Tom's Hardware Investigates Michael's Computers 609
cojsl writes "Tom's Hardware has an extensive article raising questions about Michael's Computers and their claims of a laptop with a "3DMark03 Average Score - 15,417"." It gets funnier as you go along.
Sociopaths (Score:4, Informative)
Sociopaths [datawest.net] are dangerous people. Tracking them down is fine, but be careful if you decide to tangle with one. Some will dedicate their life to revenge.
My benchmark (Score:1, Informative)
Totally Awesome Computers (Score:2, Informative)
Slashdotted, alternate mirror server here (Score:3, Informative)
http://www20.tomshardware.com/
Re:My benchmark (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So where can I actually buy a tricked out PC? (Score:5, Informative)
If you really want the uber game machine you probably want to build it yourself. Maximum performance doesn't ALWAYS have to cost you stability if you buy the right parts from the right vendors.
You're right about local stores, at least in my area, they are very delayed. I can usually order the latest online and get it in the mail before any local chains get it in stock. As far as I can tell, the local mom n' pop stores are always the most cautious to get the latest hardware. Try the gamer franchises, like EB Games. Best Buy, Circuit City, CrapUSA never have a good enough selection of products. (They might only sell PNY Nvidia cards, when you really want the Hercules.)
The absolutely funniest thing I've ever seen... (Score:1, Informative)
3DMark2001 and 2003 (Score:5, Informative)
3dMark2003 is a whole different ball game however, and a score of 15,000 is clearly impossible. The world record is just over 10,000 points (trivia: made by finnish overclocker 'Macci' with a p4 3.2 EE clocked to 4.5 ghz and a Radeon 9800XT clocked extremely high).
Extreme overclocking has gone a long way. Macci cools both his cpu and gpu with a cascade system which is two phase change coolers (like the Vapochill) connected together in some cool way I don't have the technical know-how to describe. It cools both his cpu and gpu to -100C.
Text (no pictures) of article (Score:3, Informative)
Too Good to Be True: Michael's Computers
Introduction
"I don't care what kind of computer you have now, but it CAN'T be faster than one from Michael's Computers. You may think your PC is the best in the world, but you are wrong. With a boot time of 4 seconds, a 3dMark 2003 score of 17,000+, and a
We usually don't do investigative articles, but the claims coming from Michael's Computers were too good to ignore. A deluge of discontent expressed in emails and discussion forums further prompted us to look into a deal that seemed to good to be true.
Evidence was gathered from numerous phone interviews, countless emails and several visits to alleged Michael's Computers business locations. To top it all off, we tracked down Mr. Gonzales and interviewed him ON VIDEO, which can be viewed/downloaded at the end of this article.
So, is Michael J. Gonzales, the owner of Michael's Computers, misleading consumers by posting false information? Is he using proprietary logos without permission, and operating without the necessary business permits? Read on and decide for yourself.
The Buzz About Michael's Computers
I first heard of Michael's Computers on Feb 25, 2004 when THG received this email from Ryan Sanders.
I was wondering if your site has ever had any news on Michaels Computers (www.michaelscomputers.com). His site has been a swirl of controversy over the last week on many a message boards due to claims of hitting 17,000+ in 3DMark03 from their desktop, and 13-15,000 for their notebooks. On top of that, they claim to have a "AMD FX51 3400+ CPU". As most of us know their are 2 different CPU's that fit that description (The Athlon64 FX-51 and then there is the Athlon64 3400+), but when contacted about that, he claimed it was in fact the correct title for the CPU, and that it was some sort of specially optimized CPU.
I was wondering, since you are a well established and reputable hardware site, if you could look into this, or request a sample product for Review? I, along with many others, believe this site to be a joke, or hoax, and don't want to see a bunch of people buy into the big numbers of the benchmark scores. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Ryan Sanders.
I was thinking, "WOW!!! I want this laptop!" so I searched for more information on discussion forums and Michael's website.
Just before this article was submitted, I received this email from Chuck Davis:
A year ago I called them on the phone and talked directly to Michael. He totally sold me on his stuff and therefore I continued to follow his site. I ordered an am MX51 back in Nov. and waited two weeks with no computer. We were emailing each other with ?s and responses during that two week period. On a Sun. he said the MX51 would be shipped that week and he would send me a tracking #. On Fri. still nothing and I emailed him and nothing so I cancelled. Luckily I was able to use my credit card and had no problem with a refund. Since that time he has stopped accepting emails.
