Lexmark DMCA Case Winds On 353
The EFF filed a brief (brief, press release) in the ongoing case over Lexmark incorporating copyright-protected code in their printer cartridges in order to prevent competitors from producing compatible cartridges for their printers. The BBC notes some of the harmful effects of lack of competition in the industry.
Here's a thought... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2)
It's almost worth the extra few bucks to buy the new printer so you don't have to worry about making sure you bought the right cartridges.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:5, Informative)
Wrong. The ink cartridges, IIRC, hold 680 mL of ink (one of six colours for this model), and I believe that we've changed out only 2 of the individual cartridges in the 7+ weeks we've had the printer. And we've been using it a lot.
Now, to be completely fair, we cannot use any other type of ink in this, as it will only take the HP inks. But when I replaced one of the cartridges last week, the old one was practically bone dry. It will print until it runs out of one of the inks, but it will only warn you about low ink, not stop printing altogether.
Kierthos
DesignJet 5500 Ink Usage (Score:4, Interesting)
.:diatonic:.
Re:DesignJet 5500 Ink Usage (Score:3, Informative)
.:diatonic:.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Informative)
Better yet - buy it from Best Buy and get the service plan. I do this for most everything and I put it in my calendar to "break it" just prior to the expiration. Since most new electronics are CRAP, I usually don't have to worry about this. I just did this with my cell phone (that legitmately failed after 2.5 years). Because they don't repair things anymore and because they don't carry the ph
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Interesting)
I bought a VAIO from Best Buy, and bought the extended warrantee to go along with it. A year or two later, the keyboard started to die, one key at a time. I got it replaced, after getting proper authorization. I was instructed to pay for the repair, and forward the bill. I did so. That was a more than year ago. Despite repeated phone calls and emails, I'm still trying to collect the payment. I'm out $175.
As far as I can see, they're runnin
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Insightful)
However, if you buy the cheapest of cheap inkjet printers.. what do you expect!?
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to work for a network install/maintainance firm, and being the youngest had to go out and fix any printer problems.
HPs pulled apart fine, so did Epsons. I can still stip a LJIII in under 3 minutes! Lexmarks however were all, without exception, cheap plasticy lumps of rubbish - fix them and they would break again in 10 minutes, even the business models.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2, Funny)
Does this mean that in Soviet Russia I rule the printer? Damn capitalism.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:5, Insightful)
The crux of the Western economy (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you very much. You just revealed the deep, dark secret of the Western Economy. All the work "they" have done to keep it secret and you went and blew the cover.
Most people are dumb, and want to stay dumb. If you make it easy for them to stay dumb, they will pay you money for it.
This has the benefit of making sure they never have enough money to move out of the middle class.
Re:The crux of the Western economy (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you. Really, I do. I had a friend who was fond of adding the addendum that, if you assume that the average person is dumb, then it is implied that about 50% of them are even more stupid than that.
However: do you know how to repair your car? How about the electrical wiring in your house? Your plumbing? Garbage disposal or washing machine? How about the central air, or the oil heater? If you do, then you're a better woman/man than I. If you don't then you are, by your own logic, dumb. You're paying someone else what are most probably obscene prices to fix something that you could easily fix yourself, if you simply weren't too lazy to go figure it out. A lot of these things aren't rocket science.
That's me in a nutshell. Some things, I have enough interest in to invest the time to do research and make sure I have enough information to make an informed decision. For everything else, I choose that which is most convenient (within reason). I use telephones a lot, but I'd honestly rather spend the few hours it would take to research a new phone purchase doing something -- almost anything else. Heck, I paid someone to paint my house one summer, and I've painted houses before.
However, this, in itself, is not sufficient to prove the theory that people are dumb, or even lazy. Myself, I rely on empirical evidence for proof of that.
Re:The crux of the Western economy (Score:3, Insightful)
I can do all of the things you listed and recently I have..
However when things were good and I was billing 2000 hours a year, it was well worth the cost to pay someone else to do the work. Now that things are slow, I changed out the water heater myself, saved $300 in labor and markup and it's done right. Same goes for fixing the cars, did an inner tierod replacement and power steering pump replacement recently, it would have cost $1000 to have it done by a mechanic, but
Re:The crux of the Western economy (Score:3, Interesting)
And the Eastern economy does not do this? or at the very least prevent the masses of people from increasing their standard of living?
