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Data Storage Hardware

Dell Throws In For The +R/+RW Standard 393

Posted by timothy from the mike-thinks-positive dept.
srothroc writes "Dell has been selling DVD+R burners for a while, but now they're tossing them in on free deals with some decent everyday consumer systems. I wonder if this increased support from one of two companies to pull a profit on PCs is going to tip the scale towards the +R format... If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?"
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Dell Throws In For The +R/+RW Standard More

Dell Throws In For The +R/+RW Standard

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  • Uh, they'll have DVDs that won't work on other people's computers. It's not really that big a deal. This is a weird story.

    • Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Megahurtz ( 154320 )
      More to the point, I believe the concern is about obtaining +R media should -R win the 'battle' I have used many removeable storage devices in the past, and when the 'newer-better-faster' item comes out, the media becomes scarce and expensive (should you even be able to get it at all.)

      • Re:Well... (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        It's easy to figure out which will win the battle. The one that is technically superior will lose.

      • Re:Well... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Basehart ( 633304 )
        My local Staples (North Seattle) is selling packs of 10 DVD+R from multiple manufacturers for $14.99.

        It's by far the cheapest, and most available blank DVD media format on their shelves.

        I picked up a pack thinking I'd got a great deal then realized a few hours later it wouldn't work on my Mac G4, did some research, said "duh", and replaced it with DVD-R which does work on my Mac.

        While I was there I noticed lots of cheap DVD+R burners on the shelves, and needless to say no Macs for sale, so this is
    • Uh, they'll have DVDs that won't work on other people's computers. It's not really that big a deal. This is a weird story.

      The vast majority of DVD drives (all?) will read both +R and -R, as well as most set top box players. Writing is a different matter, of course. I myself have a dual format Lite On 4x burner, so I'm covered no matter what format wins out.

      Right now, +R definitely seems to be dominating. That is kind of sad. -R media is much cheaper, and it is compatible on a slightly higher percentage o

  • d3ll 5uck5 (Score:5, Funny)

    by Deraj DeZine ( 726641 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:53PM (#7846513)
    what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?

    Dude, you're getting screwed.

    • +R vs -R (Score:5, Funny)

      by freeze128 ( 544774 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:07PM (#7846660)
      Well, I have a spot for the obsolete +R drives between my DC2120 tape drive and my zip drive.

    • Does It Really Matter? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by nick_davison ( 217681 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @05:31PM (#7848592)
      what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?

      You wait the two years that it'll take to make them obsolete and then you buy a $19.99 drive (after rebates).

      It's just the same as buying a $19.99 CD-RW now when they were $100 a couple of years ago. Prices drop. Does it really matter what you get for free now as you won't be paying current prices for a drive in two years time?

  • Neither will win. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Snover ( 469130 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:54PM (#7846523) Homepage
    Just like there were two CD-R and CD-RW "standards" that were argued over, a third standard emerged to replace them both. I imagine this is probably what is going to happen here.
    Funny how history repeats itself like that.
    • Yep. In April the dual layer DVD recorders will be out. That should shake up the ol' bananna tree.

    • *cough*
      K56Flex/X2/V90-92
      */cough*

  • Not news (Score:3, Informative)

    by noda132 ( 531521 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:55PM (#7846529) Homepage
    Dell threw in a free DVD+RW upgrade on my Inspiron 600m laptop that I bought this June.

    • Re:Not news (Score:4, Funny)

      by zCyl ( 14362 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:04PM (#7846630)
      Dell threw in a free DVD+RW upgrade on my Inspiron 600m laptop that I bought this June.

      I bet they also threw in the free chewing gum that they use to keep their display hinges attached. :)

  • Old standards. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by saintlupus ( 227599 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:55PM (#7846532)
    If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?

    Fuck 'em. My friend never got reimbursed for his choice of a Bernoulli drive, and that was a lot more than 100 bucks down the drain.

    Sometimes you bet on the wrong horse. It happens.

    --saint
    • Sometimes it pays off, too. My folks were the last of the betamax holdouts, with two betas and no VHS after EVERYONE else had converted. Their favorite rental place finally gave up the beta business and sold off their stock. My folks got something like 100 movies for almost nothing.

