The Logic Behind Metric Paper Sizes 1461
Oily Pakora writes "Those of us in the United States are so used to our Letter and Legal paper sizes. We've seen the A4 paper size option in our printer trays and in printer preference menus. Metric sizes used almost everywhere in the world, save for the US and Canada. Here is an interesting article that discusses all of the aspects of metric paper. For those who enjoy a bit of math, did you know that in the Metric paper system, the height-to-width ratio of all pages is the square root of 2? This means that you can place two sheets of A4 side-by-side and they will equal an A3 sheet exactly, and two sheets of A3 will equal an A2."
Neat (Score:0, Interesting)
So then I tried the web. Not much luck there.
Called the 1-800-staples number. Asked the customer assistant for a ream of A4 paper (I'd order a box if necessary).
"A4 paper, hmmm, is that the big 11x17 stuff?"
"No, its metric size."
"Is that some kind of drafting paper?"
"No, its about the same size as letter paper."
"Oh, why don't you just use that?"
After making up some excuse about needed to product a document for a european customer, and international standards, I was transferred over to their "special needs" department, and then escalated through three levels of help there, where I finally found someone who knows more about paper than I do.
Tada, one ream of 8.27" by 11.69" paper.
Hammermill part number 10303-6. UPC 10199 00303
Pulp Numerology (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course... (Score:2, Interesting)
But the sheer cost in productivity of shifting to the metric system, when nearly every North American office and person has the SI system encoded on a near-genetic level, would be astronomical.
The US "failing to meet the expectations of the global economy" (see article) by using SI units of paper is a little extreme of a comment. Whatever it costs to deal with the differences, it would cost more to enforce unilateral mindset change - in money, time, and even more.
We'll just wait as the units slowly creep into more and more aspects of everyday life.
Then again... I work with engineers. I always see and hear these units.
Duh ! (Score:2, Interesting)
And for the anecdote about 2 sheets of A4 = 1 sheet of A3, I remember learning that in elementary school.
How is that *news* for nerds ? Metric paper sizes are here since before the oldest slashdotter was born !
Next stories : "It looks like the Persian were wrong ! Pi does not equal to (16/9) !", "New units discovered : the meter !"
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:2, Interesting)
metric will win in the end (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the metric system is like Open Source:
It's going to win in the long run -
simply because it's the logical way to go!
If you look at the evolution of things, there have always been different ways of doing stuff, but in the end one of them won - simply because it was undeniably the best way to go - and the others lost out..
Re:Side-by-sideness (Score:4, Interesting)
The DIN A formats all have the ratio of square root 2. That makes it very easy to scale stuff up or down, e.g. if you use a copy machine: copy 2 DIN A4 (= DIN A3) on one DIN A4 without messing up the margins. Cut the sheet in half and you have 2 DIN A5 pages that exactly look like the DIN A4 pages, only half the size.
American Paper is ugly (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Of course... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it would be quite painless to change to the metric system in the US. You don't have to change everything immediatly.
Letter vs A4 is not metric vs imperial. (Score:1, Interesting)
Letter is 215.9 x 279.4 mm
Legal is 215.9 x 355.6 mm
Does it matter that it's not a round number? No way! Only envelope and binder makers would care. Letter vs A4 is not an argument of metric vs imperial.
And btw, I use 11x17" all the time, which is *surprise* exactly twice the size of Letter.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Compare that with, say, the foot. 12 inches - easily divisible by 3, 4, and 6. Makes building that shit a lot easier :)
Same goes with volumes - it's easy to convert gallons to quarts to pints. You have to memorize more units (which I agree sucks), but it makes making that recepie easier when you realize you have more guests coming.
A1 through A5 (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, the whole series of metric paper sizes from A1 to A5 are made by repeatedly folding sheets in half. And the width-to-height ratio is certainly not the Golden Mean! As others have pointed out...
I used to develop software that printed things, and always had a supply of A4 paper handy so I could make sure I didn't have any paper size-related bugs lurking. If I was lucky the folks at the local office supply place would know what A4 was, but they certainly wouldn't have it (not even in Canada). So I'd wait for the next business trip to Europe and grab a package when I was there.
"Anything to declare?"
"I went to Paris and bought a package of paper."
...laura
Just as Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Call me an incorrigible geek, but that little tidbit made me giddy.
Re:The Metric System Sucks!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Not as English as you think.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Since I design things (not code), I have to ask what units they want their things in - I remember one conversation with a wholly US based company going like this:
"What units do you want the database delivered in?"
- [SARCASM BOLD] "We are a scientific company.[/SARCASM BOLD]>
"Oh, right."
They made me feel pretty stupid for asking. I'd say across the product industry it's something like 50/50 right now.
Re:Yes... it's your damn fault! (Score:4, Interesting)
So, I went out to get a metric tape measure. Couldn't find a single one in my tiny Texas town. Eventually, I went to the Internet (Amazon.com) to find it. I wanted to get a tape measure with just centimeters on it, but had to settle for one with both inches and centimeters.
