Review: LinuxCertified LC2210 Laptop

'It's me' writes "OSNews reviews LinuxCertified's LC2210 laptop, which comes with Xandros Desktop 2.0. That laptop is meant to be 100% certified with Linux, but Xandros seemed to have problems with it (namely there is no "sleep" function, while WiFi was not as robust as users would want it). LinuxCertified said that newer distros should be able to support this laptop with no hickups. The reviewer concludes that this a great purchase, as long as you are more selective over the distro installed."

I am glad to see...

[odano]

that certified actually doesn't mean certified completely. I'm sure this will instill a lot of confidence in non-linux users going to linux.

huh?

[matticus]

He recommends the laptop "with another distribution", but doesn't actually try it with another distribution. There are no pictures of the laptop, and a very poor description of it. I smell "reviewer who got a free laptop if he would write a review but wasn't qualified to do so".

Re:Well...

[gnu-sucks]

And just to validate my statement, let me mention briefl the 'ups' of the laptop, and the 'downs':

ups:

The laptop has a pretty good, bright screen (minus one dead pixel, visible when the background is dark).

Performance is very good. In fact, I think that laptop has more sprightly response and speed than any of my other machines here. KDE's and Xandros' applications pretty much load instantly. 3D support is also preconfigured and display a flight simulator with no lag at all.

The feel and construction of the laptop is very solid overall. The keyboard's feel is also very good, I just wish the PgUp key was not just next to the BACKSPACE key...

I tried out my USB Palm device and it worked out well with any of the usb slots. Ethernet also worked very well and with no problems. I burned an ISO image with the DVD/CD-RW combo drive, which also worked fine. On board speakers did the job as expected as well.

Being a Centrino, battery life is pretty good.

ok, now the downs:

While this product is Linux-certified, the "sleep" function simply doesn't work.

Half the time the WiFi card won't initialize

When I visited the KDE control center and clicked the "monitor" preference panel, Xandros greeted me with an alert box telling me that it won't allow me to do anything

On the front of the laptop, there are four "quick launch internet buttons" for email, browsing etc, but pressing them does nothing at all. Apparently there is no driver for them or a remapping tool available on Xandros.

So basically, the battery, display, and keyboard work. As does the USB, sound, cd-burner, and presumably the firewire port. Unfortunately, the sleep function does not, nor do the included extra shortcut keys. And to top it off, the wifi gui setup appears to have some issues.

Now, these are all rather standard issues with a non-linux certified laptop. Regular hardware (video, mouse, keyboard, cdrom) works, and laptop-specific hardware (sleep, wifi pcmcia cards, funky extra keys) does not. However, with linux certification, I would expect at least sleep to work. Thats a core point of a laptop. And Wifi today is so essential to working without being plugged in, I'd rate it right up with sleep and battery life.

While this laptop does for some reason claim to be linux certified, anyone can buy an off-the-shelf compaq, ibm, toshiba, or viao and have the same experience. The only thing that makes this laptop, complete with its 'internet shortcut keys' that don't work, linux-certified is that it comes without windows.

Re:I think this is great!

[gnu-sucks]

yeah, but it might as well - four glaring internet shortcut keys are completely unsupported by the 'supported' operating system. These keys, no doubt, would work under windows, which the laptop is clearly designed for.

Of course, its nice not paying the microsoft tax on the sale though!!!

Re:Well...

[arivanov]

I would like the moderators who modded down this comment to confess if they have ever tried to run:

Retail Windows (any variety) on a Vaio or a recent Stinkpad.

There is such a thing as a windows distro. Big vendors have always gone and replaced the parts of windows that sting particularly bad with parts that more or less work. So it is in fact: which particular vendor variety of Windows are you running:

Examples:

1. Dell and Windows NT frustration - get working PCMCIA hot-plug. If you run retail - you do not.
2. Sony and Windows 2000 - get working power management. If you run retail - you do not.
3. IBM and Windows XP - get working WEP with preshared 128 bit keys and a reasonable network connection manager (that can make any connection interdependent on each other, not just dialup and execute external commands to bring connections.)

So on so forth.

Shouldn't it just work?

