If Microsoft Built Cars... 642
trystanu writes "If Microsoft Built Cars, occasionally your car would just die on the motorway for no reason; you'd
accept this, restart and drive on -- at least that was the joke a few years ago. ZDNET reports that Microsoft has persuaded a number of carmakers to use its slimmed-down Windows CE operating system to power a variety of in-car electronics, from navigation systems to music players to information devices. BMW, in particular, has gravitated to Microsoft systems, although the company has announced wins with Honda, Volvo and others as well. Perhaps the recent trapping of Thai dignitaries inside a BMW should be a warning to us all."
Thai Dignitary--myth busting (Score:5, Informative)
http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/systems/0,3900115
Re:It's a good fit (Score:3, Informative)
Happy? [google.com]
Re:It's a good fit (Score:3, Informative)
As far as add-on electronics goes, I'm not going to void my warranty by plugging in my cell-phone into my car. But with aftermarket products, have them professionally installed. Otherwise it'll get ugly if you have a failure relating to that aftermarket product. Ugly for your pocketbook that is.
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
They must use some piss-poor shielding on their electronics if they are really worried about induced currents from a hand-held phone causing any problems.
Either that, or they want to scare people into buying a BMW blessed carphone from a dealership, which is much more likely.
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
In the US, it's called the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975. Google for it. It specifically prohibits product tying for warranty claims. They cannot deny your claim because you used an unapproved cell phone. There's a number of other provisions in MM that BMW seems to be trying to ignore.
Temkin
Re:NOTE TO SELF (Score:1, Informative)
For example, BMW will not sell a service manual to an end user. Nope. You have to be an officially authorized repair shop in order to purchase a service manual.
Replacement parts are sky high in price. Example: new head lamp - $120, New ignition wires $230. About 10 times the price you'd pay for a part for a normal car.
Another example: BMW instrument clusters are powered by rechargeable nicad batteries. These batteries eventually die. But they will only sell you a complete new computer, not the replacement batteries. The nicad batteries are soldered to the motherboard. No problem, right? WRONG. You have to take off the steering wheel, and disassemble the dash board to get access to the cluster computer. This is not fun. I do not recommend trying this at home.
BMW is without a doubt, the most fucked up of all the automobile companies. They are a PERFECT match for Microsoft. If you do your own maintenance, you will rue the day you ever bought a BMW.
Re:If if if (Score:4, Informative)
The sad part was they tied it to the propulsion. When the computer crashed, the jet would simply shutdown and at 20,000 feet things could get interesting.
Ironically, the manufacturer provided restart instructions for the computer and claimed this was perfectly 'normal'. I don't believe this ever moved past the prototype stage.
Honda (or at least Acura) doesn't need MS (Score:3, Informative)
I've also seen the navigation systems in both BMW's and Benz's, and both of them need to become much more user friendly, so I can see them asking Microsoft for help.
No Microsoft products in security related devices (Score:5, Informative)
Embedded != Embedded. MS products maybe used in cars, but largely in the "infotainment" sector.
WinCE is much too big for the tiny microcontrollers that control engines, breakes, gear shifts and so on.. As is Java.
If you want to really what going on in car electronics look for example for the OSEK/VDX initiative [osek-vdx.org], a consortium of german and french carmakers.
Re:Posters Should Read the Links They Provide (Score:3, Informative)
Grab.
Re:Trapped OUTside a locked car? (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA (Score:1, Informative)
Then again, it's a truth that doesn't paint Microsoft in a bad light so I suppose it has no place on
Re:Old MS car joke... (Score:2, Informative)
In addition, the moderation system takes time. Of course he will be only at +2 for a while or so after posting since fewer people will have actually seen his comment. Comments like yours stick around, just waiting for people like me to proclaim your ignorance of how things work.
Also, for your information, the +1 doesn't go away when you use it. You still get to keep it unless you constantly post worthless comments. Which, incidentally, is why you will never even get the +1 modifier.