      Since then, they've gotten 2 VHS players, each of which sits atop its predecessor BETA in the two TV cozies they have in the house. In the interest of moving them into the '00s, just bought them a DVD player. Mom is alread

      • My folks still have their Betas. The one from the front room is now in storage, but the one in their bedroom is still in use. My dad has a large Beta movie collection (Both commercial and home) and has no interest in going through the hassle of converting them to VCD/DVD.
    • My friend never got reimbursed for his choice of a Bernoulli drive, and that was a lot more than 100 bucks down the drain.

      Um, what?

      Who is supposed to be paying him (and why) for obsolete technology?

      Really, I'd like to know, because I made this choice of an 8-track player in the '70s...

      • Re:Old standards. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) * on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:43PM (#7847029)
        Thats the point he is making. Noone should expect to be reimbursed for anything that becomes obsolete, be it because its old or because it just lost out to a different technology. If the + format does loose out to - then it isnt Dells responsability that its customers bought the kit, its the customers fault for not anticipating the fact that out of two standards, one will probably fall pretty soon.

  • Nothing Happens (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lordvdr ( 682194 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:55PM (#7846533)
    DVDs will forever READ both +R and -R. If -R were to win right now, in 1-2 years you wouldn't be able to buy DVD+R discs. That means you'd have to buy a new drive. That's not unreasonable for 1-2 years.
    • unusual != unreasonable

      Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We're already generating enough waste as a society without this sort of give-away of soon-to-be obsolete technology.

    • Re:Nothing Happens (Score:4, Insightful)

      by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @03:42PM (#7847637) Homepage Journal
      There are about 3 or 4 different footprints for portable video cameras -- HI-8 and Mini DV being the most popular nowadays, but you can still find media for the VHS-C cameras YEARS after they were replaced.

      Digital camera media is available in 6 flavors: memory stick, smartmedia, compact flash, secure digital, XD and Mini CD. You can buy any of these at your local camera shop, bestbuy, or walmarts.

      I mean, come on: you can still get discs for DVD-RAM drives, and they didn't even sell that many!

  • +R isn't going away (Score:4, Insightful)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:56PM (#7846535) Homepage Journal
    As unfortunate as that is. +R media tends to be slightly cheaper for some reason, but -R is the more compatible of the two formats. Regardless there are lots of dual-format drives being made and sold at quite reasonable prices these days, so there is no real danger that +R will disappear any time soon, though it probably should.

    • Re:+R isn't going away (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I'm so tired of hearing this compatibility argument. What's the difference? Like 2% of the market? I have a +R burner and my laptop, computer, playstation 2, dvd player, friend's dvd player, can all play the discs. The dvd+rw is a much better format for doing video editing. What I'm getting at is that most of the people complaining about their discs being compatible never had a problem but somehow think they would. Almost every new dvd player on the market can play both formats.

      However, I don't feel
    • I think you have it backwords. At least where I live the prices are always cheaper for minus Rs. As far ar compatibility I've never used a -R but I have a DVD+R(W) and the dvds I've made work on every recorder I've tried them in from a cheap APEX, PS2, and JVCs to higher end Progressive scan Denon and Onkyo units. About 15 or so different units.
    • The -R's are available in most places for well under a dollar.

      The +R's are harder to find and they cost in some cases 25-50% more. I have found only 1 place selling the +R's for $1/blank. Contrast that with -R prices.

      As to compatibility, I've found no difference in my unscientific survey between burned +R and -R.

      Frankly, the difference in blanks is significant enough that I'm thinking seriously of upgrading. But virtually every new DVD recorder these days supports both formats.

      Now the RW format is a

  • Win? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Platinum Dragon ( 34829 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:56PM (#7846546) Journal
    I get the feeling the world will move on to the next major jump in burning capacity, and probably another format war, rather than actually settle on +R or -R. Unless the industry as a whole decides on one format or the other, and decides to leave a whole section of consumers out in the cold, neither format will "win."