Truthfully, he is a complete liar. He told so many lies about the MX51, I am so glad I was able to get out of it. Almost every claim he made was false. If you need more detail I will give them to you later. Stay away from this company.
Discussion Boards
I browsed a few online discussion boards such as Futuremark, Sharky Extreme, and IGN. Each time Michael's Computers has been mentioned, the boards have been flooded with responses. Some of these discussions have generated HUNDREDs of posts, like this discussion from the Sharky Extreme Forums.
I hope you have a lot of time available to read the 470+ posts on that particular discussion.
I Have One (Score:5, Informative)
This reminds me of... (Score:3, Informative)
Some of the cases simply had three 7-segment LEDs with jumpers to select what was "displayed" when the "turbo" button was pressed.
This guy was selling "100 MHz" 80486 computers back when the top speed available was still 33 MHz, and it took awhile before anybody called bullshit... the amazing thing is that people were willing to believe that their computers really were that much faster, just to stroke their own ego.
Re:Totally Awesome Computers (Score:1, Informative)
I'd be careful about tangling with Super Dell. He seems to be a man on the edge. I listened to a scary radio stunt one morning involving Super Dell. I guess Super Dell has said some things that offended Native Americans. On the radio show, one of the DJ's went to Super Dell's house dressed as an Indian and did Indian chants outside. Super Dell came outside (decked out in camouflage and face paint) with a gun and had two rottweilers at his side. Luckily, the police arrived quickly. All of this prompted people who have had run-ins with Super Dell to call the station and tell about their experiences. I don't know if a lot the stories are true, but some sounded so bizarre that I don't think people could have made them up.
See the following:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10172003/bu
http://www.superdellsucks.com/index.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:5, Informative)
194 decibels (RMS) sound-pressure-level approaches the atmospheric pressure level.
With an RMS value of 194 decibels, the peak SPL would modulate the atmospheric value entirely. That would make it the loudest possible...
194 Maximum possible (from atmospheric 14.7psi down to 0psi)
177 Record for car audio!
170 Shotgun blast up close
160 Perforation of eardrum
140 Jet Aircraft Taking Off
120 Human Threshold of Pain - 1 watt/sq. meter
120 Loud Rock Concert
110 Moderate rock concert, dance club
100 Motorcycle
-- extended listening above 85-90dB leads to hearing loss --
90 Lawnmower, loud home stereo
85 Jackhammer at 15 meters (50 feet)
80 Moderate home stereo, ringing telephone
75 Average City Street
70 Freeway traffic, TV audio
60 Normal Conversation
50 Large office background noise
40 Quiet office or residential area
30 Whisper at 3 meters (10 feet), Very soft music
20 "Silent" TV Studio, Whisper at 1 meter, Quiet living room
10 Soft rustling of leaves
0 Human threshold of hearing (youths)
(table from http://www.geocities.com/rf-man/db.html )
Re:hahaha You're a sucker (Score:3, Informative)
Right in line with all the other quotes I got from the custom build shops on resellerratings.com, only real difference was a 7 year warranty for free instead of an extended 3-year that costs extra. A sucker is someone who thinks he's getting something he's not. I got exactly what I wanted. Maybe next time YOU'LL build it for me and warranty it for less (while I go fishing)?
Re:I Have One (Score:3, Informative)
If you remember Liebermann Computers [go-l.com] (a lot of people thought they might be a hoax with some of their products), even their laptops look the same.
Alienware also looks the same.
Re:easy foolery (Score:5, Informative)
http://british.nerp.net/commentary/alburt.html
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:2, Informative)
For reference, 120 dB is the threshold of physical pain and equivalent to standing next to the engine of a jet transport at takeoff thrust. Beyond that organ damage begins.
What a load of crap.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:2, Informative)
I did not specifically find the quoted 177 but a few in the mid 170's.. Many of the google links describe this sport and the background.
Re:Not in doubt, but.... (Score:4, Informative)
But you have seen new breeds of dogs, and new strains of the flu virus, and new antibiotic-resistant bacteria, right? The exact same principles apply to us -- only many humans are way too arrogant to acknowledge that, yes, we are subject to the same forces of any other animal. Natural selection is still alive and well, thank you, and along with its friends 'Variation' and 'Mutation', evolution is still chugging along.
The underlaying rules behind evolution are testible, and have been proven as well as any scientific fact can be (see the Problem of Induction in any philosophy textbook), which is why evolutionary modeling techniques are used in any field that requires predictions about complex molecules. This includes chemical engineering, medical research, and even computer software design.
