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IBM Desktops (Apple) Hardware

A History of PowerPC 193

A reader writes: "There's a article about chipmaking at IBM up at DeveloperWorks. While IBM-centric, it talks a lot about the PowerPC, but really dwells on the common ancestory of IBM 801" Interesting article, especially for people interested in chips and chip design.
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A History of PowerPC

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @03:54PM (#8728312)
    Sony?

    Does this mean that ALL next-generation consoles (next Gamebuce, PS3 and Xbox2) will use a IBM chip?
  • Yeah, I remember (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:01PM (#8728412)
    back in 94 or so, when the AIM were predicting that they were going to completely obliterate the x86 in a few years. Anyone still have those neat graphs that showed exactly where Intel would hopelessly fall behind while PPC would accellerate exponentially into the atmosphere?
  • by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) ( 613870 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:03PM (#8728438) Journal
    VHDL, Verilog, something else entirely?
  • Re:Big Endian (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Erect Horsecock ( 655858 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:03PM (#8728451) Homepage Journal
    Isn't Motorolas PPC implementation both big and little endian (i think it's called bit flipping) which is what made Virtual PC possible on Macs? I seem to remember an article somewhere about thats why VPC 6 wouldn't run on the G5 since it lacked the dual modes....

    Then again I could be completely wrong.
  • by Apple Acolyte ( 517892 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:05PM (#8728475)
    Parent AC asks,
    Does this mean that ALL next-generation consoles (next Gamebuce, PS3 and Xbox2) will use a IBM chip?

    It has been known for some time that the PS3 would based on the IBM "Cell" project, which is some sort of Power derivative (a.k.a. PPC). So yes, as far as anyone knows, the next generation consoles will all be powered by the PPC. With Generation 5 (G5) and beyond, it looks like the PowerPC Revolution [amazon.com] may finally be closer to reality. :-)

  • Re:Motorola (Score:2, Interesting)

    by MrIrwin ( 761231 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:08PM (#8728517) Journal
    Motorola did make a decent range of PPC based boxes. They could run NT (but the PPC version of NT never worked very well), they could run Unix (but legacy app varieties, and thiers was an incongruous multimedia box in that environment). It was supposed to run Apple, but I never saw that.

    Yes, Motorola did build and promote thier hardware, but OS manufacturers did not even seem to be able to get decent device drivers working for it, let alon do an efficient port. In the end it was a box that could (almost) do many things, but at a higher price for less performance. They threw in the towel.

    BTW, I did build a server using a Motorola motherboard and standard PC parts. It ran Aix 4 fine, but forget decent video drivers let alone sound. I did try getting the PPC port of Linux up on it, but never succeeded. It did run very stably as a server. It wasn't lightning fast but seemed to scale perfectly, it just kept chugging alone regardless of the workload you threw at it.

    I say blame the OS manufacturers for Motorolas lack of success with the PPC.

  • Re:*sigh* (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Homology ( 639438 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:14PM (#8728620)
    I still want a PPC ATX board. Pegasos was supposed to deliver, but their boards are still so expensive. :-(

    Supposed to deliver? OpenBSD people thought that as well, and got the OS running on it. Now OpenBSD consider Pegasos a scam operation and has pulled the support for Pegasos from CVS :

    R.I.P. OpenBSD/Pegasos - All the story [deadly.org]

  • by geoswan ( 316494 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:33PM (#8728812) Journal

    ...Even x86 chip manufacturers, which continued for quite a time to produce CISC chips, have based their 5th- and 6th-generation chips on RISC architectures and translate x86 opcodes into RISC operations to make them backwards-compatible...

    Maybe this is a sign that it has been too long since I learned about computer architecture, but is it really fair to call a CPU that has a deep pipeline, a crypto-RISC CPU?

    When my buddy first told me about this exciting new RISC idea one of the design goals was each instruction was to take a single instruction cycle to execute. Isn't this completely contrary to a deep pipeline? The Pentium 4 has a 20-stage pipeline IIRC.

    Was I wrong to laugh when I heard hardware manufacturers claim, "sure, we make a CISC, but it has RISC-like elements .