  • Now Dell ads are news???? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:57PM (#7846551)
    I can't believe this. Someone links to a Dell ad for a free DVD burner, and now all of a sudden, "it's a shift in the industry". What the fuck, April Fool's isn't for another few months!
    • Somebody should read the fine print in the ad too. It's not like they're giving away DVD+R burners with every computer from now on. This is a "limited time offer". Still, it is interesting that they're only offering +R drives with their systems. There's no excuse for not selling a +/- combo drive these days.

  • Bigger Issues (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ShawnDoc ( 572959 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:58PM (#7846561) Homepage
    This is minor. The real question is which DVD-HD format will become the standard. It looks like we're going to have 2 incompatible formats introduced the US, with a 3rd format introduced in China.
    • The third format in China won't matter, since they'll be too busy pirating Western stuff anyway.

    • Really, it HAS been decided... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Chordonblue ( 585047 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @03:19PM (#7847435) Journal
      HD-DVD IS the standard as proclaimed by the DVD Forum anyway. When HD-DVD is sold in the U.S. and Europe it will be HD-DVD you see in the stores - nothing else. This is what the movie manufacturers agreed on through the DVD Forum.

      My prediction is that Blu-Ray will find its niche in backup applications and video production houses. This is due to it's greater production expense (dual head for compatibility as opposed to HD's single lensing) and better media longevity (sealed discs).

      Remember Betacam Vs. VHS? It's the same thing all over again. Betacam is STILL the standard in production houses all over the world but it was VHS that ruled the home front.

      As for China's weird-ass format, guess what? No one really cares but the Asian markets and media/players/recorders will be made specifically for those markets as needed. Shocking, I know, I know. Proof? The Asian markets have been ignored by Americans before now. Take a look at the popularity of VCD players over there and you'll see what I mean. How many dedicated VCD players have you seen sold/marketed here?

  • Well, what always happens to a typical Dell user? Either they don't know better and are content with what they have, or they'll upgrade in a year or two. I don't see the problem here.

    Damon,

  • Apple method (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rosyna ( 80334 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @01:59PM (#7846572) Homepage
    I don't see why they don't just do what Apple does. Slap in a DVD-/+RW drive and just don't tell anyone. Add support to the OS and again, tell no one. Then when someone complains it's not there tell them but make sure they tell no one.

    If you have a mac running panther you can see if your DVD drive supports whatever format by typing drutil info in the terminal. OS X does not support packet writing, sadly.

    P.S. drutil stands for DiscRecording Utility
    • You Told!

      Stay where you are. Someone is coming to delete this post and re-program you.

      Apple Owners: Please ignore the ramblings of this post. The person is obviously insane from inhaling MSFumes.

      Move along. There is nothing to see here.

    • Re:Apple method (Score:3, Informative)

      by Witchblade ( 9771 )

      Interesting, but not universal. None of my Macs have dual format writers. On the new Powerbook where I'm writing this:

      Vendor Product Rev
      MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-816 DXJ3

      Interconnect: ATAPI
      SupportLevel: Apple Shipping
      Cache: 2048k
      CD-Write: -R, -RW, BUFE, Test, IndexPts, ISRC
      DVD-Write: -R, -RW, BUFE, Test
      Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, DVD-DAO

      • Re:Apple method (Score:3, Informative)

        by Rosyna ( 80334 )
        The Matshita does not, the Pioneer does.

        Vendor Product Rev
        PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-106D A606

        Interconnect: ATAPI
        SupportLevel: Apple Shipping
        Cache: 2000k
        CD-Write: -R, -RW, BUFE, CDText, Test, IndexPts, ISRC
        DVD-Write: -R, -RW, +R, +RW, BUFE, Test
        Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, CD-Raw, DVD-DAO

        Look at that SEXY baby.
      • It really depends on the machine type. Here's what my dual 2Ghz G5 has:
        Big-Bang:~ mouser$ drutil info
        Vendor Product Rev
        SONY DVD RW DW-U10A A43h

        Interconnect: ATAPI
        SupportLevel: Apple Shipping
        Cache: 8192k
        CD-Write: -R, -RW, BUFE, CDText, Test, IndexPts, ISRC
        DVD-Write: -R, -RW, +R, +RW, BUFE, Test
        Strategies: CD-TAO, CD-SAO, CD-Raw, DVD-DAO

    • Re:Apple method (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dr.badass ( 25287 )
      Slap in a DVD-/+RW drive and just don't tell anyone.