[TheBigOh(n)]

Everything should work out of the box or there is no point in trying to sell it. I am sorry, but if I buy something that says linux certified on it, the sleep function should work without any effort my part. Why not just hack at a new machine without the linux sticker on it myself like I have been doing all these years? Most of us linux folk get some sort of twisted pleasure out of that kind of thing anyway. Furthermore, why would a linux novice buy a machine without a working sleep function? Its one thing to sell a house or a car and say that it is an ole' fixer upper. A laptop? C' mon.

Yes it is a great step forward, but it just seems like a half-assed one to me. Call this trolling, but if linux ever hopes to gain any respect as a desktop OS, then people shouldn't be selling "linux certified" products that don't work as they should.

You said it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not as patient as I wish I was, which is a failing many share. As a result I don't want to spend spare hours I don't have just trying to get a system to do what I need it to do. No, installing Linux isn't difficult. But trying to figure out how to install additional (and often essential) stuff, especially drivers, is not easy, particularly if you're unfortunate enough to have spent the past X (meaning, too many) years of your life becoming familiar with Windows, and forgetting about something called a command line (and a very different syntax).

I know Windows pretty damn well now (which is why I'd love to switch to Linux...), and I began in the dark days of MS-DOS, but back then I had the time and the contacts to get help with it, to get going. That's not an option available to me any more, or most of those like me who want to switch after years as Windoze Lusers.

The hand-holding of knowledgable, experienced users helped me get started with computers, and from there I could start figuring things out for myself, but now I just need Linux to work. Once I can do what I need to, then maybe I can tinker and become familiar with the other, more geeky bits. But not if I'm expected or required to spend untold hours of hair-pulling and HOWTO-reading just to get the computer to actually work.

Come on Linux folk: start getting fully-working machines to market, and the rest of us will take the plunge. Or do you feel it should be the exclusive province of uber-geeks...?

Re:There is no "sleep"

[aardwolf204]

Anyway, this may be a big step forward. I hate those Windows stickers. Maybe we'll see models with Penguin stickers on them in stores in a few years so people can say 'Oh how cute it comes with this lovely fat penguin on it!' :)

Now that you mention it, having a cute little "Certified" penguin sticker slapped on PCs and Laptops next to the windows sticker would really help linux adoption. Not sure who that certificate issuer would be, and what hardware requirements would need to be met, but I'm sure it would make a few heads turn.

For all you up tight /ers, yeah I know the logistics of it would be a nightmare, flamewars about distros and compatability would start, holy wars would break out on usenet, microsoft would bully around OEMs not to put the linux sticker on the notebooks, or even better put the "designed for windows xp" sticker on top of the cute penguin sticker, and riots would break out in luxemburg, but hey, I can dream cant I?

Just saying, it would be a great PR move, and if someone big, say IBM or Dell started doing it, even if it just comes with a copy of Knoppix, it would start a trend. I can see the glowing green Tux sticker on the alienware notebooks already.

ACPI ... It's all about ACPI

[burtonator]

ACPI... Advanced Configuration and Power Interface

This is the biggest difficulty right now with Linux and laptops. I've had an Inspiron 8600 for months now and it still can't suspend (to memory or to disk).

If you want to get ACPI working correctly a kernel recompile is necessary and I'm sorry but users aren't going to do this.

Either we step forward and fix these issues or we can't expect users or vendors to take Linux seriously as a desktop operating system.

We're so close but 20% of the remaining functionality is 80% of the work.

Sad..

Suspend is NOT an optional feature on a laptop...

I don't get it

[Masa]

This laptop should be "Linux certified" and even the review says: "Overall, this is a well-working, robust laptop, hardware-wise. My problems were all OS-related." So, what kind of a certification is this? I thought that the whole point on "certifying" something is same as promising that there are no hick-ups in the product - in hardware-wise or software-wise. Why would the company, who makes this kinds of promises, ship the hardware with the software which clearly doesn't support the hardware fully? They even admit that the computer isn't fully functional with Xandros Desktop 2.0.

