Tom's Hardware Investigates Michael's Computers 609
cojsl writes "Tom's Hardware has an extensive article raising questions about Michael's Computers and their claims of a laptop with a "3DMark03 Average Score - 15,417"." It gets funnier as you go along.
That's what I call a fan! (Score:5, Interesting)
He prolly does ship comps (Score:2, Interesting)
easy foolery (Score:5, Interesting)
Mind you the product drawings were almost MS paint quality.
One of the items I sold was a "katana" laptop computer, with CPU speeds about twice of the fastest CPUs of the day. Also, it said you could buy the laptop in person at our outlet store in New Tokyo.
Needless to say regardless of how amateur the page looked, I got emails every day from people who believed it. Most of them wanted the price on the katana. To think if I was a shyster I could have been swimming in credit card numbers.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:2, Interesting)
THG most likely wanted to avoid anything like the petswarehouse.com [slashdot.org] fiasco.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:5, Interesting)
I had a run-in with a retailer at a computer show some years ago who was substituting sub-standard parts and pre-loading Windows 98 on his boxes, advertising them as having Windows 98 included, and then not including the Win98 CD. When I purchased a computer from him for someone else, and then came across a problem with that PC that required the CD, I called to get a copy sent to me, and the retailer refused, said I had to pay $50 to get the CD. I realized quickly that this was a scam he was running, and no matter what, he would not give me the CD. I actually called the Microsoft Piracy Hotline (I've never done that since, and normally I would have just dropped it, but he made me irritated enough with his attitude) and they thanked me, and promised to go after him.
Next computer show a couple months later, same retailer is there, same scam, different "company" name and different location & phone number. These guys thrive on being mobile. They're like cockroaches. Shine the light on them, and they disappear for a little while, but they still come back.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:4, Interesting)
The lack of an outright fraud claim wasn't my issue though. The investigation was good, the story fell short at the end though. Again I ask my valid question, what does it take to get a do not buy recommendation from THG?
Makes You Think -ResellerRatings.com (Score:5, Interesting)
Pulled Punches (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe Tom's Hardware should hire John Stossel if they are going to do these kinds of pieces.
Re:Lesson to learn: (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone also sold the Eiffel tower for scrap.
Twice.
To the same company, I believe.
Re:I know... (Score:5, Interesting)
Q: When a client says "How can your systems be instant?"
A: Simply, because most operations that occur on other systems take time to load or render. We eliminated the so called "wait-time" a few years ago with inventing our TXK modeling for our Hard Drive systems. Where many systems today are built with just the "fastest" processor, we dive deeper into incorporating the true components that allow every application you run, to run at the fastest speed possible.
Bizarre.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:5, Interesting)
The sales blurb for the "Michaels MX8" says "Now with 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 Surround sound at 180dB!"
The circa 1950's Chrysler civil defense siren [victorysiren.com], the world's loudest, peaks at 138dB. It can be heard piercingly at five miles distance. 180dB would be on the order of a small earthquake.
Re:Not in doubt, but.... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not convinced that Infinium Labs has any leg to stand on on that one though, I'm not convinced there is any libel, but they can still try to sue and harass. The Tom's writer is possibly just being CYA about it.
Re:The reporter... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Sociopaths (Score:1, Interesting)
I read it. Why do you ignore the most valid points like: .16 dB noise and 500GB hard disks? How long have you known him as Mike?
Re:Sociopaths (Score:5, Interesting)
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Sociopaths are dangerous people. Tracking them down is fine, but be careful if you decide to tangle with one. Some will dedicate their life to revenge.
I know a lot of people are probably going to say "but he's not a sociopath, just some guy running a scam" or something like that about your Sociopath remark (even though you provided a quite informative link) because in so many people's minds sociopath = homicidal maniac. However I believe you may have hit the nail very firmly on the head in this case. I can't imagine anyone that wasn't a true sociopath being able to so calmly answer this unprompted interview, do so on video (without advance notice as well) and not even break a sweat. Heck, a lot of "normal people" can't pass a lie detector test even if they're telling the truth. (A dirty little secret about them is that concern about what led to the polygraph (such as being accused of murder, etc) is enough to trigger a noticeable reaction to any questions relating to that subject -- irregardless of the answer. Basically you can answer yes or no and it register as a lie either way.)I think the Tom's Hardware guys realized what you're saying as well, they had enough evidence to just really lay into this guy but if you read carefully you'll see an almost pained effort to stay unoffensive to Michael. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if interviewing the guy wasn't terrifying for them. That said, I hope that if everything is as bogus as it seems that someone can get him stopped.
There are some really strange things here though, Paypal is very sensitive to fraud, and even if they refused to allow chargebacks (they have been reported to just take the money out of your bank account if they get a chargeback), they more than likely would shut down a count that generated quite a few of them. However from the article and the screenshot it would appear his Paypal account is still quite valid. While his busines license isn't valid, it only expired in Januray IIRC, and it would be quite easy to overlook this, especially after having had a divorce and having to move (the notice might have missed him). I'm by no means defending Michael, from the info laid out I'd never buy a computer from the guy myself, but things like this always bug me. Perhaps I just have an inner preference to have things more black & white. :)
Whats Missing... (Score:3, Interesting)
So what is missing from this story you ask? Well you have a company that claims to have the fastest Desktop and Laptop PC known to man. And a website that reviews PC's and Laptops. What you don't have is any review in the story.