      The reason they don't tell is because that's not always true. Apple uses several different brands of drive, some of which support RW, some of which don't. Apple avoids that kind of inconsistency both for marketing and support purposes. It's easier to say "All of our SuperDrives support DVD-R." than "SuperDrives in models X, Y, and Z, revision B, built in the Fall, during the full moon, support DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-XYZ, DVD-GLTH..." and so on.

  • Cost of media (Score:2, Funny)

    by jjv411 ( 267377 )
    I am curious if there is a huge difference in the cost of the blank media. I have seen wildly fluctuating prices with the cheapest being about $0.75 for a blank DVD. Thoughts on this? Will this be a factor?
  • I have yet to encounter someone who NEEDS one of these yet. A lot want one but no one has a need yet.
    • I need one. My home directory consists of over 3 gigs of files. Backup is as simple as throwing a DVD into the burner and burning it all.
    • > I have yet to encounter someone who NEEDS one of these yet. A lot want one but no one has a need yet.

      Define "need" - does anyone need a computer at all? (Perhaps their pacemaker is run via bluetooth or something ;-))
    • I don't need one, but I hated sending out the whole "holiday/birthday/etc" videos to the family on VHS. They kept asking for the videos (though I hate making them), and they wanted them on DVD, preferably. After I got a G5 (with a DVD-R) I can make them DVDs.

      Much better? I think so. Certainly much cheaper for me!

      -WS
    • Well I NEED to archive my pr0n!!!!!!!!!!!!

      -z
    • Do you have any home videos from the early 1980s?

      If you do, you won't for long.

      VHS tapes stored in a typical house might last 10-30 years before they degrade beyond use. See this Google find [clir.org].

      At 20 C (68 F) and 50% RH, an estimated LE value of ~30 years is indicated. If the storage temperature is raised to 25 C (76 F) at 50% RH, the LE is reduced to ~10 years.

      Moving old family videos to DVD is a very reasonable home use for a DVD burner. No, no one NEEDS to save their old VHS tapes. But if people

      • Yeah and you know how many times I've felt like going back to them to watch them? Zero. They are a waste of space. Same with archiving tv shows. I used to but I realized that I never go back to watch them, so I stopped. Only thing I could possibly think of that is a legit use might be mp3's. But since mine are all ripped from cd's that I have I could just rip them again easily enough so its no big deal if they are lost.

        I never said their wasn't a use of a dvd burner, all I meant by it was that the ma

    • Wow.. (Score:2)

      by msimm ( 580077 )
      Maybe I've been living with broadband too long, but I've got at least 30 gigs of music. We have a total of 3 120 gig drives spread between 2 machines on our network and they keep pretty tight. Best use I could figure would be backing up archived TV shows (or movies). One of our PC's is the multimedia pc (MythTV based) and that one will fill up pretty quickly if I don't erase programs (I'd like to keep my Fooly Cooly episodes!).

      I'm sick, so sorry about the rambling.

      To summerize:
      1. Back up music files (
    • I sometimes make short videos to be shown in a church. The finished product is FAR too big for a CD. DVD is the only reasonable delivery medium.

  • dvd-r is as dead as possible (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:00PM (#7846582)
    dvd+r is the winner my friends.

    You already can do dvd+r at 8 speed. I still await
    8speed dvd-r.

    And around April expect dvd+rDL, that will be dual
    layers at over 8gb, that also will be READABLE by
    anything that can read dvd+r.

    And further, its rumored that some of better dvd+r
    8 speed drives will be able to burn dvd+rDL with a
    firmware update (afterall, thats what Philips
    research team did for their tests).

    enjoy living in your dvd-r world...
    • Phillips seems to be the coolest corporation ever. First they totally fuck over the asshats who make "copy protected" audio CD's by not letting them use the CDROM logo, and now they actually had the foresight to build upgradable drives... I guarantee my next drive is going to be a Phillips.

