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New PowerMac G5s: Up to 2.5Ghz, Liquid Cooled

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  • by puregen1us (648116) <<moc.namressawxela> <ta> <xela>> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#9376070)
    Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?
    • by Geek_3.3 (768699) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:21AM (#9376131)
      Are you kidding??? No cold cathode lights? LED lit case fans?? Still in a conventional (albeit very chic) case design?? 'liquid cooling?' I spit at liquid cooling! LN2 all the way!

      Lemee see a round plexiglass SPHERE case w/ enough LED's and cold cathode lights to light up a small-to-medium sized city and enough cooling power to shatter the T1000, and THEN we can talk about 'nothing left for modders' to do... ;-)

    • by Gleng (537516) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:34AM (#9376252)
      Could always slap a Type-R sticker on the side of it.
    • by iphayd (170761) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:35AM (#9376266) Homepage Journal
      Neon lights, and cutting out the Apple and putting a window in.

      Yeah, neon lights make your computer go 20% faster.
    • by Gotung (571984) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:44AM (#9376367)
      I disagree. This is what I did to mine: http://www.buckeyemonkey.com/images/dualblue2.jpg
    • by squiggleslash (241428) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:12AM (#9376636) Homepage Journal
      Well, you could do what this guy did* [overclockers.com]...

      (* Well, ok, I've linked to page two for a reason, flip to page one after you've finished your heart attack)

    • Well, it's apparently pretty quiet. There's something for modders to work on -- they prefer their machines to sound like a VTOL aircraft landing on a swedish death metal band.
    • by AKAImBatman (238306) <akaimbatmanNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:26AM (#9376787) Homepage Journal
      Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?

      May I ask a serious question? Why mod it in the first place? I can understand that it's fun to make cases fit a "theme" (i.e. If I've got a bunch of racing memorabilia, I might want my case to have flames and exhaust pipes), but outside of that, what's the point? It's just a box. You might as well mod your dishwasher with a plexiglass window in front, and neon lights that catch the water sprays while it's running.

      Beyond that, a computer is a machine that you usually don't want to be visible. You see the screen, you see the mouse, and you see the keyboard. Put the mobo in a closet or a hole in the wall for all I care. The only thing I need it for is to insert a CDROM drive or plug in a USB device.

      (Insert comment about Real Unix Geeks keeping their machines in climate controlled rooms.) ;-)
    • by tbone1 (309237) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:00AM (#9377149) Homepage
      Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?

      Uh, use the thing?

    • by Scott Richter (776062) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:13AM (#9377307)
      Already liquid cooled, and in a cool aluminium case, enough case fans for a hovercraft. What is left to do?

      Mudflaps. With the nekkid ladies on 'em.

      What, am I the only redneck who owns a mac?

  • Bastards (Score:4, Funny)

    by numbski (515011) * <numbski@hksil[ ].net ['ver' in gap]> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#9376071) Homepage Journal
    I promised my wife I wouldn't upgrade from my 800mHz 17" iMac overclocked to 900 with dual display to a G5 until they came out with a Dual 3Ghz, and I would get the 23" HD Studio display with it.

    Now I have to wait another year.

    Bastards. :P
    • Re:Bastards (Score:3, Informative)

      by numbski (515011) *
      http://www.numbski.net/archive/journal/imac_hack/

      There's the upgrade process I've been through, btw. Has a full gig of RAM. Waiting for some downtown to clock the FSB up to 133 to match the RAM.

      Meh. I still want my G5! :(
  • Clock speed (Score:4, Interesting)

    by barcodez (580516) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#9376072)
    I thought is was widely accepted that clock speed means nothing. Would a G5 2.5 GHz be comparable to and Intel check with the same clock speed or a AMD 2400+?

    The dual thing is pretty cool for a pre-build box though...
    • Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)

      by ThogScully (589935) <neilsd@neilschelly.com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:22AM (#9376138) Homepage
      The clock speed is useless to compare different architectures or even different processor lines made by the same manufacturer. So, A G5 running at 2.5GHz can't be compared to an Athlon running at 2.5GHz on clock speed alone, for example.

      But between two otherwise identical G5 chips, it can be assumed the 2.5GHz one will go faster than a 2GHz one. It's essentially the same chip, just running faster.
      -N
      • Re:Clock speed (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Fulcrum of Evil (560260) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:01AM (#9376521)

        So, A G5 running at 2.5GHz can't be compared to an Athlon running at 2.5GHz on clock speed alone, for example.