Go read talkorigins.org [talkorigins.org]; it explains a lot, and it answers a lot of common misconceptions about evolution. Also note that evolution says nothing about religion, and many religious people believe that God put the rules in place to let us evolve -- which is a much more reasonable concept than assuming that what happened in the Bible literally occurred, and that God just put all these fossils and all of that radioactive material around 'just to confuse the unworthy'.
Creationism is supernatural -- it completely contradicts pretty much every piece of scientific knowledge in almost every field, from anthrpology to quantum mechanics. Thus, proving creationism *would* earn one the million dollars -- and, yes, people have tried to do it, and failed.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:3, Informative)
One of the editors.... (Score:2, Informative)
On that note, it would take a SERIOUS n00b to believe any of the BS from Michael's Computers. All they need do is look at the FM ORB and realize the highest score EVER ACHIEVED using stock settings is just over 10000 (10008 [futuremark.com], to be exact).
Actually, now that I read the article, I must take a chuckle at the 500GB HyperDrives. I'll take one for my X-Wing, please.
As I said a few days ago on the FM forums... I think my bullshitometer just overloaded.
Athlon 64 notebook is a Mitac (Score:1, Informative)
I bought one from Hyperdata [hyperdatadirect.com] which is basically the retail front for Sunrex. I'm very happy with it so far, it seems well put together and haven't noticed any hardware defects.
This is definitely not for someone who plans to carry their laptop around all day, but it's fine for occassionally lugging to work, conferences, vacation, etc. Besides, the performance and largeish screen are very nice.
I was daring and ordered mine sans OS. After a couple of tries and a little poking around on the web I was able to install Fedora Core 1 (x86-64 version) successfully. The 2 main tricks are
- disable frame buffering during install, "linux nofb"
- the installer won't recognize the Radeon 9600 mobility, you have to hand configure and use the VESA driver
With the above two tricks an out-of-the-box FC1 install is quite usable. Some deficiencies noted:- underperforming video driver (no surprise)
- wireless kernel module not found
- misc minor software issues that are probably due more to the imaturity of FC1 x86-64.
I think most of these issues could be resolved with just a little tinkering, but I don't have the time. My plan is to wait for FC2 official release and hope most of the problems magically go away.Maybe it's me... (Score:3, Informative)
There's no dynamic element to the webpage, whatsoever!!!
There's no shoppping cart system, at all! All that's there is a "buy now" paypal link on each of the product pages.
Maybe it's me, but using a third party processor like Paypal, Ibill, whatnot, holds against a company's legitimacy. Sadly, I'd be better off giving my credit card number over the net to another store because at least those who can process credit card orders through the web have a merchant account.
Places that have merchant accounts are very picky about chargebacks. A company like Michael's Computers wouldn't be able to have one for very long.
Re:That's what I call a fan! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Mod down this liar (Score:3, Informative)
I do care just a little about my rep here on
I'll check that link out at home, blocked from here/work. But I do remember the cheesy giant eagle and such. If you look at what I wrote I said it was LESS over the top, I didn't say he wasn't making claims, but yes he has gotten worse, much worse. Maybe he's not selling enough and got more desperate. I really don't know. I also said, "I always ignored his marketing", I knew he was a one man show so the marketing foibles didn't bother me. I got what I wanted out of him at a decent price. And the service HAS BEEN good. I wouldn't buy again because instead of exaggerating in his marketing (oh yeah like THAT's so rare, esp for a one-man operation) now he seems to have gone off the deep end. He's got a "sound system" he says is louder than a space shuttle launch and a cooling system that is quieter than soft human breathing on a heavily overclocked PC?? I dunno, maybe he hit his head! Haha. My main point of the post was the last few lines...
IT takes more than a $Widget expert to run a $Widget business. Case-in-point - his site is now down and he's not selling anything at all.
No doubt! (Score:2, Informative)
You can say that again:
"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."
- Dick Cheney, speech to VFW National Convention
"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
- George W. Bush, speech to UN General Assembly, Sept. 12, 2002
"The world is also uniting to answer the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq."
- George W. Bush, Nov. 23, 2002
Re:hahaha You're a sucker (Score:3, Informative)
All I did was pick out every single component I wanted and then I looked for somebody to build it for me. He even had to order the SIS 648 board because he didn't carry it. Everything I said is the damn truth though. For the same price I picked him over the competition for 7 years vs. 1 year (1 is not very customer oriented and is unacceptable for anything costing thousands), and looking back I think it was mostly because he seemed eager to build it vs. "we don't carry that yet".
