Chainsaw-wielding Robotic Submarine 322
merryprankster writes "New Scientist is running a story about Sawfish, a chainsaw-wielding
robotic submarine used as an underwater lumberjack. There are some 200
million trees thought to be standing on the floor of hydropower reservoirs worldwide.
Sawfish attaches airbags to, and cuts around 9 trees an hour - the trees then float
to the surface for collection. Cue the jokes about robotic high heels, suspenders
and a bra."
Old growth lumber (Score:5, Insightful)
At any rate, this old growth wood that is at the bottom of lakes and rivers has become quite prized for high end furniture, musical instruments and other applications where modern lumber does not cut it (*Snicker*), so developing robotics like this should have quite the payoff.
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Funny)
Well of course the Bushes support cutting down tall trees. They crowd out all the sunlight...
[duck]
Unrest in the Forest (Score:2)
There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas.
The trouble with the maples,
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light.
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made.
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade.
There is trouble in the forest,
And the creatures all have fled,
As the maples scream Opp
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:2)
But the helicopter can be submerged only once.
Photo??? (Score:2)
Re:Photo??? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:2)
There is a lot of well-preserved old-growth timber in these places that is economically worth logging.
Somewhere around here I have a couple photocopies of those old Aladdin advertisements
SB
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Informative)
Right, because after all, the U.S. Agriculture Department says [go.com] America has 749 million acres of forestland. In 1920, we had 735 million acres of forest.
Only 7% of current U.S. forestland has been planted by man, so I suppose that only leaves 687 million acres of old growth forest. Yep, sure sounds like it's almost all gone.
Hey! (Score:3, Interesting)
For all I know you went from 735 million acres of old-growth forest in 1920 to 749 million acres of the modern spongy fast-grown pine now.
My house (in Canada) is 75% old-growth pine. I cannot find any knots in the old stuff, and it's about as hard as granite, while the new stuff is like sponge. I've had to drill holes through the old-growth joists, and the the spade drill just about glows red by the time it's made its way through the
It's not a matter of tree count (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever been in the Santa Cruz area, south of San Francisco? All the redwood forests look very pretty. They give the impression of hosting tons of wildlife, and being very ancient. Both impressions are completely false. The Santa Cruz forests were actually completely cut down in order to rebuild San Francisco after the 1906 quake. (Redwood is the best structural wood there is, being extremely resistant to termite damage.) But after nearly a century natural, there are as many trees as there ever were. So the damage is undone right?
Wrong. When they cut down the forest, they eliminated a habitat, and a lot of biodiversity simply went away. It'll come back too, eventually -- but not in another 100 years, and probably not in a thousand.
There's more to forest management than just keeping the tree count up.
The tenth floor fallacy (Score:5, Insightful)
How much margin do we have left? I dunno. There are many arguments, but probably the only way to know for sure is to keep pushing until the planet ceases to be habitable. Which will certainly settle the argument, but which isn't very practical!
You remind me of an old ethnic joke. In these politically correct times, I can't be specific about the ethnic affiliation of our Straight Man -- insert whoever you stereotype as terminall stupid.
Anyway, the SM goes and jumps off the Empire State building just to see what its like. As he's passing the tenth floor, he thinks, "I heard this was dangerous, but so far it's just plain fu..."
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Old growth lumber - ARRRRRG (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Funny)
What are the upside to storing wood underwater? I can't think of any good reason to store wood underwater.
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Informative)
You obviously don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about.
Old growth forrests around here are HUNDREDS of years old. Kind of hard to get that way due to 100 years of firefighting.
Also, this wood is in great shape if it is under enough water. You go deep enough, and it's pretty lifeless. I have a picture frame I made out of summerged old growth. It's some of the nicese stuff around.
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:4, Informative)
Nope, sure can't [georgianbaywetwood.com]
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:5, Informative)
Uh
Some trees do require fire for their cones to release their seeds, but there are many that don't. In fact, most trees in the Pacific Northwest don't (at least on the west side of the Cascades) - forest fires are extremely uncommon due to the wet climate.
Seattle was covered with old growth forest when the settlers arrived in the 1850s. That certainly was the natural state of the forests. There are only a few old growth trees left within the city.
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Informative)
This is not just "my logic", forestry is a science. Are you saying fire is not Mother Nature's main mechanism for renewing a forest? Are you saying 100 years of playing God with forest fire has not screwed up any ecosystems anywhere? Please elaborate. The US, in the past - maybe even still, had "Let Burn" policies (ie. Yellowstone) recognizing that fire suppression does indeed create unnatural forests.