        However, if you look at Apple's rigged demo (the photoshop test), there's almost a factor of two difference. It's probably not quite that extreme for the rest of the system, but it looks like G5s are faster than the AMD64, clock for clock. Or, they could be the same speed, but the pshop filter is multithreaded.

    • Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nine-times (778537) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:39AM (#9376306) Homepage

      Clock speed doesn't mean "nothing", it's just not the sole- or even the most meaningful- measurement of over-all system speed. People have mearely noticed that, with all the bottle-necks in a system, merely bumping up clock-speeds without improving the over-all architecture gives deminishing returns.

      What a G5 2.5 Ghz would be equivalent to in terms of Intel or AMD depends on what you're doing and how you benchmark. It really doesn't matter too much, though, unless you're trying to start a Mac vs. PC flame war. It's like comparing Apples and Oranges.

      • by nuggetman (242645) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:55AM (#9376469) Homepage
        Or Apples to Intels

        *ducks*
      • by johnpaul191 (240105) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:34AM (#9377549) Homepage
        Clock speed doesn't mean "nothing", it's just not the sole- or even the most meaningful- measurement of over-all system speed. People have mearely noticed that, with all the bottle-necks in a system, merely bumping up clock-speeds without improving the over-all architecture gives deminishing returns


        well it's also the chip's design. the Apple (and IBM/Moto) designs (and AMD to some extent) "do more work" per clock cycle. that's part of the reason some are better for some processes (though software is key too). think of it like a racecar vs a truck. a racecar revs really fast and flies, but carries one passenger. a truck revs lower but can tow a house. if you had a relay race of the two that had to transport 300 people across a distance the truck could win since it could haul everyone in one or two trips. it's the same way the G5 (or G4) tries to "do more" with every clock cycle compared to Intel just trying to go really really fast.

        it really comes down to attacking the same problem from different methods.
    • Re:Clock speed (Score:5, Informative)

      by supersnail (106701) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:00AM (#9376514)

      SPEC.ORG doesnt have any recent PowerPC benchmarks, but looking at historical bechmarks (Specint95 on 500Mhz processors) PowerPC has about a 20% higher score than a pentium of the same Mhz.

      I would guess this advantage has increased as PowerPC pipelining and paralellism have improved dramatically since then.

      So a 2.5 GHz PowerPC should be able to crunch numbers better than a 3 GHz Intel.

      The chip also has the advantage of not being constained by the 8080 architecture.

  • cool (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aixou (756713) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#9376073)
    That's great that new G5s are out, but am I the only one a little underwhelmed by the increase in proc speed? (Especially considering the "3Ghz in a year" when they were first announced).

    Anyway, sorry to be looking at the glass half-empty. :)
    • Re:cool (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cowscows (103644) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:28AM (#9376193) Journal
      I'm mostly disappointed that they still haven't announced new monitors. I don't want a sleek aluminum G5 sitting next to one of those dated looking plastic cinema displays, with a three inch border around the screen. New displays!
      • by pjcreath (513472) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:01AM (#9377166)

        Think Secret is reporting that new displays are due soon [thinksecret.com]. The new displays apparently will be DVI only -- no more ADC. (The 30" display requires 150W, which ADC couldn't handle.)

        What puzzles me is the GPUs currently in these new G5s -- they seem to be dual-head ADC+DVI. That's not terribly useful once ADC goes the way of the dodo. If you're in the market for the new displays, it might be worth holding off on the G5 a few weeks, in order to get a DVI+DVI video card.

      • by johnpaul191 (240105) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:28PM (#9378242) Homepage
        the rumor sites picked up on the LCD promo ending 2 days before WWDC (end of June) so they guessed Displays and PowerMacs maybe at the same time....
        they also noted the fine print of the promo listed display by part number, so if a metallic 23inch came out sooner, it would not qualify for the discount per say.

        though looking at the Apple site now i am only seeing a $500 off 23inch LCD with G5 purchase.... so i dont know if i am missing it of only the 23inch is on sale.
    • Re:cool (Score:5, Interesting)

      by RebelWebmaster (628941) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:45AM (#9376377)
      Well, IBM was the first to go on record as saying that 90nm was considerably more difficult to implement than they first expected. There's a lot of current leak going on, meaning wasted power, which leads to increased heat (see Intel's Prescott as a very good example). Supposedly AMD's having some 90nm issues as well now.

