The Return of S3 335
flynn_nrg writes "Just saw this article on ExtremeTech about S3's new graphics card. S3 is back on the scene with its first new GPU architecture in five years. Rather than take aim at the high-end, S3 has set its sights on the midrange price/performance category, which is currently dominated by ATI's Radeon 9600 XT and nVidia's GeForce FX 5700, both of which are under $200. Today S3 unveils the DeltaChrome S8 GPU, which represents the midrange of its upcoming line of DeltaChrome GPUs."
But wait! (Score:5, Interesting)
Good for non-graphics use - and cheap! (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, we have tons of these things and they were used back in the day when we didn't spend all of our money on expensive computer peripherals.
I would recommend using these for anyone that does not use the computer as a workstation - such as a file server or in my case, a home machine that I ssh into. Heck, I don't ever turn on the monitor quite so often for that thing.
Go S3!
S3 who? (Score:5, Interesting)
There 3d cards sucked back in 96 when I bought my S3 virge. I figured it was going to be the defacto standard since Vodoo was new and never heard of. Just upgrading to NT4 and Linux from DOS, I assumed it was up to the game makers to provide the drivers and not up to directx and opengl to provide support.
But I have upgraded to 2 newer pc's since. I forgot all about them and assumed they went under. I doubt they will support FreeBSD/Linux and X as they did in the past with their own Xserver.
I'm A Little Disappointed (Score:5, Interesting)
Overall, I have to agree with the concensus that S3 is back, and may be primed to stay in the market for some time. The article mentions that they are using a
Either way, the video card market may just be heating up for 2004.
Re:I'm A Little Disappointed (Score:5, Interesting)
Why buy mid-range? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why buy something mediocre but brand new, when you could buy something that absolutely kicked ass six months ago for a similar amount of money?
Future support? Driver updates? (Score:5, Interesting)
Flash forward a couple of years, and while NVidia and ATI are still willing to release updated drivers for their cards of that era, the Kyro lingers unsupported, even though NEC (the chip designer) and Guillemot/Hercules (the card manufacturer) are still going strong. My friend wanted to play Halo, and even though the card should've been able to support the game (albeit at a lower resolution/framerate), he can't because his card is basically ignored and unsupported by the game manufacturers and the source comapnies for the card itself.
The moral of the story: S3 is a reasonably well-known name. So is Hercules/Guillemot/NEC. It's gonna take a hell of a price/performance ratio to get me to recommend a video card not based on Ati or NVidia after the Kyro debacle.
Re:But wait! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:But wait! (Score:3, Interesting)
Where is my card? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Give us drivers... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure, that's a good answer, but I doubt they're likely to just fire all their driver staff ( even if they do deserve it ) and turn the whole thing out in the open, right? At the very least, I can't see the windows driver being replaced with an open effort ( call it cultural resistance ), and Windows is where the money is. They also need a good driver at ship time - they can't wait around while some volunteers put one together. And lord help them if there's a bad bunch of open drivers due to inadequate testing / mistakes ( hell, we all make them ), and S3 couldn't help out their customers because they don't support the driver (!!) that would be a PR blow not soon recovered from.
What I'm trying to say is that out here in Linux/BSD land, our market share is so vanishingly small that I'd be surprised if they offer a binary driver + wrapper, ala NVidia. They're going to be busy enough copping a hell of a ride from the established players.
YLFIRe:Give us drivers... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm a Linux user, and I believe in/contribute to "the open source movement". When it comes down to it, however, I care a lot more about things working right than whether or not I have the source code.
NVidia's drivers work (relatively) well, and they've been writing Linux drivers longer than most hardware vendors. For this reason, they'll continue getting my money until somebody beats them in Linux support. Maybe it could be S3.
Re:But wait! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow (Score:3, Interesting)
Back in my day we were happy to have textures...
