New High-End HP Calculator?

mschaef writes "There's a pretty convincing looking story over on hpcalc.org describing a new high-end HP calculator. The bottom line: 75MHz ARM9, USB Port, IrDA compatibility, 128x80 display, and a slot for SD cards. It also looks like the same basic software is running, either ported or via emulation of the venerable Saturn (HP-propriatary) CPU. The full story is over at HPcalc.org. It's good to see HP back in the game (hopefully) like this."

Reliability?

[dave_f1m]

Great, but can I treat it like a hammer, and still have it work? You know, grab it, punch out a few calculations, and toss it aside without much care where it lands.

Is there a market still?

[SecMF]

With PDAs becoming faster and more capable, is there still a market for plane calculators? Palm (and others) must have tons of (free) software to do the same with your PDA.

Time to upgrade?

[dbowden]

When I was younger, the rule I followed was to always upgrade to the next generation of calculator after I'd understood all of the functions of the previous one.

Is it time to go to this one yet?

No... I'm still doing fine with my old 28S [hpmuseum.org]

Does this mean I have to replace my 48GX?

[groove10]

That is still the ultimate "nerd" calculator. Came in a zipper pouch, had a slot for expansion cards, and like all decent calculators worth their circuits, used Reverse Polish Notation.

I remember many an hour wasted in class playing Columns or Arkanoid or Crazy Cars.

Before there was Palm Pilot for looking like you were doing work, there was the HP48GX!

Re:Is there a market still?

[larien]

I'm sure some people still prefer to work with real, physical buttons rather than a touch screen. Also, you can get more detail on buttons when you don't have to rely on a 320x480 (or smaller) screen.

If you're using a calculator enough, it will be better to have one of these rather than a PDA masquerading as a calculator. Also, if all you need is a calculator, you might as well get one of these which will probably end up cheaper than a PDA.

Why SD???

[Compact Dick]

I hate Secure Digital for two reasons:

1. More expensive than Compact Flash.
   
2. DRM features, which means lesser available memory.
   
3. Too tiny for comfort - yes, there is such a thing.

I'll be much happier when they add a CF slot [even better if it replaces the SD slot.]

Re:Is there a market still?

[afidel]

lack of numberic keypad makes it WAY too slow for real heavy duty use, add in the fact that there is no symbolic logic package for a PDA that I am aware of and you can't compete with calculators like this. (btw the Ti-89 is basically Maple in firmware, Ti hired the guys behind Maple to write all the software for it). IF there were a symbolic logic app for Palm or another PDA then it might compete, but you would still have to deal with the slow input, and I can guarentee the app would not be free.

Building a better calculator...

[xaoslaad]

...only builds better idiots. I almost fell out of my chair three weeks ago when my professor said we are not allowed to use calculators in his Calculus II class.

And while I would not exactly say I am doing good in his class at this point, I am learning and just plain realizing things that I should have learned eons ago. The problem was that it was always more convenient to mash the keys on a calculator than to just think.

Re:Why SD???

[Richardsonke1]

Maybe it's because CF is 10 times as big as SD and they need to save space? That's my guess. They don't really care how much you will have to pay for the cards, that's your deal. If you want extra storage space, you'll buy a card.

Why a PDA won't replace the calc...

[dillkvast]

... at least until some vendor provides mathematical sofware for the PDA.

The software in todays calculators are capable of pretty advanced mathematical opererations, including advanced calculus, matix operations, statisics and complex math. Until sombody creates an equally good mathematics software suit for PDA's these things will still be around.

Another thing is QA. How are we to be sure that some program we downloaded to our PDA does the calculations correctly. When you buy an advanced calculator you can be pretty confident that the different mathematical functions has been thoroughly tested. Since the key sellingpoint of a calculator is the ability to, well, calculate, the vendor has probably gone to some effort to ensure that it is infact capable of doing that correctly.

HP vs. TI vs. computers vs. PDA....

[Kid Brother of St. A]

The calculator looks nice, but I think HP may have a hard time finding a market for it. In fact I wonder if any effective market niche still exists for non-Texas Instruments high-end calculators. The education market -- high school and college math/science students -- is pretty well ruled by TI and has been for years since TI came out with the TI-92. Nearly all of the calculator-oriented curricula out there is designed specifically for TI calculators. And part of this is HP's fault -- when the TI-92 came out, a colleague of mine was at a math teachers' conference and asked HP if they had anything coming out that could compare with it, and their answer was a resigned "Nope". And for years, the textbooks and lab supplements went specifically toward TI machines because nobody else bothered to keep up with them. Although this machine does compete with TI's, it seems, I think there is just too much brand loyalty and curricular momentum in the education market towards TI for HP to make a dent.