      I guess those issues would explain why Apple had to switch to liquid cooling for this round of systems.
    • Re:cool (Score:4, Funny)

      by russellh (547685) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:04AM (#9376553) Homepage
      You gotta love the press quotes on Apple's G5 page, like: "it's the fastest Mac I've ever used in my entire life". yeah, that SE/30 was a screamer, but this G5 toasts it, no contest.
  • by neccoant (3345) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:17AM (#9376087)
    I think the 2.5 model, with the whiz-bang cooling and new chips, is the first next-gen G5, whereas the lower models are designed to clear out old supplies. November will see the real "bump" to 2.5/2.7/3.0 all-liquid series.

    Here's a theory: The 2.5 is slated to start shipping in July, so maybe Apple is getting around the new-model-launch-delays bear? Will they announce and ship the "missing" 2.7 and 3.0 portions of the range in September, when they would have shipped anyway, even if they were announced today? "Clearing out the old machines and releasing the typical low-end 'shipping today' portion of the new model range, and keeping mum on the parts we would normally delay two months."

    That said, they are still impressive machines, save for the GPU. Also, to the first poster, the top end chips are 2.5Ghz, not 1.5...
  • Liquid Cooling (Score:5, Interesting)

    by swordboy (472941) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:18AM (#9376092) Journal
    I like the idea of liquid cooling but I also like simple systems. There's too much complexity here. So...

    I've often pondered creating a sealed aluminum case with integrated heatsink. Stick the components in and fill it with dielectric oil in order to create a huge, passive heat sink (like a big transformer or whatever). Thoughts? I almost got around to this but stopped after submerging an old hard drive in some dielectric - if you seal the breating hole, it works fine (I believe the hole is there to relieve pressure differentials caused by changes in altitude so it should be fine in a stationary location).

    Provided that the dielectric has good enough heat transfer, this should work, no?
    • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

      by Zog The Undeniable (632031) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:24AM (#9376145)
      It's been done...and more. One guy dumped all the components of his PC in a polystyrene tub full of liquid paraffin, which is pretty much what you're suggesting. However, he also stuck the evaporator of a fridge in there and got the paraffin down to stupidly low temperatures. The disadvantages: it looked crap and it smelt bad.
    • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

      by TheGavster (774657) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:36AM (#9376270) Homepage
      Actually the breathing hole in the hard drive is critical to maintaining the cushion of air that the drive heads use to float the couple of microns over the platter surface that they need. If you plug the hole, you've got a good chance of having a hard drive crash in the most literal sense of the phrase when the heads dig into the platters on boot.
      • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

        by mgoff (40215) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @12:05PM (#9377947)
        Actually the breathing hole in the hard drive is critical to maintaining the cushion of air that the drive heads use to float the couple of microns over the platter surface that they need.

        Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.
        • Re:Liquid Cooling (Score:4, Informative)

          by dex22 (239643) <plasticuser@gma i l . com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @04:20PM (#9381200) Homepage
          Reference? I don't know of any hard drive where this is the case. The only purpose of the breather hole is for pressure equalization. The heads fly due to the aerodynamics of their physical design-- just like an airplane wing.


          Ummm, no. The heads are stationary relative to the airflow. They move across the platter or are stationary. They are not shaped to be aerodynamic, and actually cause a lot of air turbulence when they move.


          What makes the head float over the platter is laminar flow. This is the tendency of air to stick to the platter. This creates a molecules thick layer of fast-moving air that generally spirals out from the center of the platter to the outside, turning in the direction of the platter's rotation. As this flow is faster than the surrounding air, it draws the head closer to the platter. As the head gets very close, the laminar flow slows, until equilibrium is reached and the head floats stably.

          The primary reason why most hard drives cannot be used above 10,000ft is because air pressure gets low enough for tolerance limits to be reached.

          The primary purpose of the vent hole is to allow the drive to equalize pressure. Variations of pressure cause the case to flex, which can affect the head alignment against the platters.


          Hope this helps...

  • by WIAKywbfatw (307557) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:18AM (#9376097) Journal
    From the Apple link:

    Each of the four thermal zones is equipped with its own dedicated, low-speed fans. Apple engineered the nine fans to spin at very low speeds for minimum acoustic output. Using 21 different sensors, Mac OS X constantly monitors component temperatures in each zone, dynamically adjusting individual fan speeds to the appropriate levels for the quietest possible operation. As a result, the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4 enclosure.