    What I am reminded of is the change in how musicians are classified. When I grew up rock music was just about all that young people listened to. Rap and punk music had never been heard of. And country music was considered incredibly uncool. Now country music's coolness factor has grown considerably. And a strange thing has happened. Lots of artists who were unquestionably considered in the Rock camp back then, like Neil Young, or Credence Clearwater, are now classified as Country music, as if they had never been anything else.

    It has been a long time, but I remember learning in my computer architecture course about wide microcode instruction words, and narrow microcode instruction words. Wide microcode instruction words allowed the CPU to do more operations in parallel. Ie. the opposite of a RISC. So, I ask in perfect ignorance -- how wide are the Pentium 4 and Athlon microcode?

    If I am not mistaken the Transmeta was a very wide instruction word. And if I am not mistaken, doesn't that make it the opposite of a RISC?

  • Re:Motorola (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Gizzmonic ( 412910 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:35PM (#8728850) Homepage Journal
    I've seen this myth repeated again and again, usually in conjunction with conspiracy theories like "Motorola quit developing the G4 to hurt Apple".

    1) 80% of all G4s sold have gone to Apple. So targetting the larger embedded market is a marketing excuse, a failure, or both.

    2)Motorola's fabrication facilities have been in horrendous shape for at least 4 years. High failure rates, In one location, they even quit running the fans to "save energy."

    3)Motorola has failed to advance in the embedded world as well. TiVO and many others are switching from PPC to MIPS because Motorola's stuff is not moving forward.

    4)Brain-drain and 'Dilbert syndrome' have plagued Motorola's CPU division since Apple killed the clones in 1997. They are spinning off that part of their business, but there's no indication that the situation has improved.
  • Re:*sigh* (Score:3, Interesting)

    by niko9 ( 315647 ) * on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:41PM (#8728927)
    You might just get what you want [theinquirer.net]

    Woudn't it be great to be a able to pick up and ASUS or Epox PowerPC motherboard and run it with a Power970FX?

    One can dream.
  • On a similar note... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kyoko21 ( 198413 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @04:51PM (#8729062)
    IBM announced today that they will be offering more information on the architecture of its PowerPC and Power server chips to device makers and software developers. [com.com] First software with Linux, and now hardward with their own Power Line. If intel can only do this for the Centrino line. :-/
  • by Toe, The ( 545098 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @05:40PM (#8729785)
    I figured /. would have a lot more discussion of the Terminator-like aspects of today's announcement.

    Did you read this? [businesswire.com] Look at the second-to-last paragraph:

    "...IBM is working on future Power chips that can physically reconfigure themselves -- adding memory or accelerators, for example -- to optimize performance or power utilization for a specific application."

    That is the first step in self-evolving machines.

    Yes, it is a minor step, but it is a friggin first step, OK? If they can pull this off, they are creating machines with the ability to adapt and evolve.

    This is what I would call artificial life. Once that step is taken, it's only a matter of time before the machines start evolving themselves.

    P.S. Now think about the kinds of viruses that could happen in that environment.

  • The complete history (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dncsky1530 ( 711564 ) on Wednesday March 31, 2004 @05:44PM (#8729833) Homepage
    I found this site a couple years ago, and i'm sure everyone has heard of it, but just in case: apple-history.com [apple-history.com]
  • Re:Motorola (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 01, 2004 @02:55AM (#8734391)
    (Now that I'm not actually at work...)

    I suspect that detaching them from the rest of the company will improve their operations. I know my division of Motorola (automotive) has had problems in the past with being forced to design for Motorola semiconductors. I've been involved in a couple fights that wound up at VP and CEO level, where Galvin basically told our group "Use the Motorola part". I have heard from SPS engineers that they've run into the same issue, being forced to design to PCS or GTSS's desires rather than what the market wants. So detaching them may help them respond quicker to customers who aren't internal, and respond better.

    Then again, it may not. They have pretty obvious development problems that cause them to slip and omit features they've promised, as you mentioned. I don't know if they can get that part back to par. I hope so - I really like programming to their DSPs, and everything I've heard from people who write for PowerPC embeddeds is that its a nice architecture to work with. So let's hope Freescale can reverse the recent trend, yeah?

    (posted anonymously for obvious reasons)

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