    • Re:dvd-r is as dead as possible (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      here are some links for you doubters of the
      dvd+r superiority:

      http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm [dvdrw.com]
      http://news.designtechnica.com/article1883.html [designtechnica.com]
      Phillips shows Dual Layer is possible
      and quite nicely backward compatibility
      with dvd+r readers.

      http://www.dvdrw.com/press/16x_dvdplusr.htm [dvdrw.com]
      Phillips is able to burn at 16 speed
      a dvd+r media... We already have 8x +r
      burners... Where is -R? oh, you like to wait?

      http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/8742 [cdfreaks.com]
      Sony to release dual layer bur

    • Re:dvd-r is as dead as possible (Score:5, Informative)

      by DarkEdgeX ( 212110 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @03:23PM (#7847470) Journal
      Who mods uninformed shit like this up? +R just recently got 8x burners (in the past month or so, IIRC, if not more recent). -R will be getting them in less than two weeks (Pioneer DVR-A07).

      As far as dual layer DVD+R goes, yet more misinformation. What I've read is that around 70-80% of set top DVD players will be able to play dual layer DVD+R media. I have not heard figures on the forthcoming dual layer DVD-R media and drives, but I can only imagine similar if not better results.

      Please keep your misinformation to yourself in the future, AC.
    • For us early adopters even as far back as one year ago could not know that DVD+R would pull ahead, because:

      DVD-R was first
      DVD-R was cheaper
      DVD-R media was cheaper
      DVD-R was more compatible

      So for at least two years, DVD-R had an advantage. However, given how competition works, are you saying/suggesting DVD-R won't catch up, the way DVD+R did? It's a moot point in that my next system will use whatever standard is most advantageous to me, but I do believe that competition is a good thing, and without DVD-R be
    • Funny, the industry I work in DVD+R is shunned and not even allowed anymore.

      DVD-R is the only thing accepted except for DLT Tapes already mastered.

      DVD-R is the most compatable format. it can be read in almost anything... Hell even the DVD-RW is more compatable than the DVD+R format.

      maybe in the consumer world where video is not important at all compared to a data disc +R might be making inroads, but you'll sing differently when you hand a client a DVD and your +R disc doesn't work.

      DVD-R is the only cho
      • Well, I wouldn't go so far as to make claims that DVD-R can "be read in almost anything". Believe me.... I went through a bunch of hassle trying to make a DVD movie that played back properly on the DVD players I had around here (and the ones my friends and family owned). Just for that limited scope of usage, DVD-R had issues. For one, I had a fairly expensive Toshiba DVD set-top player that didn't seem to work with any recordable media at all. My Playstation 2 would at least attempt to play movies on DV

  • Winner? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by nearlygod ( 641860 )
    How long has then "battle" been going on now? I don't see either giong away anytime soon and only after they are replaced by a new disc or medium. They will both sit around and when 1 goes so does the other. In the mean time, the combo drives that burn either format will dominate as their prices reach the same level as the format specific drives.
    • It'll be whatever the DVD-HD system provides backwards compatibility for. By the time these are released, HD media will still be super expensive, and people will want to record on cheap DVD media. Whatever media these systems support will likely be the winner, since these will be the "replacements" for the future of set-top recording.

      I'd swear the last time I read about Sony's Blu-Ray machine it didn't support + formats, and their current DVD recorder doesn't support +RW, but does support -R and +R. Bot

  • Dell is the long run... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by WEFUNK ( 471506 )
    If not, what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?

    At this point in the industry, once Dell has gone full steam ahead with their adoption of a standard like +R over -R, then I think it's not too much of a stretch to start picking Dell's choice as the long term winner. The only question that remains is how long does the long run last anymore before something new comes along?
    • You are right!

      The two largest PC manufacturer in the world (HP and Dell) adopted the +R/+RW standard. While other manufacturer, like Sony, who were on the -R/-RW standard are now producing drives that can do both format.

      The winner in the long run (if the run is long enough) will be DVD+R/+RW.