    Nine fans and 21 sensors, generating half as many decibels. Now I'm not an Apple fan-boy but that's the level of attention to detail that seperates Apple from Dell, etc.
    • by cowscows (103644) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:23AM (#9376141) Journal
      That's not attention to detail, that's just a different methodology. Not going the cheapest way possible. For attention to detail, notice the lack of cables all over the place inside the computer, or how the little capacitors and other components on the boards are colored to match the internal design. It may be silly in some ways, but when designers care enough to try and make the inside of a computer beautiful, I find that kind of comforting.
      • by SoupIsGoodFood_42 (521389) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:00AM (#9376517)
        It is attention to detail. The sound computers generate these days is oftern overlooked by most makers. "Attention to detail" isn't just limited to asthetics you know.
    • logarithmic scale (Score:4, Informative)

      by Gothmolly (148874) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:31AM (#9376222)
      Its only 3 dB less. Remember that funky math that we said we'd never use? 2x the noise = +3dB. You can get more difference than this by simply switching your ghetto case fan for a good one. Unless of course Apple MEANT 1/2 the dB, which is a meaningless number w/o a reference: 1/2 the dB of a 6dB source is 3dB, or half the volume. 1/2 the dB of a 50 dB source is more significant.

      So before we all drop to our knees on this one, lets consider the physics.
    • by Plutor (2994) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:38AM (#9376297) Homepage
      > > ...the Power Mac G5 runs two times quieter...
      > ...half as many decibels...

      Noise level (bels, often referred to in tenths of bels, or decibels) is a logarithmic measurement, similar to the Richter scale. The number of bels for a given ratio of power levels is calculated by taking the logarithm, to the base 10, of the ratio.
      b = log10(P1/P2)
      b = log10(1/2)
      b ~ -0.3010299956
      So this is actually a reduction of just over three decibels. Doesn't sound like much, but it really is twice as quiet. Gives you more respect for the 20db case fans, eh?
      • by Malor (3658) * on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @01:50PM (#9379340) Journal
        That's only partially right. You are confusing the energy being generated with the perceived loudness of a sound, which is quite different.

        Your figures are correct for actual power output. However, a sound 10db higher, 10 times as much energy, is perceived as being only twice as loud. Each 10db increase doubles the sound volume, but increases the energy required by 10 times. That's why a really loud stereo takes so much power; to make a sound 4 times louder, it takes 100 times as much energy. 8 times as loud requires a THOUSAND times as much energy.

        The reverse is true.... to cut the apparent loudness of your case fans by half, engineers have to drop the amount of generated noise by 10 times. One fourth as loud is 1/100th the original energy. So it really does give you an appreciation for a case that is 20db quieter than another.

        So Apple's actual claims could be either 'energy' or 'loudness'. They say it is 'two times quieter', which I perceive as typical marketspeak bafflegab. It's hard to interpret. If the correct interpretation is 'half as loud', then the G5 is at -10db and is generating 1/10th as much sound energy. If it is 'half as much energy', then it's about 3db as you state, and would be perceived as slightly quieter.

        Judging from how hard they're pushing this feature, I'm suspicious it's the former... people would be angry if their $3K computer didn't really sound half as loud.
  • by Chief Typist (110285) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:19AM (#9376110) Homepage
    Did anyone else notice that the lower processor on this diagram [akamai.net] doesn't appear to be turned on?

    Come on, Apple. I want purple and red water coming out of both processors!

    -ch
  • Graphics cards... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by radicalskeptic (644346) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [enotirt]> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:19AM (#9376111)
    The dual 1.8 and dual 2.0 GHz machines come with an "NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra" graphics card. Isn't that card pretty low-end (or midrange at best)? Is it just me, or should a 2,000+ dollar machine come with a decent graphics card?

    Of course, the whole point of a tower is that you can replace the card, but when you're already paying 2,500 USD, should you have to?
    • by entrox (266621) <slashdot@@@entrox...org> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:33AM (#9376238) Homepage
      Why do you need a 3D graphics monster for Logic? Or Photoshop? If you want to play games, you can also order the G5 with a Radeon 9800 XT built in.
    • by iphayd (170761) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:48AM (#9376400) Homepage Journal
      Just to let you know, you can upgrade this in the build to order options.

      Think of it this way, the target market (A graphics professional- Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator, InDesign) has no need for 3D acceleration. The NVidea card in the G5s have plenty enough power for Quartz Extreme, so they put them in.

      Now, if you are someone who would use a higher end graphics card, by all means- switch it out in the BTO.

      I do wish they would include the bluetooth module in all machines.
  • by m_chan (95943) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:20AM (#9376120) Homepage
    I doubt that the art guys checked with the science guys before illustrating the CPU cooling design [apple.com], unless that lower CPU is either A)Off or B) Magical.
  • new Display too (Score:4, Interesting)

    by patrickoehlinger (445411) <patrickoehlinger@gmx.net> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:22AM (#9376136) Homepage Journal
    There may come new Displays (20, 23 and 30 inch with the known aluminum brushed metal look) to the WWDC, as reportet here [thinksecret.com].
    Think Secret writes they may even come with DVI port.
  • Where's Steve? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by blackmonday (607916) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:26AM (#9376172) Homepage
    I'm surprised that the 2 new offerings from Apple were simply put out on the web without any Steve Jobs fanfare. I like it when Steve shows it first, he allows into his RDF. I guess overall it's not the update I was hoping for, the video card should have been upped as well.