Some trees do require fire for their cones to release their seeds, but there are many that don't.
Many
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Informative)
Bur oaks bear seed up to an age of 400 years, older than reported for any other American oak. The minimum seed-bearing age is about 35 years, and the optimum is 75 to 150 years
"Bur oak is said to have reached a height of 52 m (170 ft) and a d.b.h. of 213 cm (84 in) in the lower Ohio Valley. On the better sites, mature trees generally grow 24 to 30 in (80 to 100 ft) tall, 91 to 122 cm (36 to 48 in) in d.b.h., and live 200 to 300 years. Characteristically, they have a massive, cl
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Interesting)
If you read the article you will see that wood submerged in cold, anaerobic conditions does not rot. Even in relatively warm, aerobic conditions storage is possible - read about the medieval method of cutting and preparing timber for an English Yew longbow, to see just one example.
As others have said, you do not understand "old growth" at all.
Forest renewal in the absence of fire, is, depending on species, quite normal.
What Japanese? Who tri
Re:Old growth lumber (Score:3, Informative)
a defense at last! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:a defense at last! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:a defense at last! (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay... (Score:5, Funny)
No, no... too silly! Stop the post!
Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay... (Score:2)
"Ro-bah-tick submarine and I'm Okay..."
Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay... (Score:2)
Re:Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay... (Score:3, Interesting)
Geez ... (Score:3, Funny)
Obiously.. (Score:2)
Re:Geez ... (Score:4, Funny)
And I am still thanking them for it.
I'm having some really, really bad visions... (Score:4, Funny)
Great Wood from these Trees (Score:5, Informative)
Great idea. Hope it's not one of the ugly big corporations that Michael hates so much that is doing it. And for god's sake, let's hope nobody actually makes an EVIL profit off of it. Right, Michael?
Re:Great Wood from these Trees (Score:2)
Im a lumberjack and Im ok... (Score:5, Funny)
Not just suspenders and a bra, more a full on scuba gear! ooooh, Neoprene! Kinky!
My Auction:Pan Tilt Ethernet Webcam 4 days! [ebay.co.uk]
Oh, great (Score:2, Funny)
This is going to really piss off the Atlanteans.
Where's Hagbard when you need him.
(this isn't off topic if you have any idea what i'm talking about, so leave me alone, modders!)
Re:Oh, great (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Oh, great (Score:2, Funny)
Environmental Consideration (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Environmental Consideration (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Environmental Consideration (Score:5, Funny)
Underwater Trees? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Underwater Trees? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Underwater Trees? (Score:4, Funny)
Old Growth Lumber (Score:5, Interesting)
pictures (Score:5, Informative)
Found some pics here [woodworkweb.com].
Re:pictures (Score:2, Informative)
erm
Photo here... (Score:2)
Sawfish Triton (Score:3, Informative)
CORRECT photo here... (Score:5, Informative)
(darn, I forgot to close a quote.
Sub Picture (Score:3, Informative)
Company Website + More Pictures (Score:3, Informative)
Python references aside... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Python references aside... (Score:2)
Call the FAO Schwartz people (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people (Score:2, Funny)
Scale it down and this could be the next killer bath toy for kids.
Literally.
Re:Call the FAO Schwartz people (Score:2, Funny)
Finally ... (Score:2, Funny)
It all makes sense: (Score:2, Funny)
Okay, I'll Admit It... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Okay, I'll Admit It... (Score:5, Informative)
Check this page:
http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0198.htm
Near the end.
GJC
Not again! (Score:3, Funny)
Return on Investment (Score:2, Interesting)
Sawfish submarines for sale $750,000...
I wonder what the buyers of expect to get per tree? If the pure profit is 1 dollar per tree minus other operating expense than it will take 83333 hours or 3472 days or 9 years to pay off the machine. Hmmm, I would rather be selling these guys for 750k than buying it and hopping for a return on investment.
Re:Return on Investment (Score:2)
Never bought lumber, have you? (Score:4, Informative)
They'll be able to make plenty of profit per tree, probably over $100 each, after expenses.
Re:Return on Investment (Score:4, Informative)
Look here [forestnet.com] or here [diveweb.com].
My dad's a woodworker, and he's looked into buying some of the wood for it's overall quality, and some of its VERY unique graining and colouring.