      Compatibility issues are not real issues. Both format are incompatible with some DVD player to mostly the same level. and I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, DVD player that were release in the past year are compa
    • ...or perhaps Dell just overstocked on +R drives and is now trying to liquidate them by throwing them in free as a promo...
  • There really isn't much of a "format war" going on. Most DVD devices support both formats without any problem. The rewrite media is a little less compatible but that is to be expected. Besides any new DVD burner supports both formats anyways.

    Whoever posted this should be flogged!

  • Very simple reason (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jolyonr ( 560227 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:07PM (#7846654) Homepage
    All single-format recorders, such as +RW drives, are effectively end-of-line items, so Dell can buy up inventories at knock-down prices. If they could have got -RW at a buck cheaper, they'd have gone that way, there is no other reason! Jolyon

  • It doesn't matter (Score:5, Interesting)

    by FrankSchwab ( 675585 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:07PM (#7846658) Journal
    It really doesn't. There are enough shipped DVD-R and DVD+R drives out there in the world now that you'll be able to buy media for the foreseeable computing future for either. There are enough of each out there now that your current burned DVD's will be readable forever, or at least as long at 5 inch polycarbonate disks are in use. Even the VHS/Beta battle that started 30 years ago and was, for all intents and purposes, over 20 years ago (see http://www.urbanlegends.com/products/beta_vs_vhs.h tml ) doesn't keep me from buying new blank Beta videotapes. They aren't available at Walgreen's, but can be had at larger electronics stores still. The same will be true of DVD-R and DVD+R. Can you imagine the computing landscape 30 years from now? VHS hasn't changed in that many years, but 30 years ago in the computing field is ancient, ancient history - punched cards, hard-sectored 8 inch 256KB floppies, removable disk packs, and memory capacities that didn't need to be abbreviated to be readable. The likelihood that you'll care about your DVD?Rs at that point is pretty darned low. /frank

  • Profit! (Score:4, Funny)

    by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:07PM (#7846665) Homepage
    what's going to happen to the Dell users who have all of these +R drives if it turns out that -R wins out in the long run?

    1. Ship incompatible hardware for free.
    2. Sell the compatible hardware for inflated prices.
    3. Profit!

    Seriously, Dell sells systems cheaply, but they heavily inflate their prices for components. If they can get people to enjoy the idea of burning DVDs by giving them DVD+R drives, they'll make lots of money when those customers realize that they really need to get DVD-R drives.
    • When I bought my Dell laptop, they wanted $900 for 1 GB RAM. I almost fell out of my chair when I heard that. Needless to say, I order the laptop with the stock 128 MB RAM, then ordered 1 GB from cost to cost memory for ~$150.

      In regards to the topic, I just bought a dual drive which supports all the standards. I have been buying mostly + blanks. They are pretty damn expensive right now for DVD+RW. $49 for 15. Eitherway, I use it for backups so its not a big deal. I waited for 2 years to buy a DVD bu

  • Will there be a winner? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jonbryce ( 703250 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:11PM (#7846702) Homepage
    Most of the drives I see these days support both +r/rw and -r/rw, so it is going to be pretty much a non-issue. Besides, you can generally read the other format on the other type of drive, and most people will be using them for internal use only.

    Remember 56k modems. There was US Rebotic's X2, and Rockwells K56Flex. Which one was the winner? V90.
    • > Remember 56k modems. There was US Rebotic's X2, and Rockwells K56Flex. Which one was the winner? V90.

      And when V90 won, I flashed my USR Courier to support it, and so I was a winner too :)
    • Remember 56k modems. There was US Rebotic's X2, and Rockwells K56Flex. Which one was the winner? V90.

      Neither x2 nor K56flex were intended to be permanent 56K solutions; they were stopgap measures provided until the ITU got off its ass and rolled out V.90.

      I still have the USR Sportster Voice 56K modem that got flashed from x2 to V.90...haven't fired it up in a while.

  • this is silly in multiple ways (Score:5, Insightful)

    by halfelven ( 207781 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:14PM (#7846732)
    First off, why people don't buy and use more of those multistandard units... it's beyond me. You know, those drives guaranteed to support all formats: -R, -RW, +R, +RW... They're really nice.
    I have a Sony DRU-510 burner, it supports every conceivable format, and works very well.