    I think it's pretty safe to say we're gonna have an all new iMac at WWDC. It's the other upgrade everyone's been waiting for. Aluminum iMac? We'll see.

    • Re:Where's Steve? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by chia_monkey (593501) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:38AM (#9376292) Journal
      I like it when Jobs does his old "oh, and one more thing..." also. I think the WWDC will have something bigger than new G5s though. I'm guessing it will be bigger than a new iMac. With the release of AirPort Express and such, the low-fanfare announcement of the new G5s, but more importantly the setup of an entirely new division dedicated to the iPod, I'm guessing we'll see a new consumer product. You gotta love the rumors that fly around the Apple camp. I'm taking stabs at what the next unveiling will be also...but it sure is fun. New consumer product...hmmmm...
  • by daveschroeder (516195) * on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:34AM (#9376255)
    ...and multiple fans: Apple does it because they want to keep the machine as quiet as possible while still as cool as possible (as opposed to being forced to do it, lest the processor become hotter than the surface of the Sun).

    (They don't do it because the PowerPC 970 family is "so hot", either; the PowerPC 970, and the 970FX even moreso, run much cooler, and require less power, than even the newest generation PowerPC 74xx (G4) family processors: )

    Also, new PowerPC 970FX information from IBM is now available [ibm.com].
  • by sinner0423 (687266) <sinner0423NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @09:35AM (#9376262)
    ...as much as I care about the liquid cooling part. I remember liquid cooling my crappy little celeron, thinking it would never go mainstream because of my belief at the time that water + electricity = bad.

    Now, we've got liquid cooled technology backed by Apple. It's pretty sweet, considering you either have to buy a specially designed freon pumping case, or a $500 video card to reap the benefits of this kind of cooling.. Now all you've gotta do is buy a $3000 Mac.

    Sarcasm aside, I think this shows that soon, the PC's on the shelves will mostly all be using some sort of heat pipe / water cooling technology.

    I'm not a Mac fanboy, don't own one, but this really goes to show that Apple can and does set standards for personal computing. With major backing like this, it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to where everyone can be using it for a relatively cheap price. Way to go, Apple.
  • by amichalo (132545) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:06AM (#9376565)
    I'm no hardware engineer, but looking at this [akamai.net] artist rendering (akamai.net is an image host for all Apple.com images) of Apple's liquid cooling system [apple.com], I think the processors are getting different cooling.

    It would appear that the liquid passes over processor #1, then #2, then back to the heat sink to be diffused by the fan blowing over it. This would say to me that processor #2 is getting at best room temp water cooling, while proc #1 is getting cold water cooling.

    Here's my reasoning: If the heat sink with the fan blowing over it can cool the water 2X degrees, then when it is leaving the cooling system it is at Room Temp (RT) - X degrees. It passes over both processors and returns to the cooling system at RT+X degrees, where it is cooled by 2X and leaves the system at RT-X, headed for the hot processors again, follow?

    So here's the meat of it: both processors together heat the water up by 2X (see above). That means each processor heats the water by X, so when the cool water leaves, it is at temp RT-X, passes over the heat sink and it raised to (RT-X)+X=RT which then passes over the second processor and cools it to RT+X where it returns.

    So the second processor is getting room temp water cooling while the first is getting RT-X cooling. What effect will this have on the system?
  • by Lispy (136512) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @10:08AM (#9376589) Homepage
    I must say that I am impressed. I am really not a big apple fan but the company seems to do just the right thing again and again. Starting with USB on the iMac back in 1998 they made a lot of cutting edge decisions wich came into mainstream just because Apple made them successful (WiFi, Firewire, MP3 players, legal musicdownloads, their stereo-wifi-hubbie-thing, TFTs, DVD-Burners) and so on).

    Watercooling has been around for some time but no majorplayer implemented it. I bet that two years from now this could well be standard at Dells, HPs and so on...
  • by filmsmith (608221) on Wednesday June 09, 2004 @11:12AM (#9377291)
    Now with more Speed Holes!(TM)

    fs

Murphy's Law, that brash proletarian restatement of Godel's Theorem. -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

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