The higher end wood was priced at over $1,000 per board foot (CDN), with the "cheap" high-end stuff being around $200 per board foot. When you consider that a single log (on average) has thousands of board feet in them, the profits are WAY more than $1 per tree!
I wish I could find the pics of some of the finished products, but if you go here [survivorwoods.com] you can see some of the graining of the recovered logs.
There was one 35 foot long board-room table I saw that was $120,000, and it LOOKED like it was worth every penny. It was incredible.
A lot of the local governments are starting to jump in and try and get ownership of the underwater resources, like in Michigan. There's SERIOUS money in it.
One Question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:One Question (Score:2)
level playing field (Score:2)
you insensitive clods (Score:3, Funny)
Underwater Gnomes (Score:2)
It will look cooler and be updated more often.
Coming this Spring... (Score:5, Funny)
Imagine a time of chaos...
OMFG we're in a bad sci-fi movie!
(shit, we don't even need the robotic chainsaw sharks to make it scary... its scary enough already).
why does this make me think of.... (Score:2)
Sawfish! (Score:2)
Not only is it one of the most extensible window managers around (being written in a lisp dialect), it also cuts trees underwater!*
*: Julienne fries and sex toy attachments sold separately
Underwater Cypress (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually... (Score:4, Informative)
Great... (Score:5, Funny)
Useful for piling removal (Score:5, Interesting)
The usual solution is to get a large barge-mounted crane and pull them up by brute force, but that's expensive. So it tends not to get done until somebody wants to build something and can convince the city to let them. The bayfront clutter of pilings and rotted piers makes open shoreline look less attractive, which encourages "development". A cheaper way to remove that junk, even if it's slow, would be a big win.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Great Lakes Logs (Score:5, Interesting)
Companies are salvaging lumber from the Great Lakes [popularwoodworking.com] also.
from the article:
"One area in the Great Lakes where a team of horses ... went through the ice with a load of logs ... the skeletal remains of the horse are still there, harness, logs and all."
I'd like to see it try a Cypress stump... (Score:5, Interesting)
One weekend while up there, I had friends of mine who are Scuba divers don their gear, and try to use a large hacksaw to try and remove it. They came back with 5 chewed up hacksaw blades, and low on air.
About every few years or so, the LCRA will let the lake level down (it's a constant level lake, a dam on each end) so that homeowners can go out and clear out their lakefront property where the lake usually would be. Over the years we've seen folks try chainsaws, winches, fire, and even explosives to get rid of that hard Cypress stump, to no avail.
So, to this day, that stump remains vigilant and intact.
Underwater robot chainsaw submarine? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:It's a lumberjack and It's ok (Score:2)
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish I could explain the biology to you, but I can't. Something about the fact the water doesn't move much at the bottom the lake (as opposed to a river), it's fresh water (as opposed to salt), and the type of wood (cedar works well and oak preserve really well), and you have old growth lumber that is amazingly well preserved.
Oh, and if you used it on a deck, you deserve to be beaten by said deck for wasting such good wood.
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:5, Informative)
With the rapid depletion of old wood, it should be reserved for high-end furniture, instruments, etc. This is a fantastic alternative for outside use!
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:3, Interesting)
That said is petroleum a better material to make wood out of? Maybe if it's recycled plastic products, but otherwise I'd just prefer normal wood.
But robotic underwater lumberjacks is a great idea. Maybe
Composites hold up great too (Score:2)
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:2, Informative)
Good enough for me.
And a company called Mountain Lumber [mountainlumber.com] retrieves wood from piers in DC [mountainlumber.com] and Savannah for resale to homebuilders (I really wanted some of the wood from that Savannah pier for my house - too damn expensive, though)
Re:How good is the wood like that? (Score:3, Informative)
Put Some Effort In! (Score:2)
My Auction:Pan Tilt Ethernet Webcam 4 days! [ebay.co.uk]
Re:Put Some Effort In! (Score:2)
I was trying to make first post.
I'm still waiting for a good
Re:Fish habitat (Score:4, Informative)
I should also point out that hydroelectric reservoirs are, by definition, artificial habitats, and any fish adapting to them are, also by definition, an introduced species.
My brother and collected Christmas trees one year to dump in a pond we occasionally fished in. We had brim out the yazoo that summer.
Clark's Hill Reservoir, near where I grew up, has lots of submerged trees in it. When water levels fluctuate in the summer, boats collide with treetops where there shouldn't be treetops. Hopefully, this sort of work could make for safer lakes in the process.