I agree with what you are saying, but it is hardly a western phenomenon. In fact, I would say it is decidedly an EASTERN phenomenon as controlling social class in an organized fashion really began with the Hindu Caste system in India.
Re:The crux of the Western economy (Score:3, Interesting)
The concept of class as you are describing it is a capitalist/communist way of looking at it. In a caste system, certain people depending on birth have specific functions in society. In a strict caste system, there aren't really classes, and there is pretty much no mobility as birth has always been the deciding factor.
In the end however, anyone wr
Re:Here's a penny... (Score:2)
I informed a coworker about Firebird (the browser) and how I haven't seen a popup, popunder, or the like for a year. She didn't even know what a browser was.
Why question? It's just the way things are. Ugh. Four more years... ;)
If this lawsuit is won by Lexmark, does that mean that Ford can sue to stop 3rd party parts manufacturers?
Re:Here's a penny... (Score:2)
Only if those 3rd party manufactured parts contain copyrighted material, such as computer code, and Ford has not authorized 3rd party use of that material.
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Insightful)
Consumers are now shopping for printers based on the price of the ink cartridges first.. capabalities second...
Why get sucked into the $39.00 printer when the cartridges for one year will cost you $300.00?
Buy the $259.00 canon and spend only $60.00 this year on ink... buy a new printhead every 2 years if you abuse it.. I have a older canon that STILL prints perfectly on it's origional printhead f
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe I am just in a crotchety mood today, but this seems pretty unfair. Just because people don't want to educate themselves on a topic that happens to interest us doesn't make them lazy. We all have multiple demands on our time, and we have to file a lot of things away in the "I have no time to think about this" file in order to have time to think about the things
Wat printers can be easily/cheaply refilled? Dell? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have avoided owning an inkjet because of the unreasonable consumables costs. I am glad that the EU will be investigating the cartel of printer manufacturers for illegal price fixing.
If I were to purchase an inkjet, which model can be easily and cheaply refilled, and carries a durable printhead?
I'd like to buy the ink by the liter, and I'd like the color match of the ink to be reasonably close to the OEM cartriges.
Also, wasn't Dell going to enter this market and cut the price of the consumables?
Re:Wat printers can be easily/cheaply refilled? De (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wat printers can be easily/cheaply refilled? De (Score:4, Informative)
Canon.
Canon was, AFAIK, the first inkjet company to have four seperate ink tanks and a seperate head. The prices are reasonable, the quality is good, and the consumeables are fairly priced. (A bit more per page than b&w laser, but still good.)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:2)
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Insightful)
as long as Canon and HP et al aren't pulling these type of stunts, won't the market take care of this itself?
And if Lexmark wins, what would stop the other manufacturers from doing the same thing Lexmark does? When things like the DMCA are created, it can upset the free market. A free market requires free choice if it is to weed out the 'bad' products from the 'good.'
Re:Here's a thought... (Score:3, Insightful)
Neither I nor my company have purchased Lexmark products since they brought up this ridiculous lawsuit, and I've written them letters to inform them of the fact. If you've made a decision to use other vendors, please let their management know about it. A boycott has no effect if they can blame it on a bad economy in order to stick with their
Here's a *better* thought... (Score:5, Interesting)
A while ago, I modified an Epson to use large generic ink from a bottle (500mL each color). The printer dies before the ink ever ran out. Perhaps someone could manufacture a disposable printer? Just fill it with a crazy supply of ink and lock that bad boy up.
This $50/cartridge thing has to stop sooner or later. Some manufacturer will realize that consumers will *pay* for a quality piece that doesn't institute the Gillete sales model.
Re:Here's a *better* thought... (Score:3, Insightful)
Good point, I just paid $8 for 4 razor blades 2 days ago and they're pushing the "extra lube strip" model for almost $10 for 4. Now back to the topic
I think of the printer biz like the video game console biz. There's zero margin on the printers and fat margins on the ink. They could chose to make $20 on the printer sale and not play the ink game -or- make $0 on the printer and $20 every 3 months on ink sales. The ink biz is where it's at, and if they can ensure a m
Waiter ! (Score:5, Funny)
This works out at £1.70 per millilitre
1985 Dom Perignon costs 23p per millilitre "
-"We will have 1 bottle of HP Blue 2003 please"
Re:Waiter ! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Waiter ! (Score:3, Funny)
"Wow, it's sparkling! And has a subtle class-based depression about it...But, how...?"