    Second, many units (DVD readers, not writers) that claim that they support only one standard (only -R/RW or only +R/RW) actually do work with the other standard. I don't have exact numbers, but it seems to me that the vast majority of the new drives support de facto all standards. Just try it, you might be suprised.

    Then, -R/RW has the advantage of a slightly larger compatibility. There's a lot of slightly older units that, for the majority, support only the "minus" disks.
    Every single device that i own and has DVD capabilities is multistandard (knows both "plus" and "minus" disks), however all DVDs that i create for my own purposes are -R, just because of this slightly larger compatibility.

    Finally, i wish i had a magic of sorts, to get together all those morons who are responsible for inflicting standard wars on us poor customers. Then i'll only ask to give me, for twenty minutes, a machine gun with lots of ammo. It has to be a model which withstands very long shooting sessions without melting or jamming. After twenty minutes, i'll call you to show you what machine-gun-generated meat pulp looks like. :-(
    I'm really pissed off on these stupid issues.
    • Can someone tell me why competition for formats is a bad thing?

      The conventional wisdom seems to be that Beta vs. VHS was bad, but over time the amount of money lost by those who bought into Beta is miniscule, while the competition between the two brought the VHS format into peoples' homes much faster than it would have were there no competitor in the first place.

      The same thing happened with DVD: when DivX was introduced, that lit a fire under the pants of the DVD manufacturers to lower prices and market t
  • The only computers now sold on major retailers shelves, contain either +/- or simply +. The +R media is getting cheaper and the -R more expensive. It is pretty clear where the winning standard will be. Btw Best Buy has a sale this week for a 2800+ Athlon Emachine with 512MB of RAM, a 160Gig HD, and a +/-RW burner for 599$. These prices are getting ridiculous!
  • I have a Pioneer 105 (dvd-r/-rw only) on an external FW box. I use it with Windows and my tiBook. Whenever I burn any movies at higher than 1x speed, only my Apex DVD player shows it. My Sony ejects it.

    Burning media at ever-faster rates is pretty pointless if you can't read it on your DVD player. Unless 8x DVD+r is readable on your DVD player, you have no reason to use anything other than an older and cheaper Pioneer drive like mine.

    It's not too awful to wait an hour for your disc to be burnt.

  • Not (Score:4, Funny)

    by djupedal ( 584558 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:23PM (#7846834)
    Dell, which has been providing DVD+ drives, is now providing DVD+ drives....I wonder if the fact that Dell isn't doing anything different in regards to DVD+ drives will mean anything in regards to DVD+ drives.

    One can only hope that any change in the meaning of this non-change will foster a change that may mean no change. Life as we know it could hang in the balance. Please keep us posted on further effects of anything.

  • +/- Multi-format burner (Score:3, Informative)

    by Sean Clifford ( 322444 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:32PM (#7846916) Journal
    I'm sure this is redundant, but I went for a multi-format burner; -R has better compatibility in my experience but I want to be able to run the gamut. They're cheap - got my +/- from surpluscomputers.com for US$130, choice of black or white.

    Will we ever have one standard to rule them all?

  • It's a non-issue (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mschuyler ( 197441 )
    This is just another non-issue because Dell doesn't give a rip about slashdot users, who are an extremely small percentage of the marketplace. Few people care. The largest single use of a CD/DVD is simply to load programs like your latest TurboTax or Adobe Photo Elements. Someone who really pushes the envelope may use it for backup, but that's a stretch. Who really watches DVDs on their PC? Maybe in a dorm room, but in the real world, unbless you can buy a laptop with a 50 inch screen, people actually hav

  • Why is this not standardised? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mr_lithic ( 563105 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @02:38PM (#7846969) Homepage Journal
    I know that it is good to have competition in the Computer Industry, but basic stuff like this should be sorted out by the industry and not by consumers.

    This is not BetaMax vs VHS, the media is basically the same, this is simply a format fight.

    Writable DVD's are the current new media for data storage and the manufacturers cannot figure where we will be in a year's time? This does not bode well for the long term stability for DVD data storage and needs to be sorted sooner rather than later.