Re:Give us drivers... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sometimes I'm reminded of why RMS draws a hard line between Open Source and Free Software. :-)
NVidia's drivers work (relatively) well
For some applications, maybe. For others, the closed drivers are clearly inferior to XFree's "nv" module. For example, if you're running Linux on non-Intel hardware, or running a non-Linux Unix on Intel, then you're pretty much out in the cold. Sure, they release a FreeBSD module every now and then, but that's no help for NetBSD or OpenBSD folks. Do they offer binaries for PowerPC Linux? I'm not sure, and not interested enough to look it up at the moment.
I'm a good programmer. I have some experience debugging hardware drivers and submitting source patches. However, if the "NVidia" module crashes, there's nothing I can do except send in a half-informed bug report and hope that enough other people gripe about the same problem to motivate someone to fix it. Remember, the FSF started as a consequence of RMS not being allowed to fix a broken printer driver. :-
So, if "work[s...] well" means "usually executes without crashing and offers decent performance", then I won't argue. However, that's not the standard of "works well" that I use for myself and my employer.
Good, there needs to be some more competition (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe now, with more competition in this segment of the market, the card makers will start putting out a good final product, and not make the buyers be the the BETA testers!
Re:hmm (Score:4, Interesting)
Observations of an insider on S3's chances... (Score:5, Interesting)
To use an overused buzzword, lets assume that the S3 chip has the best "price/performance ratio" of any chip. S3 still has little chance to gain any real market share, mostly because they have little chance to get in OEM systems.
Let me explain. The retail market (where you go to BestBuy or newegg.com) makes up a very small percentage of the overall market. I can't give real numbers (I don't know if they're NDA'd or copywritten by the research company, so better safe than sorry), but lets just say, it's the OEM sales that pay everyone's salaries and keep the investors happy.
Since OEM sales are so important, lets jump into the mind of the OEM. There are 3 major things that the OEMs care about when choosing the chip to put in their computers.
1)Does this chip perform SIGNIFICANTLY better than what we're already using?
2)Is there any benefit with using company X over company Y?
3)Are we getting a better deal from the new company?
So, what does this mean for S3 (lets throw in XGI also). To put it simply, change is difficult and expensive. Assembly lines need to be retooled, software needs to be changed and re-validated. There needs to be a good reason for an OEM to change.
Going down the checklist:
1) They do not, and never will, have a part that performs that much better than nVidia's or ATI's midrange part (if they keep the "we only want the midrange" strategy). This is because the big 2 can generate a better midrange part by either lowering the price on a higher-end part, or by tweaking the binning of the higher-end parts (a high-end part that fails may be able to run as a mid-range part). Obviously, the low and mid-range parts make up the bulk of sales (and therefore contribute most to market share), so there's no way ATI or nVidia would give up any market share without a fight...and both companies have much more ammo (graphics IP) than S3 or XGI.
2)Positive mindshare in the IT world is a HUGE thing. Most of the time it is more important than the quality of the product. Though, a good product usually generates a greater mindshare, it's not always the case (read: Microsoft...to the uneducated masses). In graphics, it's been shown that the easiest way to generate a positive mindshare is to have the fastest & most stable product. nVidia built it's reputation on it's Riva and GeForce lines. ATI got back in the game with it's 9700. For S3 or XGI to gain mindshare, it can't elicit a "ooh, it's competitive" remark. It needs a "holy shit, that's fast" remark...that or some kick-ass marketing.
3)This would have to be one hell of a deal. Switching involves a risk that they will not sell as many PCs (and make as much money) as they already are. If money alone is driving the deal, the OEM would have to feel that there is a good chance of them making more money while selling fewer PCs...it doesn't take an economics major to see what that would mean for S3's or XGI's profit margins.
So, how could S3 or XGI really take market share from ATI and nVidia? Simple, make the fastest part out there at a price that rivals what nVidia and ATI sell their high-end parts for. Can one/both of them do that? Maybe, but it won't be easy. If they can do that, then they will have a solid foundation for deriving the mid-range parts, and the mid-range parts will practically sell themselves.