"My new Colt45(TM) printer! It's one color, but it works every time"
Copy Protected Cartridges (Score:5, Interesting)
Completely Legal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Completely Legal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Completely Legal (Score:2)
Re:Completely Legal (Score:2, Informative)
Last time I checked, there were no statements on the boxes that declared that the printer could not be used with third party cartridges.
Re:Completely Legal (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Completely Legal (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Completely Legal (Score:2)
I'm no Libertarian but IMHO it's perverse to shrug this off as "it's a free market". A not free market. A free market is where Lexmark gets to sell its printers at the price it likes (below cost or whatever), and if the competition can reverse engineer them cheaper, they get to do so.
Re:Completely Legal (Score:2)
IMO, anyone buying computer hardware gets what they deserve if they don't take the time to read the plethora or reviews available. CNet.com, for example, points out that while Lexmark printers are among the cheapest, their ink cartridges have the highest cost per page by a considerable margin.
That turned me off to them right away, and instead I bought
Re:Completely Legal (Score:5, Insightful)
Now you have companies fighting to protect #2, at the expense of the customer. In a free market, if someone can do something better or cheaper (or both), they should be able to win out. But instead, companies are being allowed to litigate away any competition rather than allow market forces to decide.
Re:Completely Legal (Score:3, Interesting)
Libertarians and other supporters of free enterprise should be with the EFF and the cartridge companies on this case.
Re:Completely Legal (Score:3, Informative)
But, Brand X decided to sell their own replacement cartridges for Lexmark printers. They had to make cartridges that could t
Ink prices... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ink prices... (Score:2, Insightful)
Uh, since 1890, when the US Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act?
I'll definately grant that printer prices (at least for the consumer models) would go up if ink went down. I think the question no-one is asking is: What's so bad about cheap printers and expensive ink? Most of the people I know who buy personal printers don't use them much--ink is a rare purchase. Over the lifetime of the printer, I wouldn't be surprised if the curren
The Panasonic Matrix (Score:3, Interesting)
I wouldn't buy a Lexmark printer, but I wouldn't buy one before this lawsuit either because when I hear the name Lexmark I think of cheaply made crap that'll fall apart in six months. My Panasonic printer is close to ten years old
Lexmark Don't even need the DMCA (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Lexmark Don't even need the DMCA (Score:2)
Oh wait, that one never happened. The difference is important however. Games are not consumables, ink is.
Re:Lexmark Don't even need the DMCA (Score:2, Informative)
As I recall, the details of that case were that Nintendo had patented a chip that would allow licensed game cartridges to work in the NES. On the claim that they were going to sue Nintendo, the folks at Tengen had a look at the patent, and figured out how to make a chip that would allow their games to work in the NES without paying for the license. Tengen lost the case because it was not a clean room reverse engineering with virgins and all that, but based on
About time! (Score:5, Insightful)
The height of absurdity to me is the infamous HP example. On more than one occasion, I've walked into a store and learned that replacing my HP printer altogether was cheaper than buying ink cartridge refills. Compare, $25 for a B&W cartridge + $35 for a color cartridge = $60 total. Cost of that HP DeskJet on sale at Office Depot? $50, and you get an entirely new printer!
No, this is completely wrong. Standards must be developed. Good, compatible knock-offs must be designed. While there is competition for printers themselves, there is no competition for the ink cartridges. Once a company ropes a customer into their printer, they'll milk them for all its worth.
Re:About time! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:About time! (Score:3, Informative)
Warning labels (Score:5, Insightful)
Death to Lexmark! Viva 'le Color Laser! (Score:2)
The people who say 'don't buy one' aren't taking bundled units into account.
I don't see why Lexmark doesn't give up the chip BS and just make the carts so small as to print one page, no matter what. :P
Any suggestions for good color laser printers with Ethernet that don't bre
Re:Death to Lexmark! Viva 'le Color Laser! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Death to Lexmark! Viva 'le Color Laser! (Score:2)
.:diatonic:.