I can see that in this case the "certification" is more of a promise that the machine will work with future versions of Linux distributions (which is stupid, because the LinuxCertified.com says: "We make sure that all the core components, including the screen in its full resolution, sound etc., are correctly configured with Linux.", which at least for me, is a promise of fully functional OS shipped with the product).

Consumers in general aren't interested in future compatibility of products. They want fully functional product NOW. Without any hassle of installing newer version of the OS later.

In general, I like the idea that there will be companies who are willing to guarantee that the hardware will work with Linux. But I also want to see products that are usable without any additional tinkering.

Re:Fee? Excuse me?

[moxruby]

Ever heard of free? As in speech? Charging money for this goes against the entire philosophy of GNU and FSF.

Huh? How is a company charging money to put a piece of hardware through a series of tests against the philosophy of the FSF?

The manufacturer would then gain the right to put a "Linux certified" sticker on their product. Consumers who want linux compatability just have to look for the logo to be sure it will work.

Laptop quality

[pekoe]

Trying not to troll... My next computer will probably be a laptop, and it will be an iBook - maily because they're better made than other notebooks, rather than because I'm a Mac fan (I'm not, at least not yet). At the moment, the choice is a no-brainer. I can get a sub-1000 quid iBook these days that will do all that I want a wintel/*nix laptop for, but with very good quality hardware and *nix set-up with everything working. Compare that to spending the same cash on a less sturdy wintel item with an OS I dislike, or a less sturdy item with a reduced functionality for linux (simply because linux on a laptop is a pig to get working). I'm sure it can be done, but I just don't want to invest cash and then time as well getting it working. But rather than saying "Use OSX!" I'd say "take a lesson from Apple". Engineer a linux solution specifically for the hardware. Because trying to make it work with every distro is plainly not working, and that's not going to get me to part with my hard-earned wedge...

Ahhhhhhhh

[Graymalkin]

Why isn't there a Slashbox that lets me ignore all "reviews" written by Eugenia Loli-Queru. She's proved time and time again that she couldn't review herself out of a paper cup.

• How well does the integrated graphics chip work?
• Does the combo drive burn more than ISO images properly, you know those new fangled audio CDs and maybe a data backup disc? Does it read DVD-Rs properly and do DVD movies play without too much trouble?
• If she is going to do a review of a piece of hardware it ought to be tested. If she can finagle a laptop out of someone she should be able to get a Firewire hard drive for testing purposes.
• "Being a Centrino..." doesn't mean squat to me. What sort of work was she doing where the battery chugged along for 4.5 hours? Was that 4.5 hours of web browsing or 4.5 hours of Quake 3? How come the screen wasn't dim-able?

These are all questions that should have been answered, they certainly were hinted at. But no, show Eugenia some pretty pictures and she'll do a friggin backflip for you. This thing is hardly functional and she gave it seven points out of ten. In the configuration shipping to customers it won't go to sleep and the WiFi is shoddy and unreliable at best. How in the hell can something like that get seven points out of ten? Somebody got themselves a free toy laptop and gave the POS a good mark-up so the company will let her keep it. This article needs to be posted in the "How to Review Linux" story as a fine example of how not to write a review.

Re:I am glad to see...

[Lumpy]

and it pretty much means low-end.

I looked over the specs and the video on it is extremely dismal... intel chipset shared memory video... SIS video would have been better.

you are better off buying a different brand with higher end components and ignoring the useless modem or getting it without all the "built in's" and using pcmcia cards for greater compatability and performance.

It is a very expensive low end laptop. a linux user is better off with a non "certified" regular brand from HP or sony.

Re:I think this is great!

[sgtron]

This guy was modded as troll, but I have no idea why.. apart from his user name maybe.. but I can forgive that because his comment makes sense. listen, if you're going to call yourself "linux certified" then dammit your products had better work 100% as shipped! If I wanted a laptop that had buttons that didn't work with linux I'd keep my crappy hp pavillion laptop with all those keys that mean something to windows but to fedora (which it now runs) don't do anything. But no, I want a linux certified laptop that works. If there are buttons that are supposed to do something then I want them to work too, otherwise why have them there?