Re:Give us drivers... (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to see a completely open driver from NVidia, but because of patent issues and licenses they have with other companies, it simply will not happen. Ever. But I need to do actual work on my computer that requires the use of a working graphics card, and the status of the source code is secondary to the performance of the binary.
Tech Report, too (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:But wait! (Score:5, Interesting)
Hence why S3 never really gave a rat's ass about 3d performance before. 3d is expensive to research, create, fabricate, and compete with. That's why there are only 2 players in the market and tons of little guys cranking out 2d cards. S3 would be happy to make a 2d card that can try to do a little 3d if you push it hard.
Look on the bright side though. With s3 texture compression, Quake3 and it's descendents look much better.
Re:hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
Diamond was one of the more prominent aftermarket expansion card marketer of the nineties. They were very successful selling mostly video cards, based first on S3's chipsets, which were very competitive until 3D acceleration became popular, and later nvidia and 3dfx. They branched out into a wide array of products, including SCSI controllers, motherboards (after acquiring Micronics), modems (after acquiring Supra), and audio cards. They invented the portable MP3 player, with the original Rio, and developed some of the first telephone-line and power-line home networking products. But, largely because of acquisition and competition, they were constantly losing money.
S3 was probably in a much worse bind. They were also losing money, but had none of the innovation that characterized Diamond's last years. They had been surpassed by new competition in graphics chipsets, and had no real other business. But through a lucky investment in TMSC fabrication plant, they had some cash on hand, and decided to buy out Diamond. At the time everyone assumed they were going to follow 3dfx's lead and produce sell graphics cards based on their own chipsets directly. But the truth is, they were looking for an exit both from Diamond's core computer component business, and their own graphics chipset line. After the rushed-to-market, broken, Savage 2000 was a market failure, they abandoned expansion cards entirely, throwing away the legacy of two PC hardware pioneers in favor of the Rio MP3 players, and another technology they had acquired, ReplayTV's personal video recorders. At the same time, the graphics chipset operation was spun off as a joint venture with VIA. This is what is now known as S3. The rest of the company was renamed SonicBlue. Completing the trajectory set by S3 management since the days of the Virge, they went bankrupt recently, and the Rio and ReplayTV units changed hands yet again, hopefully to more competent management. Best Data apparently picked up the old Diamond brand at the same time.
As to this new graphics chipset...I wouldn't take it seriously unless it is proven to perform decently (well, actually I wouldn't take it seriously unless it also had Linux support on par with the old Matrox card I use now, but I digress...). As far as I can see VIA is just looking for some paying beta testers to work out the bugs in the core before they embed it in their next-generation southbridge chips, so don't look for a renewed commitment to serious graphics hardware from "S3".
My ATI Radeon 9800 (Score:3, Interesting)
I think if S3 can build a card with drivers stable on the first install... they'll have my money. From what I know the latest geforce FX5900 has the same problems. It's just mind boggling having to pay so much and still dealing with such a bad out-of-box-experience.
I am playing some of the most common games (RTCWET, battlefield 1942, call of duty) and they all took a massive amount of driver tweaks and install sequence to work right. The market is flooded with premature products if you ask me.
Re:Wow (Score:2, Interesting)
Give us documentation. (Score:4, Interesting)
What's the point to not releasing documentation, when your card is not "high speed"? What you have to hide?
By opening source of drivers and releasing documentation - company could gain:
And it means money, because better drivers and better karma means bigger sell.
Re:Been there done That. (Score:5, Interesting)
One nice thing about Nvidia's driver upgrades over the years is that each release has improved the performance of damn near every card they make. My assumption is that the drivers are 50% of the card's performance..which would make sense in the context of them being unable to fully open-source the driver.
