my friend, is not a BMW.
Part of the price included in Apple's products is research and development for its sleek designs. I would not have it any other way.
Yeah, you're paying for the software and the "experience", but frankly, most people don't care enough to plunk down the extra cash,
I do, and have since 1993. There are many that feel the same. It's just a matter of preference, there is no "correct" computer purchase.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Informative)
Apple has by far the best warranty experience that I have ever encountered. All systems come with 90 days phone support ("I can't get OSX to do this" or "my machine is doing this") and a full year of hardware support, over the phone ("shit broke"). I have a Powerbook G4 I bought in August of last year, and the 2 times I had to call support on it (once for the screen, it was a known manufacturing issue with the 15"s at the time, the other to fix the casing that wasn't reassembled properly, just a bit loose was all, nothing major) I was on the phone for a total of less than 10 minutes, calling during "peak" times, and was on hold for less than 30 seconds before I was talking to a Mac Genious (Apple's tech people, not someone just reading off of a screen prompt). When I got off the phone, a box was on it's way to me and arrived the next day to send it in for repair, and I got the machine back a day and a half later. No computer company that I know of, except for business-grade support can match that. And Apple's AppleCare warranty, which extends phone support and hardware warranty to 3 years, is only ~$250, which is cheaper than about any level of support that anyone else offers, and for a hell of a lot better service
Re:I JUST BOUGHT ONE! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Semantics confusing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:4, Informative)
Your figures are correct for actual power output. However, a sound 10db higher, 10 times as much energy, is perceived as being only twice as loud. Each 10db increase doubles the sound volume, but increases the energy required by 10 times. That's why a really loud stereo takes so much power; to make a sound 4 times louder, it takes 100 times as much energy. 8 times as loud requires a THOUSAND times as much energy.
The reverse is true.... to cut the apparent loudness of your case fans by half, engineers have to drop the amount of generated noise by 10 times. One fourth as loud is 1/100th the original energy. So it really does give you an appreciation for a case that is 20db quieter than another.
So Apple's actual claims could be either 'energy' or 'loudness'. They say it is 'two times quieter', which I perceive as typical marketspeak bafflegab. It's hard to interpret. If the correct interpretation is 'half as loud', then the G5 is at -10db and is generating 1/10th as much sound energy. If it is 'half as much energy', then it's about 3db as you state, and would be perceived as slightly quieter.
Judging from how hard they're pushing this feature, I'm suspicious it's the former... people would be angry if their $3K computer didn't really sound half as loud.
Re:Attention to detail... (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, Terrasoft (Yellow Dog Linux) has the fan thing down. Their new 64-bit Fedora port, the inexplicably named Y-HPC [terrasoftsolutions.com], is just about ready for commercial release.
As an aside, it appears YDL is just days or a week or two from shipping Yellow Dog Linux 4. It will be KDE 3.2, X.org, RPM Package Manager 4.3, gcc 3.3, and kernel 2.6.6. The Apple hardware support has always been excellent.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)
Ummm, no. The heads are stationary relative to the airflow. They move across the platter or are stationary. They are not shaped to be aerodynamic, and actually cause a lot of air turbulence when they move.
What makes the head float over the platter is laminar flow. This is the tendency of air to stick to the platter. This creates a molecules thick layer of fast-moving air that generally spirals out from the center of the platter to the outside, turning in the direction of the platter's rotation. As this flow is faster than the surrounding air, it draws the head closer to the platter. As the head gets very close, the laminar flow slows, until equilibrium is reached and the head floats stably.
The primary reason why most hard drives cannot be used above 10,000ft is because air pressure gets low enough for tolerance limits to be reached.
The primary purpose of the vent hole is to allow the drive to equalize pressure. Variations of pressure cause the case to flex, which can affect the head alignment against the platters.
Hope this helps...
Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:3, Informative)
Consider a coordinate system fixed to an airplane wing. Immediately at the surface of the wing, the airflow is stationary with respect to the wing skin. As you move farther away from the skin, the air moves faster and faster wrt the wing skin. If you consider the coordinate system fixed to the ground, the air far from the wing is more or less stationary (ignoring wind and the like) and the air close to the wing is moving at the speed of the aircraft.
So, the heads are not stationary relative to the airflow. The air is moving more or less at the speed of the platters (in a spiral like pattern as you described). The heads fly through this (pretty high speed) airflow.
The rest of your post is pretty well spot on.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
If you buy your Apple product (Mac, iPod, monitor, whatever) at an Apple retail store and you have ANY kind of problem with it at all in the first 10 days, take it back and they're GIVE YOU ANOTHER ONE RIGHT THERE ON THE SPOT.
This has happened to me twice. The first time, I had to send my 17" Studio Display in to have the backlight repaired. I took it to my local Apple Store so they could take care of the logistics of shipping and receiving and all that poop. When it came back 2 days later, it had a scratch right in the middle of the screen. I showed it to the guy at the Genius Bar, and he handed me a brand new Studio Display right there. I took it home.
The second time, it happened to my girlfriend's PowerBook. She bought it, then after the first week noticed a problem with the graphics card. While she was at work I returned it for her, and came home with a brand new one.
You don't get that kind of service often.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
When Steve jobs first came back to Apple they had a myriad of different computers with just about everything you could want, and some stuff you didn't. The problem was, you didn't know which one to buy. There were literaly too many choices, too much differentiation.
Steve came back and wipped the whole thing and said from now on, Apple was going to do things simple, and they would do it by redesigning the line into 4 groups. Entry desktop, entry laptop, pro desktop, pro laptop. And the 4 catagories were born. iBook, iMac, PowerMac, PowerBook. Originaly each one only had 3 options, fast faster and fastest (though that has since been uped to about 4 options) and the idea was that you could just go to the store, and buy exactly what you were looking for in teh range you were looking for it. More advanced users could customize them if they so chose.
The headless g5 mini would add a whole new catagory that would need a complimenting laptop line to go with it. Further more, it would further complicate the line, as now the line between low end / entry and high end / pro would become even more blury, which is exactly what Apple wants to avoid.
Provide choices, but make the distinctions between the choices clear. It's a hell of alot easier to explain the differenced between the i series and the power series than it is to explain the differences between say the dell dimensions
I suggest refurb (Score:2, Informative)
This will be my third refurb purchase from Apple. My first two were a 12" Powerbook and a 20GB iPod. I've been very happy with both (althought the iPod battery life has degraded a bit after a year). Apple refurbs have all exterior components replaced, so they at least appear brand new. They also have the same 1 year warranty as new products. If you are paranoid you can also purchase applecare contracts for refurbed items.
I highly recommend purchasing refurbed Apple products if you want significant savings off the retail price.
I saved:
iPod ($400 retail - $280 refurb) = $120
12"PB ($1600 retail - $1200 refurb) = $400
G5 ($2500 retail - $2000 refurb) = $500
So then, so far I have saved $1,020 by purchasing refurbished Apple products rather than buying new.