Not one piece of hardware was obtained and/or tested. I mean if you want to call the guy a fraud (which he most likely is) is not this story 90% incomplete without actually running any benchmarks on the hardware?
I have a Michael's PC at home (Score:5, Interesting)
A little background: About a year and half ago I found myself needing/wanting a monster PC, P4 2.8, 5 WD drives, 4 in a raid 10 array for photography, music, video, etc. Gotta protect all those thousands of pictures. For fun I also wanted a gaming config as well, Radeon 9700 Pro, DDR 400, etc. Long story short, I wanted a top of the line Voodoo PC or Alienware, or Hypersonic, custom built for me, not built by me. But in NO WAY did I want the silly paint job or the price that came with it.
I also do enough hardware fiddling at work that I just didn't want to deal with it at home (busy + lazy). I wanted Uber Box to show up at my door. Go ahead poke fun, I wanted it, I could get it, so I got it.
Back then his site was much less over-the-top, he had a 7 year warranty, etc. I dealt with Michael over the phone and we came to a price which was quite agreeable for the parts and labor. I knew the pricegrabber price for every part in there, MB, sticks of memory, etc. The spec sheet he sent was right on.
The PC is great, nice build, no widgets, no crapware, XP Pro with all MS-Phone-Home-ware removed or disabled, all those services in XP that most of us know to turn off, he had them off, etc, etc. When I had trouble with the Firewire ports, he walked me through the pin-outs on the Audigy 2, when that didn't work due to meager support from Creative, he overnighted me a firewire card. He has been outstanding as far as customer service is concerned, I'm quite happy with the "uber-box", yes it's over the top, but i like it that way and in a few years I won't be aching for a complete replacement.
I always ignored his marketing. He's a VERY exhuberant fellow in person, and it shows! HA. He's a one-man-show. He knows how to build a nice PC, and is willing to do it, where I am not. I disapprove of the direction his marketing has taken (who wouldn't). Because of it, I've taken to sending folks here [pugetsystems.com] and elsewhere who want a PC built for them.
It's sad because if you remove the marketing aspect, and of course haggle on price, he DOES do just as good a job as the Alienware / Voodoo PC folks. Actually better because I hate that tricked out case stuff, and I have yet to hear of Alienware calling or emailing you back in 5 minutes with a fix or a tracking number to a free replacement part you haven't asked for yet.
Just goes to show that running a [Widget] business takes a lot more than being a [Widget] expert. You've got to have your marketing, order processing, legal angles, etc., all figured out as well.
Maybe this "expose" will help him improve. I wish him luck. He's a real nice guy.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:5, Interesting)
I bought an SPL meter from Radio Shack so I could test how loud my car stereo got. The needle on the meter went to a max of 130Db. I was able to bury the needle on several occasions.
Considering the evidence that you have quoted there is no doubt in my mind that the meter was worthless.
My point: maybe he just has shitty testing equipment?
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:easy foolery (Score:4, Interesting)
Sells to the Navy (Score:2, Interesting)
Big F**king Deal
I was on the Navy end of purchasing before, not from his store but many others. We often recieved complete JUNK. I am sure every command is different and this was a few years ago but...
We would place an order for hardware. Sometimes very specific things, sometimes generic. Our purchase request would be sent to accounting or purchasing and bids from local businesses were solicited. Our local accounting office was sensitive to minority, small, business owners so a black female owned small business would have a better chance of getting some contracts then a small business owned by a white man. I am in no way shape or form predjidiced or racist, I am just describing the details of the process, I DO NOT know the specific formula they used or any percentages they followed. Many people doing bidding know the game and how to take advantage of this process with husbands and wifes and children all owning thier "own" company.
There was one company that was minority owned, small and would undercut everyone else that bid. We always recieved complete CRAP from them, MB's that the serial ports did not work, MB's that did not fit a standard size. A ten pack of Zip disks but only 5 included. Old refurbed or completely dead Fujitsu HD's (at that time frame, Fujitsu had huge problems), remarked equipment etc.. Often times, some of the problems could be resolved but it required a lot of internal paperwork and phone calls. For the items we were shorted, the common excuse from them was that it was backordered and we should expect it later but the PO clearly stated order was complete and the count on the PO indicated everything was included. It was a complete scam and being a tech recieving the junk, it was not really worth the time to stop it.
Again, I've been out of the Navy for a while now so things may have changed.
Re:Not in doubt, but.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe Michael's Computers should try to claim the prize, what with the supernatural performance of their systems. ;)
As far as Michael's Hardware, just remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is, and at the very least, you should check first.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:My benchmark (Score:3, Interesting)
This guy sells computers and knows nothing about what he's doing. He includes logos, reads the trades and doesn't really understand the business nor the hardware he's selling.