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
Evidently you did not read the report [zdnet.com.au] that stated that only 50% of Windows crashes were due to such problems. By implication, the other 50% are due to Windows itself.
Re:Thai Dignitary--myth busting (Score:2, Informative)
What do you mean "So what?"
BMW, in particular, has gravitated to Microsoft systems, although the company has announced wins with Honda, Volvo and others as well. Perhaps the recent trapping of Thai dignitaries inside a BMW should be a warning to us all.
Given the title and the rest of the summary that last sentence totaly implies that Microsoft was to blame for the problem. It's misleading, biased and completely worthless, that's what.
"Does that suddenly mean that Microsft's 20+ year record of buggy, unreliable, insecure software just vanishes? The lession was not about what system the car was using but what can happen if systems fail on a modern, particularly a modern bullet proof, car. Why would anyone want to risk using the world's most famous failed OS in such circumstances?"
That's a totatly illogical statment. I don't use microsoft products for my own reasons, however i'm not so much of a fool as to assume that everything they've produced for the last 20 years is "buggy, unreliable, insecure software" that's just being obtuse and not judging software by it's own merits.
The systems aren't running a desktop Windows, and the Dignitary was not traped in his car by a microsoft product.
The enginers who are evaluating the software to use probably know a hell of a lot more about it's relablity than yourself.
BMW has not gravitated towards MS systems, for now (Score:2, Informative)
MIcrosoft (Score:1, Informative)
Re:except the BMW 7-series is practically undrivea (Score:5, Informative)
BMW's newer models were not nearly the only bad examples.
Trying to discover where they've hidden some control in an N-level-deep menu tree is extremely distracting. You don't want this when you're driving.
Of course, if you screw up, the manufacturer will just call it an "operator error".
Re:Music Players? (Score:3, Informative)
Probably pretty good. While reading the ZDNet article, I followed the link to the Court to FBI: No spying on in-car computers [com.com] article (emphasis mine):
No privacy issues involved, it's that the idiots might break the bugging system. (Which includes turning off the emergency road assistance and airbag functions, by the way, but we wouldn't be spying on them unless they were already guilty, right?)
The US Government is moving very consistently toward monitoring and controlling everything they can lay their hands on, so the idea that the "copyright bit" or other DRM will follow us into cars certainly seems inevitable.
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
" Ironically, 50,000 people die every year from Automobile accidents and no one looks to blame Ford or GM for these deaths."
That is just not true. Automobile manufacturers are sued for damages created by crashes routinely. Furthermore, they are subject to Federal regulation of safety equipment and must recall defective models.
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
Windows crashing problems are due to operator error from installing bad drivers (from other manufacterers), installing bad hardware, installing crappy software.
Two points:
1) You just listed three things that are NOT the operator's fault. Why call them operator errors?
Did the operator write the buggy driver? Did the operator know the driver was buggy? Did the operator know the software package had a fatal flaw? I know your point is that they aren't Microsoft's fault, but that doesn't mean they are the operator's fault either.
2) In the case of drivers, yes it's reasonable to expect that a third-party driver can crash the system. But in the case of higher-level software, it IS the operatiing system's fault that it allows crappy software to crash the system. That's evidence of crappy security in the OS.
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
The number one reason is that each BMW vehicle has a personalized wiring system. Each vehicle receives a different wiring harness based upon the features and options in that specific vehicle. In other words, if one 325i has an auto dimming mirror and another does not, the entire wiring harness is different between the two vehicles.
Keep in mind that the wiring harness is like the electrical backbone of the car, weighs about 50 pounds, and runs contiguously from one end of the vehicle to the other. It is NOT something you want to mess with unless you really know what you are doing. In fact, if there is ever a problem in the wiring harness BMW recommends putting in a new one.
That brings me to reason number two. Alot of your aftermarket companies hire morons to install their electronics. I know this because I see it all the time.