Re:Death to Lexmark! Viva 'le Color Laser! (Score:4, Informative)
The razor, razorblade model (Score:5, Interesting)
There are so many players in the inkjet printer space that they are sometimes shooting themselves in the foot by going with this model. No manufacturer can offer printers at cost now because nobody would pay $250 for an inkjet. But at the same time, they lose money like crazy on certain types of buyers. Business travelers often buy a cheap printer at their destination rather than pack one. Consumers often get a new printer with each new computer they buy because the added cost in negligible. There are so many used printers out there, that they often cannot be given away.
The industry itself would benifit from reform in this area. However, to make it happen, all manufacturers will have to charge more for printers and less for cartridges. If even one player sticks with the old model, that player will see all the gains.
Re:The razor, razorblade model (Score:5, Insightful)
> have to charge more for printers and less for
> cartridges. If even one player sticks with the old
> model, that player will see all the gains.
Unfortunatley, that's not how the US economy works. The only way to fix this sort problem is to let things get so bad that the companies involved go bankrupt, letting better run companies take thier place.
Which, incidentialy, is why Lexmark is doing this stunt, to prevent going bankrupt. The profit margin has been cut so low by underselling printers that they can't afford to let people use generic brand cartridges. Even if the population that knows generic brands even exist is one or two percent of the total, that's a significant amount of money the company will lose.
I think the "reform" will eventually happen naturally, the business model works well for cheap stuff like razorblades but for more expensive items the system is flawed.
It could be hastened by government regulation, but I'm not sure getting the government involved is neccessarily a good idea.
Re:The razor, razorblade model (Score:3, Interesting)
Funny.. I just paid $350.00 for my canon inkjet.
and my ink costs about $14.00 for each color. yes EACH color... if I run out of cyan... I plug in a cyan...
also my printer will kick the crap out of anything hp or lexmark sells in quality and capability...
Yes there are LOTS of us out here that will pay for a real inkjet printer..
printer warnings... (Score:5, Informative)
I'd recommend against purchasing Epson inkjet printers. The last one we had, a 740i, had its jets clog up beyond repair. no matter how many times I'd run the cleaning function it wouldn't print, and even taking the think apart and trying to soak the print head in alcohol would help.
Apparently there's posts I found on some newsgroup that recommend at least cleaning/printing from that printer once a week or more...we would only use the printer occasionally.
So watch out and read those user reviews before you purchase a printer!
Re:printer warnings... (Score:2)
I have had a similar problem with a Canon: There's a sponge and a gasket the are supposed to cap off the print head when parked. They were worn and didn't form a good seal; so, a cartridge would only last a week or two before drying out.
Re:printer warnings... (Score:2)
Make that *wouldn't*. Darn typos...
Also, make that *thing* instead of *think*. D'oh!
Wide open market... (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it just me, or does it seem like there has to be some meeting of the minds among the manufacturers to keep it that way? I mean, why isn't there some rebel manufacturer making printers that cost 3 or 4 times as much, but take bulk ink/toner that would cost practically nothing?
This acutally IS monopolistic. (Score:5, Informative)
The PRINTER market is not monopolized. However printers and printer INK are two different things. By denying other ink makers the right to compete at all, Lexmark is creating a situation in which only they can sell a product. They are creating a little ink monopoly. This is illegal.
Now, whether or not the courts will see it that way or not, who the hell knows?
Re:This acutally IS monopolistic. (Score:2)
Other dirty tricks of the printer industry (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Other dirty tricks of the printer industry (Score:2)
Because that's what the consumer wants. They've got their fancy digital camera and they want a hardcopy.
Test pages... Demo Pages
Are supposed to demonstrate the printers capabilities; so, of course they print an image.
Photo Software... Presentation Software... Publishing Software
Why did you bother buying a color printer?
Composite black
Now That one I Hate too....
Re:Other dirty tricks of the printer industry (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, I would love to see printers ship with decent audio editing packages for once
Blah blah blah (Score:2, Insightful)
It seems to me.. (Score:5, Insightful)
What's next, prosecuting with the DMCA for sticking a needle into the cart.. "Circumvention"
Lexmark Exec: We need titanium casings
Manufacturer: No problem, anything else?