Even w/o the warranty, in the end I paid him about 370 for labor, got good support, a free 40 dollar firewire card overnighted to solve a problem, etc. I had a good experience. Maybe it's because he knew after 1 minute on the phone that couldn't fool me, or maybe it's because I told him what to build instead of asking for his "standard". Or maybe, just maybe, the guy means well and knows how to build a pc, but has A TON to learn about running and esp. marketing a business. Maybe he's a pathological liar and I got off lucky because the only thing he lied to me about was the warranty since that's the only thing he COULD lie to me about. I doubt that given the card he shipped me without me asking for it. (I wanted to make the audigy port work) But I'll never know. Other than wishing to see goodness in people, I have no reason to care at this point.
Re:Lesson to learn: (Score:2, Informative)
At one point he apparently sold a phony counterfeitting machine to some poor sap for $25,000 (in 1926 dollars!). After his arrest on unrelated charges, he used another of the machines to bribe his way out of jail -- and net $10,000 from the (rather thick) sherrif in the process.
It's all in the link up there.
Er! Re:Review doesnt go far enough (Score:3, Informative)
They asked for a review unit repeatedly, were denied in person and emails went unanswered.
Not that I blame you for not reading the article, Tom only puts fifteen words per ad-page. There used to be a "Print this Article" link that would give it to you all at once, but I couldn't find it today.
Re:Tom's is going to get sued (Score:2, Informative)
1. FX-51 3400+ According to every review I've read, the FX-51 is speed rated at 3400+. Obviously there is no FX-51 that RUNS at 3400mhz, but does it say that in the add here (http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20040317/too_g ood_to_be_true-03.html)? Of course not, it simply says 3400+ which could be, and probably is, the speed rating.
The A64 FX processors don't use the XX00+ marketing numbers. He has also claimed that the processor is custom made just for him. That's just BS.
2. Currently, there are no 500GB internal desktop hard drives. Apparantly Mr. Tom needs to read the details a little more. What brand is the drive? It's a Michael's TXK drive. Hmm, sounds like Michael creates his own drive. How? Well if you use some basic logic, you can determine that this is nothing other than two 250gb drives in raid. Was that really hard to deduce Tommy? Oh, and there is nothing immoral, illegal, or fraudulent to raid two drives and then re-name them as your own. And before one of you decides to flame this post, re-read what was just said. There is nothing immoral, illegal, or frauduelnt in raiding two drives and renaming them as your own.
Here you are corrrect. He said on his site that it was a RAID array. Nothing strange there.
3. Boot time of 4s Man Tom, I've really lost all credibility for a site that doesn't know what a ram drive is. If you check here (http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20040317/too_g ood_to_be_true-02.html) you find the words "instant on" which again, further the truth that this is a ramdrive. There is another company which claims comparable numbers. I don't have the URL now but it was hosted in quite a few hardware reviews - and they use polished marble as their brand and place it in each desktop and laptop. They too use ramdrives in BOTH desktops and laptops. Granted, it's ungodly expensive to have ~4gb of ram setup with the proper software to utilize it as a ramdrive, and battery backup, but yes, this will provide instant on sub 4s boottime Tomster.
You need to get your "facts" straight. A RAM drive looses all it's information when the power goes off and needs to be reloaded from a hard drive at boot. There is NO WAY to get any pc to boot in 4 seconds. At least not into Windows.
5. .11db
So he sound dampens his shit with a hell of a lot of insulation. Big deal. Next.
I don't think you understand how low that is. He says that he uses Antec power supplies, and although they are quite, they are not silent... .11 dba would be eight times quiter than a person breathing (~10dba remember it's a logaritmic scale). That is also BS.
6. 3DMark 17k If you can't prove he didn't score this, then don't say he can't achieve it. Granted that number seems unatainable, but who knows.Yeah, and pigs can fly. 17k in 3DMark03 is not possible... The record is 10008 points and that is with an extremely overclocked P4 and extremely overclocked 9800XT.
And then there is the Windows XP 2004, claiming that the CPU has 1024 MB of cache in one email, claiming that he has won awards, claiming to have merged with vapochill...
There really isn't much truth anywhere, and I'm sorry, but I can't feel any sympathy for this man. He's just trying to screw ppl.
Re:randis $1 mil is as fanciful as your parochial (Score:1, Informative)