For example, we had a customer buy a brand new M3 convertible (~$60K american) and they installed one of those Viper alarms that tells you to "Get BACK!" when you go near the car. The guy that installed it had the great idea of yanking out the headlight control module, chopping a piece out of the wiring that controls the headlights and splicing in there to get power for his alarm. Needless to say the car was NOT OK after this. Starting the vehicle would cause the headlights to freak out...they would switch on and off randomly. To make matters worse, the malfunction caused the autoleveling feature to kick in and make the lights to bob up and down.
This led to a cluster-f$#k with the customer and the service department. The customer was pointing fingers and yelling at the sales and service staff about what a piece of krap the car was and such. Things were pretty bad until we pulled out the light control module and showed them where the aftermarket guy had spliced in to the light system and where the control board had gotten fried.
I personally think the whole reason for the sticker is because BMW wants to maintain the integrity of the electrical system in the car and to make sure people understand that if their aftermarket device screws something up BMW is not gonna pay for it. Bmw even goes so far as to place prewiring jacks in the cars for most aftermarket devices you could want: bluetooth, satalite raio, mp3 players or line in devices for the stereo, phones, alarms, cd changers, and even Universal RF transcievers (programmable garage door opener).
You could even chalk it up to those strict German engineers if you want. God knows they hate it when people mess with their systems.
Re:hooray for MS (Score:3, Informative)
Re:If if if (Score:1, Informative)
While this scheme does not alleviate faults, it greatly reduces the impact of resets during flight. The cause of the problem is more likely bad non-Microsoft avionics code.
Lawsuit bait (Score:5, Informative)
Software manufacturers have been immune from this before, because everyone "knows" that computers are unreliable and crash. A jury isn't going to care that your desktop burst into flame and lost all your data. That's state of the art in the zeitgeist. But juries drive cars and are more sympathetic to claims against their makers. Do you want to be defending Microsoft when the other side shows the birthday party videos of the little girl who was immolated in the fiery wreck caused by your software?
Re:State of Software Sucks (Score:4, Informative)
Of course, Microsoft is saying currently that WinCE is aimed at navigation and media playback, not embedded control. That wasn't always their shtick, however, as when they started this initiative they cited "better safety and security," along with reduced hardware duplication as a reason to use WinCE for all of your machine's needs. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but they truly wanted to be a central controller for the machine.
My mother dated a vehicle development engineer who created system diagnostic software for 5 years.
Bogus claims (Score:3, Informative)
Could Microsoft make mission critical software with uptimes measured in years (like QNX or unix)? Yes, I believe they could, but they will not do so until the market stops buying stuff that needs daily rebooting. MS will also have trepidation entering any line of business where liability cannot be avoided by some hokey EULA. I predict they will bail out of the auto market when they start getting nailed by lawsuits over car crashes from use of the computers they want to install in cars. The software in cars is far more stable than the stuff in desktop computers. And far less infested with security defects than Outlook.
Most US carmakers include language in their purchasing contracts that lets them license patents and trade secrets for free (to competitors) if the original supplier cannot (or will not) meet quality or delivery schedules (and prohibits the supplier from sueing over it). Somehow, I predict MS won't be interested in working with such companies.
Re:If Microsoft built cars.. (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.daihatsu.com/
Re:lubrication (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hmm... (Score:3, Informative)
There is still a driver though, unlike the DLR in London.
The guy sits there to make sure that people are clear of the doors etc before he presses a green button. He also holds another button down to keep the system under computer control like a dead man's handle.
So, basically, the human is there to make sure nothing goes wrong, but otherwise the computer is in control.
Advantages of this system is a wonderfully smooth ride - the computer is programmed to take off and stop in smooth motions rather than the sometimes jerky stopping/starting that humans do.
The other advantage is that if anything DOES go wrong, a human is there watching everything to pull the plug if needs be.
Right way to do things I think. The Japanese have their heads screwed on tight when it comes to public transport...