The only thing that's successfully competed with TI calculators has been computer algebra systems (you can get a good, cheap CAS program like Derive -- another TI product, by the way -- for $99 for the student version and $199 for the professional version) and PDA scientific calculator programs. Existing hardware and software is more flexible and less expensive than this new HP. So if this isn't intended for the student market, I wonder who it is intended for, and if it'll actually sell once it's out.

There sure is

[Andy Dodd]

I have a Palm that can do HP48 emulation (to some degree). It also has its own custom RPN calculator.

Can't touch my HP48GX - You can emulate buttons in software all you want, it will never compare to the nice buttons of the 48.

Point being?

[Anonymous Coward]

How many points of similarity are there if you compare your IBM-Compatible keyboard to your Mac-keyboard, and what meaningful conclusions can be drawn from that?

Re:Building a better calculator...

[aunchaki]

And while I would not exactly say I am doing good in his class at this point, I am learning and just plain realizing things that I should have learned eons ago. The problem was that it was always more convenient to mash the keys on a calculator than to just think.

I couldn't agree more. Calculators are great, but we need to start using them after we've mastered the old-fashioned way rather than instead of mastering the old-fashioned way.

A few years ago, I studied for and took the MCAT (the test required to get into med school). There's a lot of math in the various science problems (physics, p-chem, o-chem, biology) and you MUST do it on paper. No calculators allowed. I approve!

Re:Reliability?

[Dan Ost]

I've had my 48GX for almost 10 years. It has fallen off desks and out of trees,
been crushed at the bottom of a backpack countless times as the backpack was
tossed into a corner (pretty close to your hammer behavior), been rained on, and
still shows no sign of wear except for the rubber feet which are somewhat worn
from use on concrete.

The 48GX meets my needs and until it stops working, I'm not going to replace
it with anything. However, if this new calculator is built with the same solid
construction and has the same wonderful user experience, then I would have no
any problem recommending it to people.

Another lemon? I'll use a laptop instead.

[PudriK]

I covetted my 48G in high school. The ability to store data, make simple programs, RPN, and the equation/constant library were powerful tools. Everybody else used TIs. In college, I convinced a EE buddy to buy a HP48, and he was much happier with this choice.

They announced the 49G when I was in m last year of college. I was excited. The 48G with a CAS! Instead, what a disappointment! Stiff keys, constant need to upgrade the software to fix bugs (through a cable I had to jury rig from an old serial mouse cable, because it didn't come with one), no equation library, and the frequent pauses in the software in the middle of simple calculations. And the OS, especially the way the memory was handled, was cumbersome and confusing. Same screen and same slow processor. Not a purchase decision I'm proud of.

Given their recent history, I have a lot of reservations about the quality of this product, and doubts that they will make any inroads into the education market. Once again the screen and processor seem to be stuck in the past.

HPs used to be THE calculator for engineers. I'll still use my 49G for classes where computers are not alowed, but for everything else, I prefer MATLAB. Although it is a lot more expensive, MATLAB, MathCAD or Mathematica on a small laptop seems to me like the ideal tool for the modern engineer.

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Re:Building a better calculator...

[TrekkieGod]

Building a better calculator only builds better idiots.

That statement is so single-minded, it's almost like something I would say...except I'm single-minded in the other direction this time around, so I have plenty of stuff to argue.

Ever think about all the people not in school? How efficient is it for an engineer to whip out pen, paper, and an sliderule?

What about calculus? No calculators in classes like that piss me off. Don't get me wrong, I'm for a calculus class that only allows a scientific calculator, so you can't use your TI-89 to whip out complicated anti-derivatives for you, but requiring you to spend more time working on arithmatic using scratch paper than the calculus in your exam is ridiculous.

Building a better calculator helps those that have already learned their stuff. It doesn't mean that you should always use the best calculator in a learning environment, but there's nothing wrong with their existence.

Re:Is there a market still?

[Hes Nikke]

i dunno, i use an HP 48GX [mobilevoodoo.com] on my Clie and and the only problem i have with it is that it has to load every time i start it. - 20-40 sections are wasted every time!

now if only i could beam the software from my physical HP 48GX.... :\

$200?!? What's wrong with a Pocket PC?

[iamhassi]

$200 for a graphing calculator? What is this, 1991? I can buy a 400mhz Pocket PC [pricegrabber.com] for $219 with 64megs, wifi, CF & SD slot! With that I have a large assortment of graphing calculator programs [5star-shareware.com] I can choose from or just emulate the 48e [web.jet.es], in addition to all the other things a PPC can do.