Re:ACPI ... It's all about ACPI

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an inspiron 8600 as well and I did some extensive research and recompiling in getting the ACPI features going just as all those features were developing. Those kinks are largely worked out now so the problem lies not so much in the ACPI capabilities as in the hardware support. The Nvidia drivers for linux just are not capable of sleeping. Actually they are capable of sleeping just not waking up again. They admit as much in their own documentation. Unfortunately Nvidia seems to be in no hurry to fix the problem. Until they do no laptop with an Nvidia card is going to sleep.

Re:You said it.

[cyborch]

I think I'm getting too old for world domination. These days I'd rather have people NOT use linux. There are two issues, as I see it:

Firstly, if my grandma started to use linux in stead of windows then she would come to me and ask me for help. Right now she sticks to asking windows people for help.

Secondly, I think people should use what works for them. If windows works for you then use windows. There is no need to switch to linux merely for the sake of switching to linux. If you feel like switching to linux, then do it to solve some problem (like "I do not like it when some internet worm infects my computer and reboots it continously").

Don't CARE if it works for 'em - polluting net.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Secondly, I think people should use what works for them. If windows works for you then use windows.

Unfortunately, Windows is causing major problems for people OTHER than its users, on the net and elsewhere, due to its poor design.

First: The poor security of windows results in repeated bursts of traffic clogging the net for days at a time, as the latest security vulnerabilities are exploited by viruses and worms. Microsoft has shown little competence at fixing these issues, which are becoming more rather than less of a problem with time as the malware authors improve their designs faster than Microsoft can fix their systems. There is no sign that this trend will reverse.

Arguments that the wider deployment of Microsoft products makes them a bigger target are disproved by the web server counterexample: Apache is far more widely used than Microsoft's IIS, yet IIS gets virtually all the exploits.

But with actual industries based on malware exploiting Windows security bugs, malware authors are polishing destructive payloads. With every passing year this increases the threat from malware ports to other more secure (though imperfect) systems, once windows is finally on its way out. It's much like the way large reservoir of disease increases the risk of plagues to currently uninfested areas.

Second: Microsoft's IP stacks "cheat" when setting the Quality of Service (QoS) bits, demanding higher service levels than the applications actually need or request. This once gave them improved performance over their competition. But it puts their low-priority traffic (like file transfers) in the way of streaming applications (like VoIP or videoconferencing).

This has impeded deployment of QoS sensitive applications, as well as proper deployment of QoS support and QoS-dependent services in both the enterprise and the network core. Currently they're supported by hacks - such as putting the VoIP phones on a separate virtual LAN that is given higher priority, VoIP phones with an "extension" outlet for the workstation which rewrite the QoS bits on the workstation's packets, and other router/switch/bridge/firewall/edge-router hacks that downgrade or selectively downgrade the QoS settings on customer packets.

This rewriting of QoS bits means that streaming applications running on Windows workstations can't get the service levels they need, and thus don't run as well as they should on workstations (which is part of why you see separate IP phone hardware, and why VoIP applications are so flakey). So it finally bit Microsoft, too. They now have an incentive to fix it. But projects to do so are delayed behind their frantic attempts to patch their security bugs. And even once they DO fix it there would be the problem of getting the fixes deployed, and onto legacy systems as well.

Meanwhile, OTHER OSes which DON'T cheat also have to deal with an internet where QoS isn't properly implemented, and where in some cases their packets get the same QoS-rewriting penalizations as are necessary to defend servers against Microsoftware's misbehavior.

The Microsoft shepherd cried "Wolf!" repeatedly (and still does). So now the townsfolk won't respond when ANY shepherd cries "Wolf!"

Third: Microsoft has deliberately deployed proprietary data and interface formats that don't interoperate with the products of other vendors, and has "embraced/extended (i.e. broken)/extinguished" even some proprietary standards. This results in things like email, web sites, and documents that won't work with - or even break - other people's tools, locking their customers into Microsoft products and impeding communication, not just between them and other internet users, but also among other internet users (as, for instance, clueless web designers write sites that assume Microsoft's browser).

This has placed an extra load on application designers, as they must reverse-engineer and support Microsoft proprietary formats so their users can communicate with the people still stuc