Lexmark Exec: How about special paper with DRM on it that the printer recognizes and only prints to?
Manufacturer: Done
Re:It seems to me.. (Score:2)
Epson vs. Canon ink level reading (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Epson vs. Canon ink level reading (Score:2)
While we're bitching about printers (Score:2)
Re:While we're bitching about printers (Score:2)
disassemble the thing and put the print head in some alcohol to soak for a couple of days. Then re-assemble the printer with full ink cartridges, prime it and try printing a test page. This has worked for me once or twice in the past. It's also failed about as often...
Just a thought before you toss the thing into the trash.
Buying a printer cheaper than cartidges? (Score:5, Informative)
Forget for a moment what you're doing to the environment (just for a moment, then go sit in the corner and be ashamed of yourself for 5 minutes), those cartidges that come with that cheap printer are "starter" cartridges - even if you can't find the fine print where it says that. So if the ones that came with your printer lasted you 6 months, crack open your wallet and spend the $25-$75 for a new set of cartridges that will probably last you a year or two. It'll save you money in the long run, and you'll be putting a lot less plastic in a landfill somewhere.
Re:In cheap market, always buy a new printer, not (Score:3, Informative)
It's way too expensive also. (Score:5, Interesting)
According to ThisIsLondon [thisislondon.com], Ink for home printers are 7 times more expensive [thisislondon.com] than vintage champagne.
They also claim that ignoring low ink warnings can double the life of ink cartridges. I wish I could ignore the warnings, as my Lexmark [lexmark.com] printer forbids me to print once 75% of ink is gone!
Those greedy pigs!
NetFlix business model for printers? (Score:2)
Sure, it seems kind of insane, but so does a printer that costs less money than the set of replacement ink cartridges it requires.
T
Re:NetFlix business model for printers? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:NetFlix business model for printers? (Score:2)
And I'm talking about doing it with lower-cost printers that ordinary consumers would use, not high-end/high-volume models that you'd see in places that live or die by their ability to crank out prints/copies.
~Philly
Link to a nice printer, cheap carts. (Score:2, Funny)
Sure, this printer costs more, but it is built to last. The ink tanks are large, easily serviced and refilled, and can be filled with third party ink. (For best results use OEM ink)
You can find it here [notachanceinhell.com].
.
The 404 'Not Found' is telling, dontchathink?
CCIA also filed an amicus brief (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not about the inkjets people. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Surely... (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, yes, that's the point (Score:2)
What did you think the point of the law was?
It's a way to sue others into obilvion. Whoever has the most lawyers wins. End of story. That was the whole point of the law!
Re:Surely... (Score:2)
-j
Re:I agree with Lexmark (Score:2, Insightful)
I hope you're a troll, and the person who wrote this comment sees how absurd it is.
Re:I agree with Lexmark (Score:2)
There's certainly nothing that prevents you or anyone else from marketing your own "refillable" link of inkjets. So do it!
Re:I agree with Lexmark (Score:2)
I have stated a fact that most refills are junk and this is the method of quality control Lexmark uses. Do you think it fair that they sell the printer below cost just to have someone who is cheap send it back when they damage it with cheap ink so that Lexmark can lose even more money on it?
It's not quality control - it's their business model to lose money on the printer and make it back on the ink. Sure, it sucks to have someone come and take the ink market from you, but that's just a bad business decis
Re:question (Score:3, Insightful)
You can even pick up an old HP laserjet 4L of ebay for like £20. Give the paper rollers a clean and those things go on for ever.
Re:question (Score:5, Interesting)
Both HP and Lexmark cartridges are so expensive, in part, because the print head and some of it's intelligence is built into the cartridge.
Re:Who cares... (Score:2)
Hard copy... Eewwwww.
Re:Disposable Printers (Score:2)
I bought a z23. I paid $20 (and that's why I bought the printer). It came only with a black "starter" cartridge which contained less than 1/4 the ink of a full cartridge. I ended up buying the $65 worth of cartridges anyway (that same day).
Yes, they're disposable -- their life expectancy is on the order of a year (of modest use) and they're not repairable.