Just so I'm never stuck without a metric tape measure again, I bought two of them. Cost me $25 apiece.
Signed, an American who loves the metric system, was scientifically trained with the metric system, and if made emperor of the universe would provide free metric system education to the population at government expense.
Re:And this is superior why? (Score:3, Interesting)
With cars, wheels come in several bolt patterns. In the US, 4.5" x 5 was a popular pattern. In Japan, 100mm x 5 was popular. But soon, we started seeing Japan switch to 114.3mm x 5. People started paying a premium for these "special" wheels.
That is, until everyone realized that 114.3mm is simply 4.5". Basically, the Japanese realized that there was an economy of scale to using the 4.5" bolt pattern. Obviously, they could not adopt the non-metric system of measurement so the 114.3mm x 5 pattern was borne.
Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system. (Score:5, Interesting)
Some lovely linkage:here [idler.co.uk], here [phrases.org.uk] and here [looktours.com].
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:1, Interesting)
> let's make A0 one square meter instead of using some sort of established paper size!
A0 _is_ 1 square meter.
(actually it's 0.999949 m^2)
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:2, Interesting)
Also makes weight calculation easy (Score:3, Interesting)
Another Cool Ratio (Score:5, Interesting)
This number is otherwise known as the "golden ratio", it was discovered back in classical Greece and it was known to be the most aesthetically pleasing of all ratios. The Parthenon in Athens was built so that its length and width were dictated by this ratio, it was also used by many Renaissance artists to draw the human body so it seems "perfect".
It is impossible of cause to prove mathematically that this ratio is the best looking of all irrational numbers any more than it is possible to prove mathematically who is the most attractive human, however it's endurance seems to suggest that it has some base to it. It has links with Fibonacci numbers, it also is encountered when drawing regular pentagrams and decagons.
Due to the aesthetically pleasing nature of this ratio I think it would be fairly cool to have a series of paper sizes based on this ratio for artistic uses, rather than the practical but bland "A" series or the fairly pointless American and Canadian series.
PA4 - the compromise format. (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're formatting electronic documentation (e.g. PDFs), it's useful to use the so-called PA4 format, 210 x 279 mm, mentioned in a note in the article.
PA4 PDFs print correctly on both A4 paper (with extra tall margins) and letter paper (with extra wide margins.)
IHBT. i bite. (Score:3, Interesting)
Long side / short side = ?
17/11 = 1.54545(54...)
11/8.5 = 1.29411(..)
they haven't the same shape.
you were right to post anonimously..
Postal convenience (Score:1, Interesting)
Related to this:
Assuming an envelope weighs about the same as a few sheets of similarly-sized paper, you can now guess fairly accurately how much it'll cost to post a letter printed on A4 (or A5, A3, etc.) paper without actually having to weigh it.
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:1, Interesting)
Personally, I find quarters to be the most natural way to divide things up. I wish we all used a base-4 system. In fact, the US monetary system does close to that (mix of 4 and 5), if you look at common denominations:
base:
x5 =
x5 =
x4 = 1 dollar bill
x5 = 5 dollar bill
x4 = 20 dollar bill
x5 = 100 dollar bill
etc, etc
Metric Fonts... (Score:2, Interesting)
-G
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:3, Interesting)
To me, all this transitioning seems half-hearted, since we're still raising our kids to prefer 'standard' units. If they're taught metric in schools first, then when they get to 'standard' they should immediately see it as the baneful monstrosity it is. Once they grow up, we'd finally have a public that prefers metric, and the transition would be easy.
Re:A complex way to point out simplity. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system. (Score:4, Interesting)
I followed your link to "The Idler" and that site tells a different tale about the origin of "on the wagon," quoted below:
--
"Incidentally this also is the origin of 'on the wagon', after finishing his drink from the last tavern before the gallows, the prisoner would be put 'on the wagon' for the last time, destined never to drink again before his death."
Re:Side-by-sideness (Score:3, Interesting)
Expand? No. But perhaps someone wants to copy your thesis 2-up, and that's a lot easier with metric sizes.
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:2, Interesting)
That's what has been done in the UK (as far as I know). Stuff is still being measured in miles per hour and feet and inches, but the majority of the younger generation is more aware and ready to use the metric system.
The Conservatives, however, keep making this an issue of "national identity" (?) and resist any attempts to try and make it more common.
Apparently it will make you French if you buy 33cl bottle of beer instead of a pint... <sigh>
Re:Yet another reason for the US to switch to metr (Score:3, Interesting)
Around about the time I was 13 years old, the metric came into play. Temperature was now reported in something called Celcius and milk was purchased in litres rather than quarts or gallons. Guess what, everyone, including my grandparents soon learned that 32C was hot not freezing, 16C was comfortable, 15cm of snow was not really worth getting excited about and a 5kg bag of potatoes had a few more potatoes than a 10 pound bag.
The only thing that I still find VERY confusing is the way fuel consumption is reported. Gone is the familiar Miles/Gallon where bigger is better only to be replaced by Liters/100Km where smaller is better!