  • The new Dell DVD +R/+RW drives now come with a stack sensor. When your stack gets too low, it pops up a button to order more.

    Dell has said, "Oh yea... all our free devices are ones where you can only get the supplies from us, otherwise, why would it be free?"

  • This story smells like some sort of lame attempt at free adverstising. You suck!

  • Kiss +RW goodbye (Score:3, Informative)

    by retro128 ( 318602 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @03:15PM (#7847385)
    Well too bad for those who will get stuck with those +RW drives. I predict the demise of +RW in favor of -RW. Why? Well, first of all -RW has greater compatibility. Of course, this is not enough. You must also consider the looming blue laser DVD format rolling out. As with everything, there are two standards-

    The Blu-Ray standard is being put forth by Hitachi, LG Electronics, Matsushita Electric Industrial (aka Panasonic), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung, Sharp, Sony and Thomson Multimedia. Blu-Ray will write and rewrite 27GB per side using a 405nm laser.

    NEC and Toshiba put forth their own standard, Advanced Optical Disc,which the DVD Forum has chosen over Blu-Ray [afterdawn.com]. These hold 20GB per side.

    I am seeing a lot of conflicting information about whether those numbers are for single layer or not. The people reporting these numbers don't seem to know that a single side has two layers, so I'm reading that AOD can hold anywhere from 20 to 40GB per side. However the consensus seems to be that AOD holds less data than Blu-Ray can, but the advantage of AOD lies in the fact that DVD manufacturers don't have to retool their plants for AOD like they would for Blu-Ray. This is probably one of the larger reasons AOD was accepted by the DVD Forum.

    Ok, now after all this babble about next gen DVD, what does this have to do with the subject at hand?

    NEITHER of these standards is compatible with DVD+R, and both are backwards compatible with DVD-R. So where are you going to put your data?

  • DRM guardians screwing up the media (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @03:57PM (#7847768) Homepage Journal
    The same people who are scrambling to squeeze the last pennies out of their media catalogs with DRM are the ones screwing up the usability of the media. They never figured out how to standardize audio on a DVD, even though they now distribute audio on DVD in different data formats. And now they're even screwing up the DVD media format, with incompatible DVD-R, +R, and likely more to come. This is what happens when infotainment execs get their competitive paws on the reigns of technology. They don't understand anything except keeping power concentrated in their own boardroom, even when distributing access would make them more money from a unified market. They should just treat all these storage devices are data devices, instead of branding them with a premium, at the expense of compatibility.

  • Prefer +R/+RW (Score:3, Informative)

    by TheLink ( 130905 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @04:30PM (#7848051) Journal
    DVD-R has stupid stuff like "authoring" vs "general" and so on.

    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3

    DVD-R (which is pronounced "dash R" not "minus R") uses organic dye technology, like CD-R, and is compatible with most DVD drives and players. First-generation capacity was 3.95 billion bytes, later extended to 4.7 billion bytes. Matching the 4.7G capacity of DVD-ROM was crucial for desktop DVD production. In early 2000 the format was split into an "authoring" version and a "general" version. The general version, intended for home use, writes with a cheaper 650-nm laser, the same as DVD-RAM. DVD-R(A) is intended for professional development and uses a 635-nm laser. DVD-R(A) discs are not writable in DVD-R(G) recorders, and vice-versa, but both kinds of discs are readable in most DVD players and drives. The main differences, in addition to recording wavelength, are that DVD-R(G) uses decrementing pre-pit addresses, a pre-stamped (version 1.0) or pre-recorded (version 1.1) control area, CPRM (see 1.11), and allows double-sided discs. A third version for "special authoring," allowing protected movie content to be recorded on DVD-R media, was considered but will probably not happen.

  • -R wins? Who cares? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by stuartkahler ( 569400 ) on Wednesday December 31, 2003 @05:14PM (#7848449)
    By the time either format is pushed out, dual format CDRW + DVD+/- R drives will probably be $20. By that time, nobody will complain that the free upgrade they got is now obsolete.

    BTW, the thing making either format obsolete will probably be some 30GB optical format, not competition from the other version of DVD recording.

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