Re:Observations of an insider on S3's chances... (Score:4, Interesting)
Compare and contrast: Number of Radeons sold in boxes at retail vs number of GeForce class chips shipped in Dells. Doesn't bear thinking about. And, as we all suspected, the very high end videocard business *actually* *is* a dickwar.
The thing I don't quite get is why S3, who I think have a healthy business licensing IP into embeddded chipsets, northbridges and what have you, would want to be involved in the consumer shitfight? Probably just trying to build a little market presence, eh?
Dave
Re:S3 who? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I WOULD LIKE TO SHIT IN YOUR HAT (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:But wait! (Score:2, Interesting)
2. No. Strictly unscented soap {preferably homemade, but it depends on the quality of fire ash available}. Homemade perfume isn't hard, but the sexiest scent in nature is fresh perspiration from honest hard graft.
3. I don't own a car. I do have some gasoline-fired stuff {lawnmower, generator, strimmer} but I'm confident that I could arrange for some alternative fuel derived from alcohol and vegetable oil, if the need arose. Also, fuels and lubricants have to be made to conform to published standards. The end is not a secret, even if the means might be.
4. See 3. The "engine management systems" of my power tools consist of a carburettor for mixing the fuel with air, and a large ceramic magnet and two coils of wire on laminated steel cores for producing the spark. If and when I buy a car, a mechanical fuel pump and the ability to run on a range of fuels will be among my priorities.
5. Yes, with homemade toothpaste.
I do think very hard about what products I buy, precisely because I don't want to be beholden to corporations.
Interesting for Home Theatre Applications (Score:3, Interesting)
Indeed.
I find this card interesting for home theatre applicatons, where 3d capabilities (while nice and IMHO necessary for a complete entertainment system, including xmame and 3d simution support) don't have to be cutting-edge fast. Of particular note is this card's component output capabilities and ability to do 1080p, 1080i, 720p, etc. Right now my home theatre PC has an ATI card connected to my TV's DVI input. However, the TV only has one DVI input, while it has three component inputs, so being able to connect the computer to a component input (and free up the DVI interface for an HDTV tuner) would be nice.
Of course, until and unless there are decent Linux drivers for the hardware it will be of absolutely no interest for those of us building truly DRM-free home entertainment systems. Which is where S3, like so many others, may shoot itself in the foot (more's the pity). Here's hoping I'm wrong, and we do so solid 3d, X11, and linux driver support for the mpeg2/mpeg4 chip, tv and component outputs.
Re:But wait! (Score:2, Interesting)
Several different points and questions...
A) Who says they have this obligation?
B) I personally don't agree that I have an obligation to improve the lot of society. Does that mean you view me as inhuman?
A business should be responsible first and foremost to the people who pay its wages -- its customers.
First and foremost to its customers? Or, first and foremost to improving the lot of society, second and almost-foremost to its customers?
Your argument that "nobody is forced to buy their products" is misleading, as there is no Nationalised computer component supplier {which would have to provide full disclosure}. If every manufacturer chose to exploit their customers by failure to disclose...
Why is it misleading? You are free to buy other products, from manufacturers which provide all of the information about their products. You are free to design and create your own hardware, if you choose.
information that their customers have a right to know
You keep saying things like this, but why do you assume that the customers have a right to know?
Is some implicit right, granted to humanity, that:
A) when you buy a car, it should come with a manual full of complete specifications, from the specific mixtures of metals used in its alloys, to the microcode running on its embedded computer, so that you could build the exact same vehicle?
B) when you buy a piece of software, it should come with all of its source code and tools for building it?
C) when you buy a can of coke, or a big mac, you should get the recipe for coke, or the big mac "secret sauce"?
D) your tax dollars (presuming you are American, if not, pretend) have gone into the space program, your local nuclear power plants, and the armed forces and all of their equipment. Is the government obligated to provide you with full plans and specifications of these?
If I spend millions of dollars in research and development on some technology, why am I obligated to tell you everything I learned?
Patents can "protect" this investment in some cases, but not others.