I am sure there is a conspiracy or two lurking there somewhere.
Re:Side-by-sideness (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, come on. The metric system does not prevent you from confusing a liter and a kilo, and it happens often enough. People just happen to be lucky that water got defined as 1 kg/L.
And you, are, of course, correct - I won't try to justify any portion of the Imperial system other than the basic units.
1/3 of a metre is on your ruler, you have bigger problems than the Imperial system can help you with.
I could easily say if you can't remember what certain units are, you've got bigger problems as well, and if you really can't deal with fractions, you've got bigger problems also. I pointed out an advantage - pointing out that it's a weak advantage is poor. Metric is convenient because it's consistent - Imperial is convenient because it's divisible. I never suggested that Imperial was better, only that it had an advantage.
Imperial tends to be fraction-based, and metric tends to be decimal-based. Decimal-based trades ease for precision, whereas fraction-based trades precision for ease.
The biggest reason the U.S.A. doesn't use metric (Score:5, Interesting)
Recall that industrial mass production is essentially a 20th century invention, and that by the 1940's it still had not really spread beyond the U.S. and Europe. In World War II, most European industrial capacity was destroyed at one point or another, providing a clean slate to rethink standards for every industry, and to adopt logical standards with no switchover cost.
After WWII, Europe wisely went to the metric system. Developing countries wisely adopted it as well. But the U.S., with its factories intact (and now back to making cars and vacuum cleaners) was saddled (and remains cursed with) with tremendous switching costs. The expense in lost customers and supplier confusion is too great for a company in most industries to unilaterally change. And agreements to change all at once are very hard to achieve.
Empirical evidence:
Newer US major industries (e.g. semiconductors) usually work in metric
(As noted elsewhere) US science is in metric; because switchover costs are lower scientists could switch almost right away.
Well-meaning attempts to effect a switch have been ignored by industry (because of the cost)
US industries with a big international component are often metric (bicycle manufacture)
I suppose the conclusion to draw is that the US is unlikely to switch until either something destroys its industrial factories, or the "old" unswitched industries become so dwarfed by new metric ones that it is actually cheaper for them to change.
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:3, Interesting)
--
Re:A complex way to point out simplity. (Score:3, Interesting)
While a pint of beer in America *IS* smaller than a pint in the UK, that's usually alright. Because the beer in the UK *also* had more alcohol and flavor.
And chatting with a coworker about managing to drink two pints at lunch (do as the romans do, and all that), he asked me how many stones I weighed. WTF. I guess that would depend on the stone. I knew I was 18 hands tall (grew up around horses), but stones? (I now know I was 12 stones).
So, it's about 25 here in the Bay Area today. Nice to not need a coat.
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Another Cool Ratio (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:3, Interesting)
Especially when there are such informative sites [spork.org] dedicated to the use and appreciation of sporks.
Re:Drugs teach American kids the metric system. (Score:3, Interesting)
Apparently, after that, very few prisoners refused the drink.
Making fun of other countries (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Side-by-sideness (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:3, Interesting)
M/D/Y goes in the order you usually say a date in English. Hence, May 14th, 2004 -> 5/14/2004.
Maybe that's an american thing too, here in New Zealand I would say 'The 5th of May 2004', never 'May the 5th 2004', and I think most other people would too.
D/M/Y and Y-M-D make sense, the values ascend or descend in scale, but M/D/Y is just all wrong.
Re:2 x A4 = A3 (Score:3, Interesting)
I must add to this frenzy of cutlery tangents! The rounded-end knife replaced the pointy dagger-like knife at the table in the 17th century as well. Cardinal Richelieu was so disgusted by courtier's habit of picking their teeth with the pointy knives after dinner that he ordered a set of knives made with rounded ends.
Re:The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US (Score:3, Interesting)
I have noticed that people will use whatever measure they're used to, and don't like to switch between them. For instance, I have friends who will happily talk about the weather in terms of degrees Fahrenheit, but when asked how hot their CPUs run, automatically switch to Celsius.
The one interesting characteristic of Fahrenheit is that one degree is about the smallest temperature change sensible by the human body, so Fahrenheit makes sense from a day-to-day standpoint. This would change, however, if thermostats, etc. allowed you to see or set a half degree Celsius, which is slightly smaller than a degree Fahrenheit, achieving the same effect.
Re:The simplest reason A4 won't take off in the US (Score:2, Interesting)
We paid the price of conversion in favor of more efficient international co-operation. Today, we are still paying the price for you not being able to do your part. Many people operating with you need to know about these completely unnecessary imperial units. Every now and then an airplane drops from the sky because they thought they filled in gallons, a patient is killed due to an inch/cm translation error, or a mars probe goes wild.
US will need to pay the price for getting more compatible with the rest of the world. The cost of not being compatible is huge to the American industry, and getting metric is fundamental to the American economy.
We did our part. Now it is time for you to do yours. It is really rude to pull of a "it is so expensive" trick when everyone else has already paid their part.