HP needs to just call it quits and make a decent graphing program (or official hp emulator) for PPCs and sell it for a reasonable price (say, $49.95). Heck of a lot cheaper/easier/more profitable than producing hardware, just ask Sega.

Re:$200?!? What's wrong with a Pocket PC?

[Sanction]

What's wrong with PocketPC? I actually tried using one, for a calculator as well as in general, and the answer is that a lot is wrong. The big issue is, of course, no keypad. Fast, efficiant data entry is impossible on the very tiny PPC screen tapping with a stylus. A calculator that takes two hands and visual focus on the screen (instead of the information you are entering) to use is virtually useless for many applications.

The PPC also has issues of reliability with fairly delicate hardware contrasted with much tougher (mainly due to simplicity) calculators. The calc is instant on, and never requires closing apps to free enough memory or even the 3 seconds to switch to the calculator app. Battery life is another issue. Most PPCs will only give you around 4 hours of heavy use, and with the models I have been issued can be an optomistic estimate. They also require frequent charging. When you use a calc a lot, you can't wait a few hours for charging after you've been using it a while.

For a person who uses a calculator a couple of times a month, there are excellant emulators on the PPC (and one on PalmOS, where someone could get a faster seeming, sturdier device with much longer battery life to run it) that could substitute. For anyone who uses a calculator for serious work in school or in their job, it just isn't up to the job.

Oh, and it is profitable. The HP12C is the standard calculator in the financial industry (though TI is making inroads, finally), sells for $70, and the design hasn't changed since 1981. They make stacks of money off that one. Calculator hardware can be profitable, it just has to be the perfect tool for the job.

TI vs. HP ...the epic engineering student debate..

[V_drive]

Having attended (and completed) an engineering college, TI vs. HP was a topic of moderately fierce debate (akin to VI vs. Emacs). Overall, mechanical engineering students preferred TI while Electrical and Computer Engineering students preferred HP. I think a lot of it had to do with the HP's great interface for handling complex numbers (which Electrical/Computer Engineering students need to do lots of), but the HP's had much more of a learning curve. You had to learn how to 'think' in HP, which was not always comfortable at first, but I would stack up my ability to crunch through calculations with an HP to anyone with a TI.

VI vs. Emacs probably isn't a fair comparison. It's more like VI vs. MS Notepad. Ever try to convince a Windows diehard why VI is better than notepad? That's what it's like trying to convert at TI user to HP.

Re:Building a better calculator...

[borgasm]

Well, you should know how to do basic Calculus before resorting to a calculator.

I know how to do derivatives, integrals...etc...but the human mind is far from perfect, and always makes mistakes. I use my TI on problems that make no sense doing out by hand. A triple integral? Why bother if you know the basics - you are just doing redundant math and wasting your time.

If you know how to use a hand powered drill, why would you choose that over an electric?

Re:Time to upgrade?

[White Shade]

I own a ti-85 and a ti-86. ... Both of them have lots of nice features, but I generally prefer the 86 simply because the 'basic'-alike programming language is a lot less rigid; variable names can be many characters long, you can type in commands letter-by-letter rather than having to go through menus, etc etc. .. The menus in general are a lot nicer than the 85 too. Overall it's quite a nice little device. I only wish the 86 supported all the statistics functions that the 85 has (which is why i had to buy an 85 in the first place).

Re:Cheating in Exams?

[Listen Up]

As a mathematician, "real" math most certainly requires a fantastic calculator. For some examples:

1) Numerical Analysis
2) Differential Equations
3) Linear Algebra Systems
4) Discrete Mathematical Systems
5) Finite Analysis
6) Probability
7) Statistics

And a hundred more "real" mathematical systems which require a calculator. If you refer to "real" math as symbolic only, which is my passion in life, then no, you don't use a normal calculator. But, the use of a symbolically solving calculator can prove to be invaluable in an almost infinite number of ways.

Re:Yes, but does it use RPN ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The 48/49 series and their predecessors all the way back to the 28C and 18C use what's called RPL, informally referred to (but not officially) as Reverse Polish Lisp. It's a bit different from old style RPN such as in the 35 through the 41, in that the stack height varies, from zero levels (empty stack) to as many levels as needed and as memory will hold. Which one is "right" depends upon what you're trying to do. Old timers tend to like the old style. There's an exception: the 42S was written in RPL but emulates old style RPN. For those preferring the latter, the 33S, which is the successor to the 32S II, should nicely fill the need.

Re:75MHz

[the eric conspiracy]

why does a calculator need a 75MHz processor.

Probably because it is going to run an emulation of another processor.