I doubt a scam, honestly. I'm pretty convinced this is a case of a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about spinning everything to the best that he can. A guy who thinks he's good at sales and knows computers.
He probably sells quite a few systems, and the equally ignorant customers are pleased with what they get.
--
Evan
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:1, Interesting)
Youths only?
I wonder where on that scale a cat walking on carpet (at 3-4 meters) would be?
I have no problem (at 30) with hearing my cat walking in the next room (carpeted floor.) It really freaked my wife out the first few times when he'd walk into the room at night, and I'd call him to jump up to sleep with us (he always waited for an invitation.) On a couple of occasions, she'd hear something which she thought was him, and call him, and I'd tell her that he was in the living room.
Until I got married, I thought everybody could do this.
Does NOT Sell to the Navy (Score:5, Interesting)
This Michael guy is a 100% liar.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:3, Interesting)
Fast forward 3 years, I am related a story by a coworker of their friend who went there to buy a PC. The computer came with no discs, no "windows authentic" sticker, etc. Had a minor problem with it, and the guy refused to fix it, and said it would be $200 for the windows CD. I had my boss relay to them that what that guy is doing is illegal, and that I hope they paid with a credit card.
Re:My benchmark (Score:3, Interesting)
My 5400 benchmark is only obtained at the expense of switching off AA and AF, so the edge rendering quality is shit. Who seriously uses it like that? I use AA x4 and AF x 4 normally, the 3DMark03 benchmark comes down to about 2800, it might drop to 3fps a couple of times (Nature), but the Wings of Anger section is absolutely stunning, with rates peaking in the 300+fps range.
So what gives? I've seen the 10000+ scores posted and think "Bet it's totally unbearable to watch".
Obviously I just don't get it!
Not fully fradulent (Score:2, Interesting)
Otherwise, my impression is that the chips are overclocked. Hence, the somewhat shakey description of the notebook chips.
I have no idea what the deal is with the advertised weight on the notebooks. It is unrealistic, although the system I bought from them was a desktop, so I can't really comment. Nor can I comment on the "Windows 2004."
Re:Not in doubt, but.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Mod down this liar (Score:3, Interesting)
Truthfully the more I dig into these forums and hear about what he had on his site since then the more happy I am he stopped offering his run-of-the-mill PC which I was recommending to folks for about 2 months. I WAS really impressed with his service remember, and the 7 year warranty has it's charms. See above poster on why it could be a good idea. His site looked naive then, it sounds pathological now but it went down and will surely be redesigned if somebody's lawyers don't get him first.
Hey can you analyze writing styles? Funny thing is, it wasn't the processor speed that was making it crash, I fiddled a ton and found it was the bus speed. The damn MB or more likely RAM didn't support a full 400MHz, so once I reduced the multiplier and now run stable at 2.98GHz but have the DDR set to 384 IIRC. Been awhile since I looked.
If that doesn't clear my good pseudonym I give up. Read that again too, he does sound enthusiastic and friendly. Maybe I was a sucker. But he did deliver for me, the pc and good service. That's all I can say for my part.
How could he never deliver a computer? He's just taking people's money and sending them nothing and nobody prosecutes... I mean where's the scam in that. His home address sure was easy to find.
Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:3, Interesting)
Except that's true only to a moderately computer-literate buyer.
There are many, many Joe Sixpacks who go to those shows just to buy the cheapest PC available so they can have a PC. They know nothing about the equipment, they may (or may not) have a technically adept friend who steered them towards these shows for a cheap PC, etc. They know that if they go to Best Buy, a PC will cost them $400, but if they go to a show they can get one for $200.
Joe Sixpack doesn't know anything about "pirated" copies of software. As far as he's concerned, he legitimately bought it because he gave the guy at the show $200. And the transactions typically aren't itemized; it's not like there is a receipt indicating he's paying $50 for the case, $50 for the hard drive, $50 for the mobo, and $50 for the CPU. So there isn't even the omission of a "Windows 98 - $33" line to tip him off that he received Windows without paying for it.
If you already know enough to ask questions like these, then yes, you already know you're getting more than what you're paying for. As you pointed out, both parties will nod and wink at each other when the "test software" remains on the hard drive. Neither party has an active interest in talking about the origins of this software -- so the booth vendor can unfairly compete on price with machines that have bundled legal copies of software, and the booth customer gets a computer full of software for dirt cheap.
While I think Microsoft is 'ethically challenged' in oh-so-many ways, it is still not appropriate for me to respond by making copies of their software in protest. If I think their software is overpriced; or if I think they are hiding API calls from me as a developer; or if I think they are predatorily acquiring competitors, I do have legal recourse through the court system. Acquiring an unlicensed copy of Windows claiming "stick it to da man for overcharging!" is not a form of protest -- it's a form of stealing.
Heh...do a view source on his website... (Score:2, Interesting)
-L